Discussion:
Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham, Discoverer of Whittle Springs 1845
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Brad Verity
2007-04-23 00:23:47 UTC
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The Brighams were a lesser East Riding gentry family whose chief
estate was the manor of Brigham in the parish of Foston. At the 1612
Visitation they claimed descent going back to the 12th century, and
provided an indenture that at least placed the family in the reign of
Edward III. None of the family heads appeared to take any major role
in county affairs, though about three of them received knighthood, the
most recent being Sir Ralph Brigham of Brigham in the early 16th
century. It was his grandson and namesake, Ralph Brigham (1583-1656),
who first married into the bloodline of Edward III when he took Mary
Cresswell as his wife. The other major holding of the Brighams was
the manor of Wyton in Holderness (East Yorkshire). Also in Holdrness
was the township of Nunkeeling, where Mary's father Ralph Cresswell
was seated. Cresswell was a firm Catholic and nonconformist, and as
the Brighams were as well, the union of the two families is easily
understood. Ralph Brigham's grandson John Brigham (1637-1710)
inherited the manor of Dunnington (in Beeford parish) from his
Creswell great-uncle in about 1672. The subsequent family continued
to not have any significant part in county affairs. Wyton was sold in
1767, and family head William Brigham (see A14 below) sold their
estate at Brigham and settled in Manchester.

His son and heir William Brigham, a Fellow of the Royal College of
Surgeons, moved to Foxley House in Lymm, Cheshire. In 1845, while on
a walk with a friend in the Whittle area of Chorley, Lancashire, Dr.
Brigham drank from spring water bubbling up from old coal workings,
recognized its carbonated alkali content, and worked hard to promote
the medicinal quality of the water. The resulting spa, Whittle
Springs, became one of the most popular spas in Britain in the
mid-19th century. Dr. Brigham was able to buy some land back in
Brigham and erect a monument to the family's origins. His 7 descents
from Joan Beaufort are as follows.

Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), had 3 daughters
(A1, B1 & F1)

A1) Mary Ferrers, Lady Neville of Oversley (1394-1458), had
A2) John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had
A3) Joan Neville m. Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe, Yorks. (d.
1463), and had
A4) Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (c.1450-1487) m. Margaret Percy
(see B3 below),and had
A5) Elizabeth Gascoigne (d. 1559) m. by 1493 George Tailboys, 9th Lord
Kyme (c.1467-1538), and had
A6) Cecily Tailboys m. 1) William Ingleby of Ripley, Yorks., and had
A7) John Ingleby of Hutton Rudby, Yorks., 3rd son (d. 1608) m. 1) Anne
Clapham, and had
A8) Elizabeth Ingleby m. Ralph Cresswell of Nun Keeling, Yorks., and
had
A9) Mary Cresswell m. Ralph Brigham of Brigham, Yorks. (1583-1656),
and had
A10) William Brigham of Brigham and Wyton (1612-c.1670) m. Ursula
Langley, and had
A11) John Brigham of Brigham and Wyton (1637-1710) m. 1669 Mary
Meynell (see C11 below), and had
A12) Roger Brigham of Brigham and Wyton (d. 1729) m. 1711 Elizabeth
Charlton, and had
A13) John Brigham of Brigham and Crathorne (1724-1792) m. Anne
Metcalfe, and had
A14) William Brigham of Brigham, then Manchester (1759-1815) m. 1783
Sarah Cresswell (d. 1834), and had
A15) William Brigham of Foxley House, Cheshire (born 18 February 1792)

B1) Eleanor Nevill, Countess of Northumberland (d. 1473), who had
(with G2 below)
B2) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461), who had (with
C3 below)
B3) Margaret Percy m. Sir William Gascoigne (see A4 above)

C3) Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (1449-1489) m. 1472 Maud
Herbert, and had
C4) Henry Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland (1478-1527) m. c.1490
Katherine Spencer (1477-1542, descendant of Edward III but not thru
Joan Beaufort), and had
C5) Lady Margaret Percy (c.1495-1540) m. 1513 Henry Clifford, 1st Earl
of Cumberland (c.1493-1542, descendant of Edward III but not thru Joan
Beaufort), and had
C6) Lady Katherine Clifford (1518-1598) m. 1) c.1530 John, 8th Lord
Scrope of Bolton (see D5 below), and had
C7) Elizabeth Scrope (c.1535-1620) m. c.1555 Thomas Pudsey of Barforth
(see G6 below), and had
C8) Winifred Pudsey (1570-1604) m. 1587 Thomas Meynell of North
Kilvington, Yorks. (1564-1653), and had
C9) Anthony Meynell of North Kilvington (1592-1669) m. 1613 Mary
Thwaites (d. 1669), and had
C10) Thomas Meynell of North Kilvington (1614-16-) m. 1637 Gerard
Ireland, and had
C11) Mary Meynell m. 1669 John Brigham of Brigham (see A11 above)

