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Edmund Grindall, Archbishop of Canterbury
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d***@gmail.com
2018-07-03 19:51:48 UTC
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Edmund's father, William must have been born bef. 1495. He was of St. Bees, co: Cumberland. How could a farmer have so much money that he could have afforded to pay for a collegiate education for his son? Paying for a collegiate education today costs a lot of money! Did William gain access to money during Henry VIII's disolution of a local monastery, did his father secure a loan, was one of William's relatives in a donating mood? Again, I can't imagine how Edmund could have become Archbishop of Canterbury when his father was a farmer?
Duane Jones
Vance Mead
2018-07-04 05:05:30 UTC
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There's a photo of Edmund's birthplace, Cross Hill House, in the Wikipedia article. It looks like a substantial house, such as a reasonably well-off yeoman farmer might live in.

Also, it was not uncommon for a lord to sponsor the education of some of his tenants' sons.
Peter Howarth
2018-07-04 07:27:11 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
Also, it was not uncommon for a lord to sponsor the education of some of his tenants' sons.
In addition, the Church was in a strong position to support anyone it thought worth an education, especially if they were intended for holy orders. For example, Thomas Wolsey (1473-1530), son of an Ipswich butcher, did well enough at school that he was given one of the four scholarships in the gift of the Bishop of Norwich to Magdalen College, Oxford.

Peter Howarth
Matthew Tompkins
2018-07-04 07:43:55 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
Edmund's father, William must have been born bef. 1495. He was of St. Bees, co: Cumberland. How could a farmer have so much money that he could have afforded to pay for a collegiate education for his son? Paying for a collegiate education today costs a lot of money! Did William gain access to money during Henry VIII's disolution of a local monastery, did his father secure a loan, was one of William's relatives in a donating mood? Again, I can't imagine how Edmund could have become Archbishop of Canterbury when his father was a farmer?
Duane Jones
There's a photo of Edmund's birthplace, Cross Hill House, in the Wikipedia article. It looks like a substantial house, such as a reasonably well-off yeoman farmer might live in.
Also, it was not uncommon for a lord to sponsor the education of some of his tenants' sons.
This well-researched webpage by John Todd, presumably containing the same information as his article in CWAAS, uses the local manorial records to show that the Grindals were only small farmers - 'Grindal was not the most substantial tenant in St Bees village. There were at least three larger holdings, ranging in size up to three oxgangs (48 or 63 statute acres), compared with Grindal's one oxgang 6.5 acres'

http://www.stbees.org.uk/history/essays/grindal/grindal3.html

I think it most likely that the future archbishop's education was funded, as was so often the case for bright young village lads of obvious potential, by some wealthy local sponsor, perhaps a landowner or some ecclesiastical dignitary or institution. In his case I think his father's landlord, the priory of St Bees, must be a likely candidate.

Matt Tompkins
d***@gmail.com
2018-07-04 15:53:45 UTC
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I take this opportunity to Thank All for your interest in my question. I had never heard of Cross Hill, or the research of John and Mary Todd. I noticed in their article (thanks for the link) that Edmund was on familiar terms with the Sandys family of Rottington, and Anne (I think she was Edmund's niece) married into the Dacre family and then into the Wybergh family. Interesting how a farmer had those Gentry connections! It seems as if the Grindals of St. Bees had the same surname as the William Grindal who was tutor to the future Queen Elizabeth I before Roger Ascham. I don't know how this tutor fits (if at all) into the Grindals of St. Bees. There is also mention of money being sent to Edmund Grindal so he could attend Cambridge and abroad. Am I to conclude that William Grindal, tutor to the future Queen Elizabeth I, gave money to Edmund so he could go to college?
Duane Jones
Matthew Tompkins
2018-07-05 08:09:33 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
I take this opportunity to Thank All for your interest in my question. I had never heard of Cross Hill, or the research of John and Mary Todd. I noticed in their article (thanks for the link) that Edmund was on familiar terms with the Sandys family of Rottington, and Anne (I think she was Edmund's niece) married into the Dacre family and then into the Wybergh family. Interesting how a farmer had those Gentry connections! It seems as if the Grindals of St. Bees had the same surname as the William Grindal who was tutor to the future Queen Elizabeth I before Roger Ascham. I don't know how this tutor fits (if at all) into the Grindals of St. Bees. There is also mention of money being sent to Edmund Grindal so he could attend Cambridge and abroad. Am I to conclude that William Grindal, tutor to the future Queen Elizabeth I, gave money to Edmund so he could go to college?
Duane Jones
William could not have funded Edmund's university education - they were of much the same age, in fact William was probably younger than Edmund. He took his BA in 1542 (at Cambridge), three years after Edmund took his own degree (in 1538, at Oxford).

