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Yet another Agatha hypothesis
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Peter Stewart
2017-06-17 04:54:08 UTC
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In a 2016 article available here:

http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe?I21DBN=LINK&P21DBN=UJRN&Z21ID=&S21REF=10&S21CNR=20&S21STN=1&S21FMT=ASP_meta&C21COM=S&2_S21P03=FILA=&2_S21STR=kraeznavstvo_2016_1-2_18

Elena Yasynetska proposed that Maria-Dobronega, the wife of Kasimir I
the Restorer, duke of Poland, was a daughter of St Boris (a son of St
Vladimir the Great, prince of Kiev). Incidentally it was suggested that
Agatha may have been a sister of Maria-Dobronega.

The name Agatha is traced back to the family of the Byzantine emperor
Romanos Lekapenos, along with St Boris' baptismal name Roman, through
the latter's mother who is identified as a daughter of Boris II of
Bulgaria (a great-grandson of Romanos).

The wife of St Boris, the putative mother of Agatha and Maria-Dobronega,
is supposed to have been descended from emperor Otto I and his English
wife Eadgyth, through their son Liudolf and his conjectured daughter
Richlind, duchess of Swabia.

I think this is far-fetched, but then there is probably nowhere left
except far to fetch another Agatha hypothesis from.

St Boris is known to have married at a young age, not long before he and
his brother St Gleb were killed, usually placed in 1015 (but possibly in
1017 according to Yasynetska).

The hypothesis relies heavily on onomastics and also on a rather forced
interpretation of a passage in a 13th-century Polish chronicle, stating
that Maria-Dobronega was daughter of the Russian prince Roman son of
Odo/Otto ("Kazimirus ... duxit uxorem, filiam Romani principis Russiae
filii Odonis nomine Dobronegam, alias dictam Maria"). Yasynetska thinks
that Boris-Roman was described as "son of Odo/Otto" as the husband of a
descendant of the emperor. She suggests that the connection to St Boris
was "carefully hushed up" due to embarrassment by Roman Catholics about
descent from an Eastern Orthodox saint. However, in my view this is
highly unlikely as the official line was that saints from before the
Great Schism (and indeed Russian saints from afterwards) were acceptable
in the West.

Peter Stewart
taf
2017-06-17 06:55:22 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe?I21DBN=LINK&P21DBN=UJRN&Z21ID=&S21REF=10&S21CNR=20&S21STN=1&S21FMT=ASP_meta&C21COM=S&2_S21P03=FILA=&2_S21STR=kraeznavstvo_2016_1-2_18
Elena Yasynetska proposed that Maria-Dobronega, the wife of Kasimir I
the Restorer, duke of Poland, was a daughter of St Boris (a son of St
Vladimir the Great, prince of Kiev). Incidentally it was suggested that
Agatha may have been a sister of Maria-Dobronega.
The name Agatha is traced back to the family of the Byzantine emperor
Romanos Lekapenos, along with St Boris' baptismal name Roman, through
the latter's mother who is identified as a daughter of Boris II of
Bulgaria (a great-grandson of Romanos).
The wife of St Boris, the putative mother of Agatha and Maria-Dobronega,
is supposed to have been descended from emperor Otto I and his English
wife Eadgyth, through their son Liudolf and his conjectured daughter
Richlind, duchess of Swabia.
Unfortunate error in the last table. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at, with Christopher Lekapenos having a brother Christopher Lekapenos, who married Christopher Lekapenos. (The latter couple, of course, are Helena Lekapene and Constantine VII.) It caps the repetition by mistakenly giving the triplicate Christopher the death date of his father (all three times). She does the same thing with Richlind in that last table, repeating her name four times, in a line that is supposed to consist of Otto I, Liudolf, Richlind and (? Adela). It looks like she copied the cells in the table intending to substitute in the other names, then never got around to making the swap (and it doesn't speak well for the editor that something this obvious would not be detected, assuming the PDF represents the final published form).

I note she also shows Empress Theophanu, wife of Otto II, as daughter of Romanos II, a placement that is very much out of favor.

