Discussion:
Ada of Huntingdon (died c.1242), wife of Henry de Hastings, Knt.
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Douglas Richardson
2008-12-03 15:58:20 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Sir Henry de Hastings, Knt. (born c.1205, died 1250), King's
Dispenser, 1226/8, 1236, hereditary Steward of the Abbey of Bury St.
Edmunds, is known to have married Ada of Huntingdon, 4th daughter of
David, Earl of Huntingdon, by Maud, daughter of Hugh, Earl of
Chester. Most sources don't provide the date of this marriage, but it
evidently occurred in or after 1224, when Henry's marriage was granted
by the king to Osbert Giffard. Ada of Huntingdon certainly has
illustrious ancestry, as her father was a younger brother of William
the Lion, King of Scotland; also Ada's mother, Maud of Chester, was a
lineal descendant of King Henry I of England. Sir Henry and Ada de
Hastings had four known children, namely one son, Henry, Knt., and
three daughters, Ada (wife of Hubert Hovel, Knt.), Margery, and
Hillary (wife of William de Harcourt, Knt.).

As for Ada of Huntingdon herself, all the sources I've consulted so
far seem to be rather vague as to the date of her death. As such,
I've had to do original research to determine exactly when she died.
Ada was certainly living in 1237, when she was co-heiress to her
brother, John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon. She was
likewise living in June 1241, when Stephen de Meverel sued William de
Ferrers, Earl of Derby, and Agnes his wife regarding the advowson of
Gatton, Staffordshire; William and Agnes appeared by attorney, and
stated that the advowson formed part of the inheritance of Agnes,
which fell to her by the death of Ranulph, Earl of Chester, and that
they could not answer without their co-parceners, , viz., Hugh de
Aubeney, Earl of Arundel, Hawise de Quincy, Countess of Lincoln, Henry
de Hastings and Ada his wife, Isabel de Brus, John de Balliol and
Dervorgoil his wife, and William de Forz, and Christian his wife [see
Colls. Hist. Staffs. 4 (1883): 90-102]. Ada was last known to be
living 4 August 1241, but died before Trinity term 1242 (date of
lawsuit) [see Curia Regis Rolls, 18 (1999): 21, 104–105, 193–194, 314,
335, 339; 19 (2002): 26, 48, 416].

That Ada predeceased her husband, Sir Henry de Hastings, is further
proven by the Pipe Rolls of 1247, which record that Henry de Hastings
was then holding the manors of Condover and Worfield, Shropshire, “by
reason of the heirs of Ada his wife whom he has by the said Ada” (that
is, he was holding Ada's lands by courtesy of England) [see Eyton,
Antiqs. of Shropshire 3 (1856): 108]. Sir Henry de Hastings died
shortly before 9 August 1250. On 8 Jan. 1251, the king granted the
manor of Yardley Hastings, Northamptonshire, which was part of his
wife, Ada’s inheritance, together with other four Hastings family
manors to his half-brother, Guy de Lusignan, to hold during the
minority of the heir. The king likewise granted other parts of Ada’s
inheritance, namely, the manors of Brampton, Huntingdonshire and
Worfield, Shropshire, to another of his half-brothers, Geoffrey de
Lusignan, on 25 Jan. 1251 and 28 July 1251 respectively, to hold
during the minority of the heir. The granting of Ada's inheritance by
the king proves conclusively that Ada was then deceased, otherwise
following her husband's death, she would have held her lands in her
own right, together with any future husband, if she had remarried.

Curiously, in a modern pedigree of the Brereton family of Cheshire
found in Ormerod, Hist. of Chester, 3 (1819): 51, the author states
that Sir Ralph Brereton, of Brereton, Knt. is “said in some pedigrees
to marry Ada, daughter of David earl of Huntingdon, relict of Henry
Hastings.” On page 19 of the same volume, the author quotes a
seemingly authentic inscription cut in capitals within an arch over an
ancient tomb in the parish church of Astbury, Cheshire, which reads as
follows: “Hic jacent Radulphus Brereton miles et domina Ada uxor sua,
una filiarum Davidis comitis Huntingdonis.” [Here lies Ralph Brereton
Knt. and lady Ada his wife, daughter of David, Earl of Huntingdon].
This same inscription and/or alleged marriage are elsewhere mentioned
in numerous secondary sources such as Gentleman's Magazine.n.s. 9
(1816): 577; Hanshall, Hist. of the County Palatine of Chester (1817):
579; Yates, History of the Ancient Town and Borough of Congleton
(1820): 141; Archaeologia 33 (1849): 59–60; Hamer & Lloyd, Hist. of
the Par. of Llangurig (1875): 74; Arch. Cambrensis 4th ser. 11 (1880):
176; Colls. His. & Arch. Rel. to Montgomeryshire 14 (1881): 61–63;
Advertiser Notes & Queries (1882): 23; Lloyd, Hist. of the Princes,
the Lords Marcher, & the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog 3 (1882): 92
(Brereton pedigree); Trans. of the Lancashire & Cheshire Antiq. Soc. 7
(1889): 286–287; Trans. of the Hist. Soc. of Lancashire & Cheshire 76
(1924): 43; Notes & Queries, 172 (1937): 298, 337, 393, 447; Dalton,
MSS of St. George’s Chapel (1957): 409; Brereton, Letter Books of Sir
William Brereton 2 (Rec. Soc. of Lancashire & Cheshire 128) (1990):
62.