D3) Elizabeth Percy m. Henry, 6th Lord Scrope of Bolton (d. 1506), and
had
D4) Henry, 7th Lord Scrope of Bolton (c.1480-1533) m. 2) Mabel Dacre
(see E5 below), and had
D5) John, 8th Lord Scrope of Bolton (c.1515-1549) m. c.1530 Lady
Katherine Clifford (see C6 above)

E2) Katherine Percy, Countess of Kent (1423-1504), who had
E3) Elizabeth Grey (d. 1472) m. Sir Robert Greystoke (see F3 below),
and had
E4) Elizabeth Greystoke (1471-1516) m. 1487 Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre
(1467-1525), and had
E5) Mabel Dacre (c.1490-aft. 1533) m. Henry, 7th Lord Scrope of Bolton
(seeD4 above)

F1) Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke (1393-1434), who had (with G2
below)
F2) Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke (c.1414-1487), who had
F3) Sir Robert Greystoke (d. 1483) m. 1) Elizabeth Grey (see E3 above)

G2) Eleanor Greystoke m. Sir Ralph Eure of Witton Castle (d. 1461),
and had
G3) Sir William Eure of Witton (1440-1484) m. Margaret Constable, and
had
G4) Sir Ralph Eure of Witton (d. 1540) m. 2)1516 Agnes Constable, and
had
G5) Joan Eure (c.1516-15-) m. 1)1530 Henry Pudsey of Barforth
(1514-1533), and had
G6) Thomas Pudsey of Barforth (1531-1576) m. c.1555 Elizabeth Scrope
(see C7 above)

Cheers, ----------Brad
Brad Verity
2007-05-07 21:00:05 UTC
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On Apr 22, 5:23 pm, Brad Verity <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dr.Brigham was able to buy some land back in Brighamand erect a monument to the family's origins. His 7 descents
> from Joan Beaufort are as follows.

Dr. Brigham actually had 10 descents from Joan Beaufort, including one
thru Edward IV (Line I below). The additional descents are the
following, with Line G from the original post now Line H.

Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), had 1 son (J1)
and 4 daughters (A1, B1, F1 & I1)

F1) Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke (1393-1434), who had (with H2
below)
F2) Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke (c.1414-1487), who had (with G3 below)
F3) Sir Robert Greystoke (d. 1483) m. 1) Elizabeth Grey (see E3
above)

G3) Elizabeth Greystoke (d. 1490) m. 1) Thomas, 5th Lord Scrope of
Masham (c.1430-1475), and had
G4) Margery Scrope (d. aft. 1531) m. 1493 Sir Christopher Danby of
Thorpe Perrow (d. 1518), and had
G5) Sir Christopher Danby of Thorpe Perrow (1503-1571) m. Elizabeth
Nevill (see J4 below) and had
G6) Margaret Danby (c.1525-15--) m. Christopher Hopton of Armley Hall,
Yorks. (d. 1585), and had
G7) Susan Hopton m. Thomas Wentworth of Whitley, Yorks. (1542-15--),
and had
G8) Michael Wentworth of Woolley, Yorks. (d. 1641) m. 1585 Frances
Downes (d. by 1639), and had
G9) Mary Wentworth (liv. 1660) m. 1611 Richard Langley of Millington
(see I9 below), and had
G10) Ursula Langley m. William Brigham of Brigham (see A10 above)

H2) Eleanor Greystoke m. Sir Ralph Eure of Witton Castle (d. 1461),
and had
H3) Sir William Eure of Witton (1440-1484) m. Margaret Constable, and
had
H4) Sir Ralph Eure of Witton (d. 1540) m. 2)1516 Agnes Constable, and
had
H5) Joan Eure (c.1516-15-) m. 1)1530 Henry Pudsey of Barforth
(1514-1533), and had
H6) Thomas Pudsey of Barforth (1531-1576) m. c.1555 Elizabeth Scrope
(see C7 above)

I1) Cecily Nevill, Duchess of York (1415-1495), who had
I2) Edward IV, King of England (1442-1483), who had
I3) Elizabeth 'Plantagenet' (illeg.) m. Sir Thomas Lumley, and had
I4) Roger Lumley of Ludworth m. Isabel Ratcliffe, and had
I5) Anne Lumley m. Anthony Trollope of Thornley, co. Durham, and had
I6) John Trollope of Thornley m. Maud Metham, and had
I7) Margaret Trollope m. John Rudston of Hayton, Yorks. (d. 1597), and
had
I8) Ursula Rudston m. 1)Christopher Langley of Millington, Yorks.
(1565-1592), and had
I9) Richard Langley of Millington (d. 1628) m. 1611 Mary Wentworth
(see G9 above)

J1) George Nevill, 1st Lord Latimer (c.1411-1469), who had
J2) Sir Henry Nevill (d. 1469) m. Joan Bourchier (d. 1470, descended
from Edward III but not thru Joan Beaufort), and had
J3) Richard Nevill, 2nd Lord Latimer (1468-1530) m. 1)1483 Anne
Stafford, and had
J4) Elizabeth Nevill (1500-15-) m. Sir Christopher Danby of Thorpe
Perrow (see G5 above)

Cheers, ----Brad
John Higgins
2007-05-08 03:58:45 UTC
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This is another interesting and useful descent. I believe I can provide an
11th Joan Beaufort descent for Dr. William Brigham, and I have a couple of
questions on the Lumley connection.

Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke, also had a daughter Elizabeth who mar.
Roger Thornton of Newcastle. This couple had a daughter Elizabeth who mar.
George, Lord Lumley [see CP 8:273-4]. Their son Thomas was the one who is
said to have mar. Elizabeth, the illegitimate dau. of Edward IV.

The statement that the wife of Roger Lumley of Ludworth was Isabel Ratcliffe
is interesting. Leo's Genealogics database gives this wife for Roger, but
neither of the sources he cites for Roger (Paget and Burke's Extinct
Peerages) give Roger a wife, and no source is given for Isabel. In addition
Leo gives a wife Isabelle [sic] Ratcliffe to Roger's uncle, another Roger,
citing in this case Cahiers de St. Louis. But a detailed Lumley pedigree in
Surtees' Durham, 2:163, gives no wives for either of the Rogers. Is there a
good source for this Isabel?

Also, pedigrees for both the Lumley and Trollope families indicate that the
Lumley daughter who mar. Thomas Trollope was Margaret, not Anne (who mar.
John Lambton).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <***@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham,Discoverer of
Whittle Springs 1845


> On Apr 22, 5:23 pm, Brad Verity <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dr.Brigham was able to buy some land back in Brighamand erect a monument
to the family's origins. His 7 descents
> > from Joan Beaufort are as follows.
>
> Dr. Brigham actually had 10 descents from Joan Beaufort, including one
> thru Edward IV (Line I below). The additional descents are the
> following, with Line G from the original post now Line H.
>
> Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), had 1 son (J1)
> and 4 daughters (A1, B1, F1 & I1)
>
> F1) Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke (1393-1434), who had (with H2
> below)
> F2) Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke (c.1414-1487), who had (with G3 below)
> F3) Sir Robert Greystoke (d. 1483) m. 1) Elizabeth Grey (see E3
> above)
>
> G3) Elizabeth Greystoke (d. 1490) m. 1) Thomas, 5th Lord Scrope of
> Masham (c.1430-1475), and had
> G4) Margery Scrope (d. aft. 1531) m. 1493 Sir Christopher Danby of
> Thorpe Perrow (d. 1518), and had
> G5) Sir Christopher Danby of Thorpe Perrow (1503-1571) m. Elizabeth
> Nevill (see J4 below) and had
> G6) Margaret Danby (c.1525-15--) m. Christopher Hopton of Armley Hall,
> Yorks. (d. 1585), and had
> G7) Susan Hopton m. Thomas Wentworth of Whitley, Yorks. (1542-15--),
> and had
> G8) Michael Wentworth of Woolley, Yorks. (d. 1641) m. 1585 Frances
> Downes (d. by 1639), and had
> G9) Mary Wentworth (liv. 1660) m. 1611 Richard Langley of Millington
> (see I9 below), and had
> G10) Ursula Langley m. William Brigham of Brigham (see A10 above)
>
> H2) Eleanor Greystoke m. Sir Ralph Eure of Witton Castle (d. 1461),
> and had
> H3) Sir William Eure of Witton (1440-1484) m. Margaret Constable, and
> had
> H4) Sir Ralph Eure of Witton (d. 1540) m. 2)1516 Agnes Constable, and
> had
> H5) Joan Eure (c.1516-15-) m. 1)1530 Henry Pudsey of Barforth
> (1514-1533), and had
> H6) Thomas Pudsey of Barforth (1531-1576) m. c.1555 Elizabeth Scrope
> (see C7 above)
>
> I1) Cecily Nevill, Duchess of York (1415-1495), who had
> I2) Edward IV, King of England (1442-1483), who had
> I3) Elizabeth 'Plantagenet' (illeg.) m. Sir Thomas Lumley, and had
> I4) Roger Lumley of Ludworth m. Isabel Ratcliffe, and had
> I5) Anne Lumley m. Anthony Trollope of Thornley, co. Durham, and had
> I6) John Trollope of Thornley m. Maud Metham, and had
> I7) Margaret Trollope m. John Rudston of Hayton, Yorks. (d. 1597), and
> had
> I8) Ursula Rudston m. 1)Christopher Langley of Millington, Yorks.
> (1565-1592), and had
> I9) Richard Langley of Millington (d. 1628) m. 1611 Mary Wentworth
> (see G9 above)
>
> J1) George Nevill, 1st Lord Latimer (c.1411-1469), who had
> J2) Sir Henry Nevill (d. 1469) m. Joan Bourchier (d. 1470, descended
> from Edward III but not thru Joan Beaufort), and had
> J3) Richard Nevill, 2nd Lord Latimer (1468-1530) m. 1)1483 Anne
> Stafford, and had
> J4) Elizabeth Nevill (1500-15-) m. Sir Christopher Danby of Thorpe
> Perrow (see G5 above)
>
> Cheers, ----Brad
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Brad Verity
2007-05-08 19:50:16 UTC
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Dear John,

Comments interspersed.