For those keeping score, this solution would make Agatha the 'daughter of a Russian prince' and 'niece' (younger kinswoman) of both Emperors Henry (II & III), but would not match the sources making her close kinswoman (daughter or sister-in-law) of the Hungarian rulers. Curiously, it would make Agatha grandniece of Mathilda, Abbess of Essen, to whom Æthelweard the Historian addressed his chronicle.

taf
Peter Stewart
2017-06-17 07:31:24 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by Peter Stewart
http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe?I21DBN=LINK&P21DBN=UJRN&Z21ID=&S21REF=10&S21CNR=20&S21STN=1&S21FMT=ASP_meta&C21COM=S&2_S21P03=FILA=&2_S21STR=kraeznavstvo_2016_1-2_18
Elena Yasynetska proposed that Maria-Dobronega, the wife of Kasimir I
the Restorer, duke of Poland, was a daughter of St Boris (a son of St
Vladimir the Great, prince of Kiev). Incidentally it was suggested that
Agatha may have been a sister of Maria-Dobronega.
The name Agatha is traced back to the family of the Byzantine emperor
Romanos Lekapenos, along with St Boris' baptismal name Roman, through
the latter's mother who is identified as a daughter of Boris II of
Bulgaria (a great-grandson of Romanos).
The wife of St Boris, the putative mother of Agatha and Maria-Dobronega,
is supposed to have been descended from emperor Otto I and his English
wife Eadgyth, through their son Liudolf and his conjectured daughter
Richlind, duchess of Swabia.
Unfortunate error in the last table. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at, with Christopher Lekapenos having a brother Christopher Lekapenos, who married Christopher Lekapenos. (The latter couple, of course, are Helena Lekapene and Constantine VII.) It caps the repetition by mistakenly giving the triplicate Christopher the death date of his father (all three times). She does the same thing with Richlind in that last table, repeating her name four times, in a line that is supposed to consist of Otto I, Liudolf, Richlind and (? Adela). It looks like she copied the cells in the table intending to substitute in the other names, then never got around to making the swap (and it doesn't speak well for the editor that something this obvious would not be detected, assuming the PDF represents the final published form).
I note she also shows Empress Theophanu, wife of Otto II, as daughter of Romanos II, a placement that is very much out of favor.
Thanks for explaining, I didn't take further notice of the tables after
seeing the generations were weirdly skew-whiff with Richlind as her own
daughter, granddaughter, etc - unfortunately this kind of carelessness
is not too unusual in Ukrainian publications.

It's interesting that some historians are prepared to base theories on
the names given for princes of Rus' when these are so often inaccurate,
in this case relying on "Odo" being correct but his stated relationship
to Roman literally not. I have some shares in the Brooklyn bridge
available for anyone who would buy into either side of that.

Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
2017-06-19 00:28:51 UTC
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As more and more theories of Agatha's origin appear, actual evidence
seems to become less of a requirement. In that spirit, I offer a few
additional theories of my own, which I think are just as interesting
(and perhaps even just as true) as some recent offerings. (I have no
idea how many theories have been proposed, and the numbers are pure
conjecture.)

Agatha Theory #85: Agatha was a daughter of an Armenian Bagratid, which,
after accepting a dozen or two "dotted line" conjectural relationships,
gives you a DFA.

Agatha Theory #86: Agatha was a daughter of the Emperor of Japan,
thereby forming an important "gateway" to Japanese royalty.

Agatha Theory #88: Agatha was a descendant of Mayan kings who was
brought to Europe as a baby on one of Leif Eriksson's return voyages.
(After all, the collapsing Mayan cities were only a few thousand miles
from where the Vikings landed in America, and why let a few thousand
miles get in the way of genealogical guesswork?)

Agatha Theory #89: Agatha was a daughter of Godric Gryffindor. (Hogwarts
is in Scotland, and Agatha's daughter was Queen of Scotland. Q.E.D.)

(The missing number is due to the likelihood that someone else published
yet another theory during the time that it took me to type this.)