Erdeswicke, Survey of Staffordshire (1820): 172 further alleges that
Ada, widow of Henry de Hastings, married William Hansacre [Handsacre],
of Staffordshire. Still yet, a modern pedigree of the family of Earls
of Chester found in Banks, Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 1
(1807): 210 states that “An old MS. Visitation Book of Cheshire says,
she [Ada] married, second, William Handsacre, and, third, Sir Ralph
Brereton, of Brereton, knight.” Contemporary records, however, do not
support either of these “extra” marriages for Ada de Huntingdon.

We've already seen that Ada of Huntingdon, wife of Sir Henry de
Hastings, predeceased her husband shortly before Trinity term 1242
(date of lawsuit). Thus, Ada of Huntingdon can not possibly have
married (2nd) either Sir Ralph de Brereton or William Handsacre. To
date, I've found very little information regarding Sir Ralph de
Brereton, although it seems likely an individual of this name existed
in this time period. If his wife was named Ada, however, the
possibility exists that he was married to the younger Ada de Hastings,
one of the daughters of Ada of Huntingdon. My research shows that in
1252 the younger Ada de Hastings, being then a ward of the king, she
was abducted by Hubert Hovel, Knt., and married to him without the
king’s license. In Feb. 1252 the king ordered Hubert’s arrest for
having “committed many trespasses in the realm against the king’s
crown and peace.” He was subsequently arrested by the Sheriff of
Bedfordshire. The following year, 1253, the king pardoned Hubert
Hovel, and commanded the Sheriff of Bedfordshire to permit him to go
free. Sir Hubert Hovel died before Hilary term 1258, when his widow,
Ada, claimed dower in the third part of the manor of Harpol, Suffolk.
She released her claim to brother-in-law, Robert Hovel, senior, in
return for an annuity of two marks of silver, plus a one-time payment
of ten marls of silver. Ada was living in 1260–1261, put she put in
her claim to property in Wickham, Suffolk in a fine recorded that
year. She is possibly the Ada Hovel who occurs on the 1301 lay
subsidy at Cundale, Yorkshire [References: Arch. Journal, 26 (1869):
236–256; Brown, Yorkshire Lay Subsidy (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser.
21) (1898): 1–8; Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 61,
63; Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 1 (1905): 397–399; Cal. Patent Rolls,
1247–1258 (1908): 130, 191; Muskett, Suffolk Manorial Fams. 2 (1908):
59–60, 74 (Hovel pedigree); Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 336, footnote
a (sub Pecche)]. Thus, Ada de Hastings was a young widow in 1258, and
can easily have remarried. Unfortunately, the subsequent history of
Ada de Hastings is unknown. She may possibly have died without
remarrying, or she may have married Sir Ralph de Brereton, Knt., of
Brereton, Cheshire.

As for William de Handsacre, a bit more is known of him. His wife was
not named Ada at all, rather her name was Ala or Alice. My research
indicates that in Hilary term 1279 Alice widow of William son of
Geoffrey Fitz Warine stated she previously brought a writ of dower
against William de Handesacre and Alice his wife regarding tenements
in Tipton, Staffordshire. In Michaelmas 1282 Ala, widow of William de
Handsacre, sued Thomas le Harpur and Richard le Carpenter, both of
Handsacre, Staffordshire, for the third part of two messuages and
various lands in the vill of Handsacre, Staffordshire as her dower.
In Michaelmas 1287 the Sheriff was ordered to raise 13 marks from the
lands and chattels of Ala, widow of William de Handesacre, and two
others, executors of the will of William de Handesacre, and bring them
into court to pay them to Roger le Escot, of Nottingham, for a debt.
In 1293 Ala widow of William de Handesacre and Thomas le Harpur were
attached to answer the plea of William de Waleton and Alice his wife
[References: Colls. Hist. Staffs. 6(1) (1885): 99, 125, 127, 135, 172,
231, 252]. The possibility exists that William de Handsacre's wife,
Alice or Ala, was formerly married to Sir Ralph de Brereton, of
Brereton, Cheshire. But, if so, Sir Ralph de Brereton can not have
married Ada de Hastings, the daughter of Ada of Huntingdon, as William
de Handsacre's wife was named Alice or Ala.