On May 7, 8:58 pm, "John Higgins" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> This is another interesting and useful descent. I believe I can provide an
> 11th Joan Beaufort descent for Dr.WilliamBrigham, and I have a couple of
> questions on the Lumley connection.

Many thanks for the reminder of the Greystoke/Thornton/Lumley descent
- another one I had completely overlooked.

> Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke, also had a daughter Elizabeth who mar.
> Roger Thornton of Newcastle. This couple had a daughter Elizabeth who mar.
> George, Lord Lumley [see CP 8:273-4]. Their son Thomas was the one who is
> said to have mar. Elizabeth, the illegitimate dau. of Edward IV.

I'll revise the lines of descent with this addition, and post it
separately. This adds an additional Joan Beaufort descent for Bridget
Belasyse of Brancepeth as well.

> The statement that the wife of Roger Lumley of Ludworth was Isabel Ratcliffe
> is interesting. Leo's Genealogics database gives this wife for Roger, but
> neither of the sources he cites for Roger (Paget and Burke's Extinct
> Peerages) give Roger a wife, and no source is given for Isabel.

I'll have to double-check my Ratcliffe file when I get home, but I
think the source for her marriage to Roger Lumley is either the Sir
Richard Ratcliffe bio in the new Oxford DNB, or the Henry VII
Relations pedigrees of about 1500-1505.

> In addition
> Leo gives a wife Isabelle [sic] Ratcliffe to Roger's uncle, another Roger,
> citing in this case Cahiers de St. Louis.

Cahiers must have confused the two uncle-nephew Roger Lumleys, as
Edith Milner did in her 1904 book 'Records of the Lumleys of Lumley
Castle'. Isabel Ratcliffe would have been born at some point in the
1477-1485 range, and would not have been a mother until the 1500s - a
chronology which works much better for the younger Roger Lumley.

Isabel Ratcliffe's elder half-brother Henry Boynton had married a
Lumley heiress, and he likely helped arrange Isabel's marriage to a
Lumley.

> But a detailed Lumley pedigree in
> Surtees' Durham, 2:163, gives no wives for either of the Rogers. Is there a
> good source for this Isabel?

See above.

> Also, pedigrees for both the Lumley and Trollope families indicate that the
> Lumley daughter who mar. Thomas Trollope was Margaret, not Anne (who mar.
> John Lambton).

I took the name 'Anne' from VCH Durham Vol. 3:

This Robert Hayton had a son William who married a certain Alice,
probably of the family of Lumley of Ludworth. (fn. 102) On this
marriage the quarter of Seaton Carew was settled. William Hayton
apparently died childless, and the manor was reconveyed to trustees to
hold for Alice during her life, with reversion to Roger Lumley of
Ludworth. Alice married as her second husband Roger Booth, and after
her death in 1548 it was found that the reversion of the quarter of
Seaton Carew had been settled by Roger Lumley on the marriage of his
daughter Anne with Thomas Trollope of Thornley (fn. 103) (q.v.). It
was inherited by Thomas's son John Trollope, who in 1563 sold it to
Bertram Anderson. (fn. 104)

Thomas Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. I, and his
son John Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. II (both on
my list to copy at my next Library visit), and the editors identify
Thomas's first wife as Anne, daughter of Roger Lumley, in both
instances. John Lambton's wife was Agnes Lumley, no doubt named for
her maternal grandmother Agnes Scrope.

Cheers, ---------Brad
John Higgins
2007-05-08 23:21:55 UTC
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With respect to Isabel Ratcliffe, the wife of Roger Lumley of Ludworth,
although the Lumley pedigree in Surtees' Durham 2:163 does not give Roger a
wife, a Radclyffe pedigree in Surtees' Durham 1:32 does show Isabel as the
wife of this Roger (and specifically the younger Roger, not his uncle
Roger). Isabel is shown here as the daughter of Sir Richard Radclyffe
[sic], who d. at Bosworth, and his wife Agnes Scrope, dau. of Henry, Lord
Scrope of Bolton. This Sir Richard Ratcliffe or Radclyffe (of the
Derwentwater branch of the family) is of course the one immortalized in the
ditty about the reign of Richard III: " The cat, the rat, and Lovell our dog
ruled all England under a hog".