Stewart Baldwin
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
2017-06-19 17:35:48 UTC
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Post by Stewart Baldwin
As more and more theories of Agatha's origin appear, actual evidence
seems to become less of a requirement. In that spirit, I offer a few
additional theories of my own, which I think are just as interesting
(and perhaps even just as true) as some recent offerings. (I have no
idea how many theories have been proposed, and the numbers are pure
conjecture.)
Agatha Theory #85: Agatha was a daughter of an Armenian Bagratid, which,
after accepting a dozen or two "dotted line" conjectural relationships,
gives you a DFA.
Agatha Theory #86: Agatha was a daughter of the Emperor of Japan,
thereby forming an important "gateway" to Japanese royalty.
Agatha Theory #88: Agatha was a descendant of Mayan kings who was
brought to Europe as a baby on one of Leif Eriksson's return voyages.
(After all, the collapsing Mayan cities were only a few thousand miles
from where the Vikings landed in America, and why let a few thousand
miles get in the way of genealogical guesswork?)
Agatha Theory #89: Agatha was a daughter of Godric Gryffindor. (Hogwarts
is in Scotland, and Agatha's daughter was Queen of Scotland. Q.E.D.)
(The missing number is due to the likelihood that someone else published
yet another theory during the time that it took me to type this.)
Stewart Baldwin
Can't stop laughing! Those are good theories, neither better nor worse than the others!
Paulo Canedo
2017-06-19 19:36:36 UTC
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Post by Stewart Baldwin
As more and more theories of Agatha's origin appear, actual evidence
seems to become less of a requirement. In that spirit, I offer a few
additional theories of my own, which I think are just as interesting
(and perhaps even just as true) as some recent offerings. (I have no
idea how many theories have been proposed, and the numbers are pure
conjecture.)
Agatha Theory #85: Agatha was a daughter of an Armenian Bagratid, which,
after accepting a dozen or two "dotted line" conjectural relationships,
gives you a DFA.
Agatha Theory #86: Agatha was a daughter of the Emperor of Japan,
thereby forming an important "gateway" to Japanese royalty.
Agatha Theory #88: Agatha was a descendant of Mayan kings who was
brought to Europe as a baby on one of Leif Eriksson's return voyages.
(After all, the collapsing Mayan cities were only a few thousand miles
from where the Vikings landed in America, and why let a few thousand
miles get in the way of genealogical guesswork?)
Agatha Theory #89: Agatha was a daughter of Godric Gryffindor. (Hogwarts
is in Scotland, and Agatha's daughter was Queen of Scotland. Q.E.D.)
(The missing number is due to the likelihood that someone else published
yet another theory during the time that it took me to type this.)
Stewart Baldwin
Couldn't you wait until 1th April to write that. But more seriously the Bagratid genealogies are conjectural because neither the Armenian sources neither the Byzantine sources give us a complete genealogy of them.
Peter Stewart
2017-06-19 22:10:22 UTC
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Post by Stewart Baldwin
As more and more theories of Agatha's origin appear, actual evidence
seems to become less of a requirement. In that spirit, I offer a few
additional theories of my own, which I think are just as interesting
(and perhaps even just as true) as some recent offerings. (I have no
idea how many theories have been proposed, and the numbers are pure
conjecture.)
Agatha Theory #85: Agatha was a daughter of an Armenian Bagratid,
which, after accepting a dozen or two "dotted line" conjectural
relationships, gives you a DFA.
Agatha Theory #86: Agatha was a daughter of the Emperor of Japan,
thereby forming an important "gateway" to Japanese royalty.
Agatha Theory #88: Agatha was a descendant of Mayan kings who was
brought to Europe as a baby on one of Leif Eriksson's return voyages.
(After all, the collapsing Mayan cities were only a few thousand miles
from where the Vikings landed in America, and why let a few thousand
miles get in the way of genealogical guesswork?)
Agatha Theory #89: Agatha was a daughter of Godric Gryffindor.
(Hogwarts is in Scotland, and Agatha's daughter was Queen of Scotland.
Q.E.D.)
(The missing number is due to the likelihood that someone else
published yet another theory during the time that it took me to type
this.)
All of these theories are based on the assumption that Agatha was an
earthling. What is the evidence for that?

Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
2017-06-20 00:55:59 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
...
Agatha Theory #85: ...
All of these theories are based on the assumption that Agatha was an
earthling. What is the evidence for that?
Another "possibility" has occurred to me: Perhaps Agatha was the result
of an alien gene-splicing experiment which combined DNA segments from
all of her proposed parents, so ALL of the theories that have been
proposed are true.

Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
2017-06-20 01:21:12 UTC
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Post by Stewart Baldwin
Post by Peter Stewart
...
Agatha Theory #85: ...
All of these theories are based on the assumption that Agatha was an
earthling. What is the evidence for that?
Another "possibility" has occurred to me: Perhaps Agatha was the
result of an alien gene-splicing experiment which combined DNA
segments from all of her proposed parents, so ALL of the theories that
have been proposed are true.
Documentation for this may have been on the UFO that crashed at Roswell
- if so the dossier is now probably on the desk in the Oval office, as
it was surely a top priority of the current president. Maybe someone
will ask about it if he ever holds another press conference.

Peter Stewart
P J Evans
2017-06-20 03:17:12 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Stewart Baldwin
Post by Peter Stewart
...
Agatha Theory #85: ...
All of these theories are based on the assumption that Agatha was an
earthling. What is the evidence for that?
Another "possibility" has occurred to me: Perhaps Agatha was the
result of an alien gene-splicing experiment which combined DNA
segments from all of her proposed parents, so ALL of the theories that
have been proposed are true.
Documentation for this may have been on the UFO that crashed at Roswell
- if so the dossier is now probably on the desk in the Oval office, as
it was surely a top priority of the current president. Maybe someone
will ask about it if he ever holds another press conference.
Peter Stewart
ROFLMAO!

(There are non-medieval people on my tree who I've sometimes thought may have arrived via saucer, they are in so few records.)
Peter Stewart
2017-06-20 03:50:14 UTC
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Post by P J Evans
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Stewart Baldwin
Post by Peter Stewart
...
Agatha Theory #85: ...
All of these theories are based on the assumption that Agatha was an
earthling. What is the evidence for that?
Another "possibility" has occurred to me: Perhaps Agatha was the
result of an alien gene-splicing experiment which combined DNA
segments from all of her proposed parents, so ALL of the theories that
have been proposed are true.
Documentation for this may have been on the UFO that crashed at Roswell
- if so the dossier is now probably on the desk in the Oval office, as
it was surely a top priority of the current president. Maybe someone
will ask about it if he ever holds another press conference.
Peter Stewart
ROFLMAO!
(There are non-medieval people on my tree who I've sometimes thought may have arrived via saucer, they are in so few records.)
You're right, this is the Halley's comet effect - every 74 years a new
generation of aliens is delivered to earth as it passes, equipped with
DNA but with no human ancestry, calling themselves by camouflage names
such as "Despencer", "Agatha", etc.

Scientology can perhaps explain it better than genealogy.

Peter Stewart
Matthew Connolly
2017-06-20 19:14:53 UTC
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Now you mention it, the name 'Agatha' is obviously an acronym - Alien Genes Added To Human Ancestry.
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
2017-06-20 22:36:59 UTC
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Post by Matthew Connolly
Now you mention it, the name 'Agatha' is obviously an acronym - Alien Genes Added To Human Ancestry.
You might be onto something here, but before you publish, you should
attempt to identify the specific alien whose genes were used. People are
going to want to have a name to fill in the blank in their database.
Stewart Baldwin
What a blast! I've never had seen this so very much intellectual group having fun! Thanks for lifting up my spirits! I needed that!
David Teague
2017-08-06 20:44:20 UTC
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Or maybe -- just maybe -- Agatha was a podcast person!

Anyone know the Latin for "Klaatu barada nikkto"?