Matt Tompkins
c***@dickinson.uk.net
2018-07-05 10:24:22 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
Edmund's father, William must have been born bef. 1495. He was of St. Bees, co: Cumberland. How could a farmer have so much money that he could have afforded to pay for a collegiate education for his son? Paying for a collegiate education today costs a lot of money! Did William gain access to money during Henry VIII's disolution of a local monastery, did his father secure a loan, was one of William's relatives in a donating mood? Again, I can't imagine how Edmund could have become Archbishop of Canterbury when his father was a farmer?
Duane Jones
John and Evelyn Reedy, a retired American couple, spent many years researching this, and in 2005, self-published a book: 'Reformation Legacy - a Memorial to Archbishop Edmund Grindal of St. Bees and the Family Histories of his Nephew and Nieces in England plus the Related Grindal Lines in Western Cumbria'.

They were kind enough to send me a copy (currently in storage) and also, I believe, deposited one at Whitehaven RO. I imagine that they will also had deposited copies in US libraries. Although the book has a number of inaccuracies and, in my opiinion, makes the wrong interpretation of Woodhall ancestry, I think that you should try to get access to it:

https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/archives/archivecentres/whalsc.asp

I have touched on this on my site:

http://rumbutter.info/gen-cumb-cd-fam-woodall-of-ullock/woodhall-woodall

So far as the house is concerned, I haven't researched this; but I would point out that Cumberland was a long way behind the south in house-building. The upper yeomanry, as a whole, in West Cumberland didn't rebuild until the second half of the seventeenth century. This, I think, is because of coal exploitation.

That William Grindal was able to build such a substantial house, with such a small property, would suggest to me that the property (or some other property that he owned) contained a coal mine; or, if not that, he had some other major source of income other than farming.

"At first the coal was worked from the outcrops where the seam was exposed. One of the earliest records of coal mining in West Cumberland dates to 1560 when Sir Thomas Chaloner, lord of the manor of St Bees,in granting certain leases within the manor, reserved for himself the right to dig for coals while at the same time granting his lessees liberty to take coals from his pits for their own use, on the condition that they paid and laboured from time to time therein, according to the custom of the manor."

http://www.cumbria-industries.org.uk/a-z-of-industries/coal/

The very odd thing about Edmund Grindal is that he didn't go to Queen's College, Oxford, which was devoted to the education of Cumbrians; but to Cambridge. This might suggest, if he had a sponsor, that the sponsor has a Cambridge background; but, perhaps more likely, may merely be that Oxford still had the Lollard cloud hanging over it - not a good thing for an ambitious churchman.

Finally, in reply to your remark: "I can't imagine how Edmund could have become Archbishop of Canterbury when his father was a farmer". Edmund's sister married John Woodhall, a member of a 'minor gentry family' a long time before Edmund's church career escalated. I think that John was a clerk in the King's service with the escheator. When Edmund became Archbishop, the Woodhalls sold up all their freeholds and hot-footed it down to Essex, and got lucrative church appointments. Perhaps Edmund owed them a favour or two?
Vance Mead
2018-07-05 11:25:47 UTC
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Possibly his early poverty was exaggerated in order to make his life story fit into a rags-to-riches narrative?

Like Dick Whittington, whose only possession was his cat, except that Whittington came from a gentry family.
c***@dickinson.uk.net
2018-07-05 12:34:47 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
Possibly his early poverty was exaggerated in order to make his life story fit into a rags-to-riches narrative?
Like Dick Whittington, whose only possession was his cat, except that Whittington came from a gentry family.
Indeed. Though Cumbria would have looked poor to southerners anyway.

Chris
CE Wood
2018-07-08 01:40:14 UTC
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For much more information, please see _Genealaogical Gleanings in England: Abstracts of Wills Relating to Early American Families, withe Genealogical Notes and Pedigrees Constructed from the Wills and from Other Records, Vol 1._ at:
https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalglea01wate#page/52/

Pages 50 to 54, contain not only the Woodhall pedigree, but also, the wills Edmund Grindall and of his nephew, William Woodhall (d. 3 Aug 1603).

Also note that this pedigree (Harleian MD., 1541, fol. 55, in the British Museum, states that John Woodhall, the elder was of Ullock (not Ulbeck), Cumberland. He was the father John Woodhall of Walden, Essex, who married Elizabeth Grindall, sister of Edmund Grindal, Archbishop of Canterbury.