With respect to the daughters of Roger Lumley of Ludworth, you are of course
correct that it was Agnes [not Anne] who mar. John Lambton - at some point
in the past I read Agnes but typed in Anne. And the Trollope wills you cite
clearly indicate that the daughter who mar. Thomas Trollope was Anne,
although the pedigrees of both families call her Margaret.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <***@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham,Discoverer of
Whittle Springs 1845


> Dear John,
>
> Comments interspersed.
>
> On May 7, 8:58 pm, "John Higgins" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > This is another interesting and useful descent. I believe I can provide
an
> > 11th Joan Beaufort descent for Dr.WilliamBrigham, and I have a couple of
> > questions on the Lumley connection.
>
> Many thanks for the reminder of the Greystoke/Thornton/Lumley descent
> - another one I had completely overlooked.
>
> > Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke, also had a daughter Elizabeth who
mar.
> > Roger Thornton of Newcastle. This couple had a daughter Elizabeth who
mar.
> > George, Lord Lumley [see CP 8:273-4]. Their son Thomas was the one who
is
> > said to have mar. Elizabeth, the illegitimate dau. of Edward IV.
>
> I'll revise the lines of descent with this addition, and post it
> separately. This adds an additional Joan Beaufort descent for Bridget
> Belasyse of Brancepeth as well.
>
> > The statement that the wife of Roger Lumley of Ludworth was Isabel
Ratcliffe
> > is interesting. Leo's Genealogics database gives this wife for Roger,
but
> > neither of the sources he cites for Roger (Paget and Burke's Extinct
> > Peerages) give Roger a wife, and no source is given for Isabel.
>
> I'll have to double-check my Ratcliffe file when I get home, but I
> think the source for her marriage to Roger Lumley is either the Sir
> Richard Ratcliffe bio in the new Oxford DNB, or the Henry VII
> Relations pedigrees of about 1500-1505.
>
> > In addition
> > Leo gives a wife Isabelle [sic] Ratcliffe to Roger's uncle, another
Roger,
> > citing in this case Cahiers de St. Louis.
>
> Cahiers must have confused the two uncle-nephew Roger Lumleys, as
> Edith Milner did in her 1904 book 'Records of the Lumleys of Lumley
> Castle'. Isabel Ratcliffe would have been born at some point in the
> 1477-1485 range, and would not have been a mother until the 1500s - a
> chronology which works much better for the younger Roger Lumley.
>
> Isabel Ratcliffe's elder half-brother Henry Boynton had married a
> Lumley heiress, and he likely helped arrange Isabel's marriage to a
> Lumley.
>
> > But a detailed Lumley pedigree in
> > Surtees' Durham, 2:163, gives no wives for either of the Rogers. Is
there a
> > good source for this Isabel?
>
> See above.
>
> > Also, pedigrees for both the Lumley and Trollope families indicate that
the
> > Lumley daughter who mar. Thomas Trollope was Margaret, not Anne (who
mar.
> > John Lambton).
>
> I took the name 'Anne' from VCH Durham Vol. 3:
>
> This Robert Hayton had a son William who married a certain Alice,
> probably of the family of Lumley of Ludworth. (fn. 102) On this
> marriage the quarter of Seaton Carew was settled. William Hayton
> apparently died childless, and the manor was reconveyed to trustees to
> hold for Alice during her life, with reversion to Roger Lumley of
> Ludworth. Alice married as her second husband Roger Booth, and after
> her death in 1548 it was found that the reversion of the quarter of
> Seaton Carew had been settled by Roger Lumley on the marriage of his
> daughter Anne with Thomas Trollope of Thornley (fn. 103) (q.v.). It
> was inherited by Thomas's son John Trollope, who in 1563 sold it to
> Bertram Anderson. (fn. 104)
>
> Thomas Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. I, and his
> son John Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. II (both on
> my list to copy at my next Library visit), and the editors identify
> Thomas's first wife as Anne, daughter of Roger Lumley, in both
> instances. John Lambton's wife was Agnes Lumley, no doubt named for
> her maternal grandmother Agnes Scrope.
>
> Cheers, ---------Brad
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Brad Verity
2007-05-08 20:06:48 UTC
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On May 7, 2:00 pm, Brad Verity <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dr. Brigham actually had 10 descents from Joan Beaufort, including one
> thru Edward IV (Line I below). The additional descents are the
> following, with Line G from the original post now Line H.

Thanks to John Higgins, another descent from Joan Beaufort for Dr.
Brigham has emerged. It is given below as Line I. The Edward IV
descent is now Line J and the Latimer descent now Line K.

Joan Beaufort had 1 son (K1) and 4 daughters (A1, B1, F1 & J1)

F1) Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke (1393-1434), who had (with H2 &
I2 below)
F2) Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke (c.1414-1487), who had (with G3 below)
F3) Sir Robert Greystoke (d. 1483) m. 1) Elizabeth Grey (see E3
above)

G3) Elizabeth Greystoke (d. 1490) m. 1) Thomas, 5th Lord Scrope of
Masham (c.1430-1475), and had
G4) Margery Scrope (d. aft. 1531) m. 1493 Sir Christopher Danby of
Thorpe Perrow (d. 1518), and had
G5) Sir Christopher Danby of Thorpe Perrow (1503-1571) m. Elizabeth
Nevill (see K4 below) and had
G6) Margaret Danby (c.1525-15--) m. Christopher Hopton of Armley Hall,
Yorks. (d. 1585), and had
G7) Susan Hopton m. Thomas Wentworth of Whitley, Yorks. (1542-15--),
and had
G8) Michael Wentworth of Woolley, Yorks. (d. 1641) m. 1585 Frances
Downes (d. by 1639), and had
G9) Mary Wentworth (liv. 1660) m. 1611 Richard Langley of Millington
(see I9 below), and had
G10) Ursula Langley m. William Brigham of Brigham (see A10 above)