David Teague

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017, J.L. Fernandez Blanco <
Post by Matthew Connolly
Post by Matthew Connolly
Now you mention it, the name 'Agatha' is obviously an acronym - Alien
Genes Added To Human Ancestry.
You might be onto something here, but before you publish, you should
attempt to identify the specific alien whose genes were used. People are
going to want to have a name to fill in the blank in their database.
Stewart Baldwin
What a blast! I've never had seen this so very much intellectual group
having fun! Thanks for lifting up my spirits! I needed that!
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David Teague
2017-08-06 20:46:34 UTC
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That should have read "Agatha was a pod person"!

I hate autocorrect....
Sigh....
Post by David Teague
Or maybe -- just maybe -- Agatha was a podcast person!
Anyone know the Latin for "Klaatu barada nikkto"?
David Teague
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017, J.L. Fernandez Blanco <
Post by Matthew Connolly
Post by Matthew Connolly
Now you mention it, the name 'Agatha' is obviously an acronym - Alien
Genes Added To Human Ancestry.
You might be onto something here, but before you publish, you should
attempt to identify the specific alien whose genes were used. People are
going to want to have a name to fill in the blank in their database.
Stewart Baldwin
What a blast! I've never had seen this so very much intellectual group
having fun! Thanks for lifting up my spirits! I needed that!
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Richard Carruthers
2017-08-06 21:14:44 UTC
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Latin for "Klaatu barada nikkto", you ask? Why "Carthago delenda est",
of course, with "et cum Agatha tua" being understood.;)
Post by David Teague
That should have read "Agatha was a pod person"!
I hate autocorrect....
Sigh....
Post by David Teague
Or maybe -- just maybe -- Agatha was a podcast person!
Anyone know the Latin for "Klaatu barada nikkto"?
David Teague
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017, J.L. Fernandez Blanco <
Post by Matthew Connolly
Post by Matthew Connolly
Now you mention it, the name 'Agatha' is obviously an acronym -
Alien
Genes Added To Human Ancestry.
You might be onto something here, but before you publish, you should
attempt to identify the specific alien whose genes were used. People are
going to want to have a name to fill in the blank in their database.
Stewart Baldwin
What a blast! I've never had seen this so very much intellectual group
having fun! Thanks for lifting up my spirits! I needed that!
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message
David Teague
2017-08-07 00:45:23 UTC
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And here was me thinking that the Latin for "Klaatu barada nikkto" would be
something like "Sic! Non habemus bananas -- non habemus bananas hodie...."
Post by Richard Carruthers
Latin for "Klaatu barada nikkto", you ask? Why "Carthago delenda est",
of course, with "et cum Agatha tua" being understood.;)
Post by David Teague
That should have read "Agatha was a pod person"!
I hate autocorrect....
Sigh....
Post by David Teague
Or maybe -- just maybe -- Agatha was a podcast person!
Anyone know the Latin for "Klaatu barada nikkto"?
David Teague
On Tuesday, June 20, 2017, J.L. Fernandez Blanco <
Post by Matthew Connolly
Post by Matthew Connolly
Now you mention it, the name 'Agatha' is obviously an acronym -
Alien
Genes Added To Human Ancestry.
You might be onto something here, but before you publish, you should
attempt to identify the specific alien whose genes were used. People are
going to want to have a name to fill in the blank in their database.
Stewart Baldwin
What a blast! I've never had seen this so very much intellectual group
having fun! Thanks for lifting up my spirits! I needed that!
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
'unsubscribe' without
Post by David Teague
Post by David Teague
Post by Matthew Connolly
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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Post by David Teague
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n***@san.rr.com
2017-06-20 02:27:56 UTC
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Post by Stewart Baldwin
Post by Peter Stewart
...
Agatha Theory #85: ...
All of these theories are based on the assumption that Agatha was an
earthling. What is the evidence for that?
Another "possibility" has occurred to me: Perhaps Agatha was the result
of an alien gene-splicing experiment which combined DNA segments from
all of her proposed parents, so ALL of the theories that have been
proposed are true.
Stewart Baldwin
there are enough ufo conspiracists around that might actually believe these...
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