John Woodhall and Elizabeth Grindal were parents of Isabel Woodhall who became the wife of Rev. Doctor William Wilson. They in turn were the grandparents of Hon Edward Rawson, 1st Secretary of the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

CE Wood
Post by c***@dickinson.uk.net
Post by d***@gmail.com
Edmund's father, William must have been born bef. 1495. He was of St. Bees, co: Cumberland. How could a farmer have so much money that he could have afforded to pay for a collegiate education for his son? Paying for a collegiate education today costs a lot of money! Did William gain access to money during Henry VIII's disolution of a local monastery, did his father secure a loan, was one of William's relatives in a donating mood? Again, I can't imagine how Edmund could have become Archbishop of Canterbury when his father was a farmer?
Duane Jones
John and Evelyn Reedy, a retired American couple, spent many years researching this, and in 2005, self-published a book: 'Reformation Legacy - a Memorial to Archbishop Edmund Grindal of St. Bees and the Family Histories of his Nephew and Nieces in England plus the Related Grindal Lines in Western Cumbria'.
https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/archives/archivecentres/whalsc.asp
http://rumbutter.info/gen-cumb-cd-fam-woodall-of-ullock/woodhall-woodall
So far as the house is concerned, I haven't researched this; but I would point out that Cumberland was a long way behind the south in house-building. The upper yeomanry, as a whole, in West Cumberland didn't rebuild until the second half of the seventeenth century. This, I think, is because of coal exploitation.
That William Grindal was able to build such a substantial house, with such a small property, would suggest to me that the property (or some other property that he owned) contained a coal mine; or, if not that, he had some other major source of income other than farming.
"At first the coal was worked from the outcrops where the seam was exposed. One of the earliest records of coal mining in West Cumberland dates to 1560 when Sir Thomas Chaloner, lord of the manor of St Bees,in granting certain leases within the manor, reserved for himself the right to dig for coals while at the same time granting his lessees liberty to take coals from his pits for their own use, on the condition that they paid and laboured from time to time therein, according to the custom of the manor."
http://www.cumbria-industries.org.uk/a-z-of-industries/coal/
The very odd thing about Edmund Grindal is that he didn't go to Queen's College, Oxford, which was devoted to the education of Cumbrians; but to Cambridge. This might suggest, if he had a sponsor, that the sponsor has a Cambridge background; but, perhaps more likely, may merely be that Oxford still had the Lollard cloud hanging over it - not a good thing for an ambitious churchman.
Finally, in reply to your remark: "I can't imagine how Edmund could have become Archbishop of Canterbury when his father was a farmer". Edmund's sister married John Woodhall, a member of a 'minor gentry family' a long time before Edmund's church career escalated. I think that John was a clerk in the King's service with the escheator. When Edmund became Archbishop, the Woodhalls sold up all their freeholds and hot-footed it down to Essex, and got lucrative church appointments. Perhaps Edmund owed them a favour or two?
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
2018-07-08 14:10:00 UTC
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Post by CE Wood
For much more information, please see _Genealaogical Gleanings in
England: Abstracts of Wills Relating to Early American Families, withe
Genealogical Notes and Pedigrees Constructed from the Wills and from
Other Records, Vol 1._
at:https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalglea01wate#page/52/
Pages 50 to 54, contain not only the Woodhall pedigree, but also, the
wills Edmund Grindall and of his nephew, William Woodhall (d. 3 Aug
1603).
Also note that this pedigree (Harleian MD., 1541, fol. 55, in the
British Museum, states that John Woodhall, the elder was of Ullock (not
Ulbeck), Cumberland. He was the father John Woodhall of Walden, Essex,
who married Elizabeth Grindall, sister of Edmund Grindal, Archbishop of
Canterbury.
Actually, the pedigree you link to says that John Woodhall of Ullock
was the grandfather of the John Woodhall who married Elizabeth Grindall.
Post by CE Wood
John Woodhall and Elizabeth Grindal were parents of Isabel Woodhall who
became the wife of Rev. Doctor William Wilson. They in turn were the
grandparents of Hon Edward Rawson, 1st Secretary of the Massachusetts
Bay Colony.
Through their daughter Mary, Isabel Woodhall and William Wilson were
also grandparents of Dorothy Sheafe, wife of the Rev. Henry Whitfield
(d. 1657 or 1658), whose house is said to be the oldest in Connecticut.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
http://nielsenhayden.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/
d***@gmail.com
2018-07-08 17:45:26 UTC
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I want to take time to Thank everyone for documentary evidences and comments about Edmund Grindall. I don't know how all of you know so much abt. where to find resources. I became interested in the question of where his father, William got the money to send Edmund to college, even though his father only farmed a few acres, after I visited recently a timber claim. In 1860 my gg uncle and aunt, Samuel and Elizabeth (Jones) Barr paid a few dollars for nine acres called a timber claim located abt. two miles west of Americus (founded in 1857 in what was then Breckinridge County, Kansas. By Jan. 1861 Kansas came into the union as a free state; and, since Breckinridge was a Confederate, the people in the county changed the name to Lyon Co.) along the Neosho River. There could not have been even two acres of timber, though. The other seven acres could have been farmed. I think Samuel and Elizabeth were as poor as snakes and relied heavily on some kind of barter/work system instead of paying money for all supplies/food. They lived probably in a hovel with a dirt floor and cane roof. In 1863, what is known today as Emporia State University was established. Samuel and Elizabeth could not have afforded a collegiate education for even one of their children based upon farming seven acres. Maybe William Grindall bartered with the college for his child's education. I have never read of any college in England accepting a student whose tuition was paid by giving a cow as payment. I know many pioneer school teachers were not paid with money. They were paid by parents with what their farm produced, like I mention earlier, food was an acceptable form of payment; and, parents even provided teachers with a room in the farmhouse. Maybe someone knows if a farm kid could get an education through by some other form of payment besides cash. Anyway, Samuel and Elizabeth were Quakers. Their immediate family members stayed in Indiana until well after the Civil War. There really was no way to send cash from Indiana to Kansas in 1860. Also, the nearest Quaker Church was abt. 10 miles south of Americus. The Cottonwood Friends Meeting House is still in use today. I can't imagine the church would have helped send one of Samuel and Elizabeth's children to college. Also, there was, and is today, no mining anywhere around Americus; so, money from mining is out the window. Actually, I have digressed too much. Again, Thanks for the help. William, Edmund's father was my 14th great grandfather; and, his gg grand daughter was Dorothy Sheafe, wife of Rev. Henry Whitfield.
Duane Jones
Emporia, KS
c***@dickinson.uk.net
2018-07-09 10:35:47 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
I want to take time to Thank everyone for documentary evidences and comments about Edmund Grindall. I don't know how all of you know so much abt. where to find resources. I became interested in the question of where his father, William got the money to send Edmund to college, even though his father only farmed a few acres
<snip>
Again, Thanks for the help. William, Edmund's father was my 14th great grandfather; and, his gg grand daughter was Dorothy Sheafe, wife of Rev. Henry Whitfield.
<snip>
Post by d***@gmail.com
Duane Jones
Emporia, KS
Hi Duane