H2) Eleanor Greystoke m. Sir Ralph Eure of Witton Castle (d. 1461),
and had
H3) Sir William Eure of Witton (1440-1484) m. Margaret Constable, and
had
H4) Sir Ralph Eure of Witton (d. 1540) m. 2)1516 Agnes Constable, and
had
H5) Joan Eure (c.1516-15-) m. 1)1530 Henry Pudsey of Barforth
(1514-1533), and had
H6) Thomas Pudsey of Barforth (1531-1576) m. c.1555 Elizabeth Scrope
(see C7 above)

I2) Elizabeth Greystoke (d. 1440) m. Roger Thornton of The Isle, co.
Durham (d. 1471), and had
I3) Elizabeth Thornton (d. by 1477) m. George Lumley, 2nd Lord Lumley
(d. 1507), and had
I4) Sir Thomas Lumley (living 1495) m. Elizabeth 'Plantagenet' (see J3
below), and had
I5) Roger Lumley of Ludworth m. Isabel Ratcliffe, and had
I6) Anne Lumley m. Anthony Trollope of Thornley, co. Durham, and had
I7) John Trollope of Thornley m. Maud Metham, and had
I8) Margaret Trollope m. John Rudston of Hayton, Yorks. (d. 1597), and
had
I9) Ursula Rudston m. 1)Christopher Langley of Millington, Yorks.
(1565-1592), and had
I10) Richard Langley of Millington (d. 1628) m. 1611 Mary Wentworth
(see G9 above)

J1) Cecily Nevill, Duchess of York (1415-1495), who had
J2) Edward IV, King of England (1442-1483), who had
J3) Elizabeth 'Plantagenet' (illeg.) m. Sir Thomas Lumley (see I4
above)

K1) George Nevill, 1st Lord Latimer (c.1411-1469), who had
K2) Sir Henry Nevill (d. 1469) m. Joan Bourchier (d. 1470, descended
from Edward III but not thru Joan Beaufort), and had
K3) Richard Nevill, 2nd Lord Latimer (1468-1530) m. 1)1483 Anne
Stafford, and had
K4) Elizabeth Nevill (1500-15-) m. Sir Christopher Danby of Thorpe
Perrow (see G5 above)

Cheers, -----Brad
WJhonson
2007-05-08 22:02:10 UTC
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You've repeated this "Anthony" a few times, but in your discussion you keep saying Anne married THOMAS Trollope.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 13:10:58 Pacific Standard Time, ***@hotmail.com writes:
I5) Roger Lumley of Ludworth m. Isabel Ratcliffe, and had
I6) Anne Lumley m. Anthony Trollope of Thornley, co. Durham, and had
I7) John Trollope of Thornley m. Maud Metham, and had
WJhonson
2007-05-08 23:25:43 UTC
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Brad I can connect Anthony Trollope the writer back to his forebears
Thomas Trollope, Bart of Casewick, created in 1641, died in 1651 and his second wife Mary Clitheroe dau of Sir Christopher Clitheroe of London.

Now can you complete the connection?
Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 15:14:20 Pacific Standard Time, ***@hotmail.com writes:
I wonder if he was
a descendant of Thomas?
John Higgins
2007-05-08 23:36:22 UTC
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See the Trollope pedigree on the Stirnet website for some CONJECTURE (note
emphasis) on the earlier ancestry of the branch of the Trollope family which
produced the famous author - including a highly speculative connection to
the Trollope family that Brad has mentioned.

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <***@aol.com>
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham,Discoverer of
Whittle Springs 1845


> Brad I can connect Anthony Trollope the writer back to his forebears
> Thomas Trollope, Bart of Casewick, created in 1641, died in 1651 and his
second wife Mary Clitheroe dau of Sir Christopher Clitheroe of London.
>
> Now can you complete the connection?
> Will Johnson
>
>
>
> In a message dated 05/08/07 15:14:20 Pacific Standard Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:
> I wonder if he was
> a descendant of Thomas?
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
WJhonson
2007-05-09 00:43:04 UTC
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A bit more on the ancestry of Anthony Trollope. For some reason I've found the baptisms of his family at Uffington, Lincoln from 1692 forward and again from about 1650 backward with some missing, but where were they *between* those years?


In a message dated 05/08/07 16:25:43 Pacific Standard Time, wjhonson writes:
Brad I can connect Anthony Trollope the writer back to his forebears
Thomas Trollope, Bart of Casewick, created in 1641, died in 1651 and his second wife Mary Clitheroe dau of Sir Christopher Clitheroe of London.

Now can you complete the connection?
Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 15:14:20 Pacific Standard Time, ***@hotmail.com writes:
I wonder if he was
a descendant of Thomas?
wjhonson
2007-05-12 02:27:21 UTC
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Well this is very special.
In a shocking and exciting *twist*

http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA442&dq=%22Cecil+Hall%22+coleby
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, by A R Maddison "Hall formerly FitzWilliam of
Grantham", pg 440

proclaims in bold language that "Anne dau of Sir Thomas Trollope,
Bart" was "bapt at Bourne 2 Jul 1619" and married as his second wife
Charles Hall of Kettlethorpe

I've been researching the HALL family today as many of them have low
Cecil Numbers.

But Bourne? What the heck were they doing at Bourne?
So being the glutton for punishment, I asked Familysearch and found
that the Register of Bourne has been extracted at least part. So for
the past few hours I've been editing it and low and behold....

Thomas Trollope married Hester on 9 Jun 1618 at Great Steeping,
Lincolnshire
I'm sure you recognize this as Thomas the Bart, marrying Hester
"Street" his first wife
They were the parents of the above Anne and also her next sibling Sir
William Trollope, 2nd Bart of Casewick.

This same Thomas married as his second wife that Mary Clitheroe who
bur 16 Jun 1688 and had Thomas Trollope of Barham who then after
several gen descends to that Anthony Trollope the author 1815-82

At any rate
http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8487&path=A+Genealogical+and+Heraldic+Dictionary+of+the+Peerage+and+Baronetage+of+the+British+Empire.T.unknown.32&sid=&gskw=anthony+trollope&cr=1

claims that Thomas Trollope the first Bart had for mother Alice Sharpe
dau of William Sharpe.... (get ready) of BOURNE and voila we have our
link.

At Bourne meanwhile (For baptisms see www.familysearch.org - IGI -
British Isles - Batch P011781)

we have Thomas Trollope bap 26 Feb 1595, the only Thomas of the right
age. So we now see he married at age 23 and had children until he was
about 50, which all fits and explains why I couldn't find his first
family before.

His father William Trollope must be that one bap 21 Feb 1562 at Bourne
as the son of Matthew Trollope. This Matthew also had a son Thomas
who died young bap 11 Nov 1565 at Bourne and died there 25 Sep 1571.

At Bourne, other than Matthew, having children in this *same* time
period we have a Thomas Trollope with children from 1562 to 1572 and a
William Trollope with children from 1562 to 1566 and possibly as late
as 1576. I submit that these three men might very well be Brothers.

An investigation into other documents, at Bourne, might shed light on
how they connect back, but at least here we get an extra one to two
generations of information.

Will Johnson
d***@gmail.com
2018-07-11 13:12:16 UTC
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Dear Mr Verity,

Delighted to locate some details of Dr William Brigham of Foxley House, Lymm.

I am descended from Henry Heys, the brother of Dr Brigham's friend at Whittle le Woods, John Heys. Dr Brigham and John Heys discovered the mineral springs at Whittle which led to the opening of a spa, the Heys Arms Hotel and eventually the Whittle Springs Brewery.

I should be interested to know more about Dr Brigham and his links with the Heys family, if you could give me a pointer. They all seem to have been Roman Catholics.