I don't think that you should be leaving this thread with the impression that William was just a farmer. It's very clear that he wasn't. He built a substantial stone house around 1520

The Todd article makes three relevant points:

1. "In the first twenty years of the sixteenth century, therefore, William Grindal appeared in St Bees, acquired a holding as a tenant of the Priory, and started his house "well-builded" there."

2. "Either tenant farmers were not so badly housed as has been supposed, or William and Robert Grindal had some additional source of wealth. "

3."It is to be hoped that the research of Mr John Reedy, of Brandon, Florida, will shortly show the early history of the Grindal family"

The Reedy book has since been published (and I have read it and forgotten what it said about William Grindal). Todd seems to be implying that Grindal was a newcomer to the area - if so, why did he buy in and what were his motives and existing finances? Perhaps he was being paid by the Abbey as as an outside expert on saltpanning and coalmining?

http://www.cumbria-industries.org.uk/salt/

The other huge boost to income, and prestige, would have come from government employ. A government salary, with profits, was worht quite a number of yeoman farmer's incomes.

Chris
Vance Mead
2018-07-09 11:48:26 UTC
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A question:

Is the word farmer being used in today's sense of agricola or husbandman, or in the late medieval sense of firmarius as the tenant of a manor?

Vance
c***@dickinson.uk.net
2018-07-09 12:09:43 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
Is the word farmer being used in today's sense of agricola or husbandman, or in the late medieval sense of firmarius as the tenant of a manor?
Vance
Fair enough question.

Farmer isn't a term that I would normally use. I suspect that Douane is using it in the sense of 'agricola', though I am using it in the sense of 'firmarius' or 'yeoman'. William Grindal held his land directly from the Abbey, so wasn't a husbandman.

Chris

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