Good wishes,

David Cross






On Monday, 23 April 2007 01:23:47 UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
> The Brighams were a lesser East Riding gentry family whose chief
> estate was the manor of Brigham in the parish of Foston. At the 1612
> Visitation they claimed descent going back to the 12th century, and
> provided an indenture that at least placed the family in the reign of
> Edward III. None of the family heads appeared to take any major role
> in county affairs, though about three of them received knighthood, the
> most recent being Sir Ralph Brigham of Brigham in the early 16th
> century. It was his grandson and namesake, Ralph Brigham (1583-1656),
> who first married into the bloodline of Edward III when he took Mary
> Cresswell as his wife. The other major holding of the Brighams was
> the manor of Wyton in Holderness (East Yorkshire). Also in Holdrness
> was the township of Nunkeeling, where Mary's father Ralph Cresswell
> was seated. Cresswell was a firm Catholic and nonconformist, and as
> the Brighams were as well, the union of the two families is easily
> understood. Ralph Brigham's grandson John Brigham (1637-1710)
> inherited the manor of Dunnington (in Beeford parish) from his
> Creswell great-uncle in about 1672. The subsequent family continued
> to not have any significant part in county affairs. Wyton was sold in
> 1767, and family head William Brigham (see A14 below) sold their
> estate at Brigham and settled in Manchester.
>
> His son and heir William Brigham, a Fellow of the Royal College of
> Surgeons, moved to Foxley House in Lymm, Cheshire. In 1845, while on
> a walk with a friend in the Whittle area of Chorley, Lancashire, Dr.
> Brigham drank from spring water bubbling up from old coal workings,
> recognized its carbonated alkali content, and worked hard to promote
> the medicinal quality of the water. The resulting spa, Whittle
> Springs, became one of the most popular spas in Britain in the
> mid-19th century. Dr. Brigham was able to buy some land back in
> Brigham and erect a monument to the family's origins. His 7 descents
> from Joan Beaufort are as follows.
>
> Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), had 3 daughters
> (A1, B1 & F1)
>
> A1) Mary Ferrers, Lady Neville of Oversley (1394-1458), had
> A2) John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had
> A3) Joan Neville m. Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe, Yorks. (d.
> 1463), and had
> A4) Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (c.1450-1487) m. Margaret Percy
> (see B3 below),and had
> A5) Elizabeth Gascoigne (d. 1559) m. by 1493 George Tailboys, 9th Lord
> Kyme (c.1467-1538), and had
> A6) Cecily Tailboys m. 1) William Ingleby of Ripley, Yorks., and had
> A7) John Ingleby of Hutton Rudby, Yorks., 3rd son (d. 1608) m. 1) Anne
> Clapham, and had
> A8) Elizabeth Ingleby m. Ralph Cresswell of Nun Keeling, Yorks., and
> had
> A9) Mary Cresswell m. Ralph Brigham of Brigham, Yorks. (1583-1656),
> and had
> A10) William Brigham of Brigham and Wyton (1612-c.1670) m. Ursula
> Langley, and had
> A11) John Brigham of Brigham and Wyton (1637-1710) m. 1669 Mary
> Meynell (see C11 below), and had
> A12) Roger Brigham of Brigham and Wyton (d. 1729) m. 1711 Elizabeth
> Charlton, and had
> A13) John Brigham of Brigham and Crathorne (1724-1792) m. Anne
> Metcalfe, and had
> A14) William Brigham of Brigham, then Manchester (1759-1815) m. 1783
> Sarah Cresswell (d. 1834), and had
> A15) William Brigham of Foxley House, Cheshire (born 18 February 1792)
>
> B1) Eleanor Nevill, Countess of Northumberland (d. 1473), who had
> (with G2 below)
> B2) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461), who had (with
> C3 below)
> B3) Margaret Percy m. Sir William Gascoigne (see A4 above)
>
> C3) Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (1449-1489) m. 1472 Maud
> Herbert, and had
> C4) Henry Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland (1478-1527) m. c.1490
> Katherine Spencer (1477-1542, descendant of Edward III but not thru
> Joan Beaufort), and had
> C5) Lady Margaret Percy (c.1495-1540) m. 1513 Henry Clifford, 1st Earl
> of Cumberland (c.1493-1542, descendant of Edward III but not thru Joan
> Beaufort), and had
> C6) Lady Katherine Clifford (1518-1598) m. 1) c.1530 John, 8th Lord
> Scrope of Bolton (see D5 below), and had
> C7) Elizabeth Scrope (c.1535-1620) m. c.1555 Thomas Pudsey of Barforth
> (see G6 below), and had
> C8) Winifred Pudsey (1570-1604) m. 1587 Thomas Meynell of North
> Kilvington, Yorks. (1564-1653), and had
> C9) Anthony Meynell of North Kilvington (1592-1669) m. 1613 Mary
> Thwaites (d. 1669), and had
> C10) Thomas Meynell of North Kilvington (1614-16-) m. 1637 Gerard
> Ireland, and had
> C11) Mary Meynell m. 1669 John Brigham of Brigham (see A11 above)
>
> D3) Elizabeth Percy m. Henry, 6th Lord Scrope of Bolton (d. 1506), and
> had
> D4) Henry, 7th Lord Scrope of Bolton (c.1480-1533) m. 2) Mabel Dacre
> (see E5 below), and had
> D5) John, 8th Lord Scrope of Bolton (c.1515-1549) m. c.1530 Lady
> Katherine Clifford (see C6 above)
>
> E2) Katherine Percy, Countess of Kent (1423-1504), who had
> E3) Elizabeth Grey (d. 1472) m. Sir Robert Greystoke (see F3 below),
> and had
> E4) Elizabeth Greystoke (1471-1516) m. 1487 Thomas, 2nd Lord Dacre
> (1467-1525), and had
> E5) Mabel Dacre (c.1490-aft. 1533) m. Henry, 7th Lord Scrope of Bolton
> (seeD4 above)
>
> F1) Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke (1393-1434), who had (with G2
> below)
> F2) Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke (c.1414-1487), who had
> F3) Sir Robert Greystoke (d. 1483) m. 1) Elizabeth Grey (see E3 above)
>
> G2) Eleanor Greystoke m. Sir Ralph Eure of Witton Castle (d. 1461),
> and had
> G3) Sir William Eure of Witton (1440-1484) m. Margaret Constable, and
> had
> G4) Sir Ralph Eure of Witton (d. 1540) m. 2)1516 Agnes Constable, and
> had
> G5) Joan Eure (c.1516-15-) m. 1)1530 Henry Pudsey of Barforth
> (1514-1533), and had
> G6) Thomas Pudsey of Barforth (1531-1576) m. c.1555 Elizabeth Scrope
> (see C7 above)
>
> Cheers, ----------Brad
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