In conclusion, it is clear that Ada of Huntingdon had but one husband,
Sir Henry de Hastings. She did not marry (2nd) Sir Ralph de Brereton
or William de Handsacre. The possibility exists that Sir Ralph de
Brereton may have been married to her daughter, Ada de Hastings, widow
of Sir Hubert Hovel. It is also possible that Sir Ralph de Brereton's
widow married William de Handsacre. However, if so, Sir Ralph de
Brereton can not have been married to Ada de Hastings, as William de
Handsacre's wife was named Alice or Ala. Further study is needed to
resolve this points.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the names of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Henry de Hastings
(died 1250), and his wife, Ada of Huntingdon (died c.1242):

Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Christopher Batt,
Anne Baynton, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah
Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent,
Thomas Bressey, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Jeremy Clarke,
Matthew Clarkson, James & Norton Claypoole, St. Leger Codd, Francis
Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer,
Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Nathaniel Littleton, Simon
Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne
Mauleverer, Richard More, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John
Oxenbridge, Richard Palgrave, Richard Parker, Herbert Pelham, Robert
Peyton, George Reade, William Rodney, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard
Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna
Somerset, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Olive Welby, John
West, Thomas Wingfield.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Tony Ingham
2008-12-03 23:49:27 UTC
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Richardson's rather long-winded post did at least enable me to elicit
one gem.
Post by Douglas Richardson
I've had to do original research
This, indeed, is a first for Douglas.
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Sir Henry de Hastings, Knt. (born c.1205, died 1250), King's
Dispenser, 1226/8, 1236, hereditary Steward of the Abbey of Bury St.
Edmunds, is known to have married Ada of Huntingdon, 4th daughter of
David, Earl of Huntingdon, by Maud, daughter of Hugh, Earl of
Chester. Most sources don't provide the date of this marriage, but it
evidently occurred in or after 1224, when Henry's marriage was granted
by the king to Osbert Giffard. Ada of Huntingdon certainly has
illustrious ancestry, as her father was a younger brother of William
the Lion, King of Scotland; also Ada's mother, Maud of Chester, was a
lineal descendant of King Henry I of England. Sir Henry and Ada de
Hastings had four known children, namely one son, Henry, Knt., and
three daughters, Ada (wife of Hubert Hovel, Knt.), Margery, and
Hillary (wife of William de Harcourt, Knt.).
As for Ada of Huntingdon herself, all the sources I've consulted so
far seem to be rather vague as to the date of her death. As such,
I've had to do original research to determine exactly when she died.
Ada was certainly living in 1237, when she was co-heiress to her
brother, John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon. She was
likewise living in June 1241, when Stephen de Meverel sued William de
Ferrers, Earl of Derby, and Agnes his wife regarding the advowson of
Gatton, Staffordshire; William and Agnes appeared by attorney, and
stated that the advowson formed part of the inheritance of Agnes,
which fell to her by the death of Ranulph, Earl of Chester, and that
they could not answer without their co-parceners, , viz., Hugh de
Aubeney, Earl of Arundel, Hawise de Quincy, Countess of Lincoln, Henry
de Hastings and Ada his wife, Isabel de Brus, John de Balliol and
Dervorgoil his wife, and William de Forz, and Christian his wife [see
Colls. Hist. Staffs. 4 (1883): 90-102]. Ada was last known to be
living 4 August 1241, but died before Trinity term 1242 (date of
lawsuit) [see Curia Regis Rolls, 18 (1999): 21, 104–105, 193–194, 314,
335, 339; 19 (2002): 26, 48, 416].
That Ada predeceased her husband, Sir Henry de Hastings, is further
proven by the Pipe Rolls of 1247, which record that Henry de Hastings
was then holding the manors of Condover and Worfield, Shropshire, “by
reason of the heirs of Ada his wife whom he has by the said Ada” (that
is, he was holding Ada's lands by courtesy of England) [see Eyton,
Antiqs. of Shropshire 3 (1856): 108]. Sir Henry de Hastings died
shortly before 9 August 1250. On 8 Jan. 1251, the king granted the
manor of Yardley Hastings, Northamptonshire, which was part of his
wife, Ada’s inheritance, together with other four Hastings family
manors to his half-brother, Guy de Lusignan, to hold during the
minority of the heir. The king likewise granted other parts of Ada’s
inheritance, namely, the manors of Brampton, Huntingdonshire and
Worfield, Shropshire, to another of his half-brothers, Geoffrey de
Lusignan, on 25 Jan. 1251 and 28 July 1251 respectively, to hold
during the minority of the heir. The granting of Ada's inheritance by
the king proves conclusively that Ada was then deceased, otherwise
following her husband's death, she would have held her lands in her
own right, together with any future husband, if she had remarried.
Curiously, in a modern pedigree of the Brereton family of Cheshire
found in Ormerod, Hist. of Chester, 3 (1819): 51, the author states
that Sir Ralph Brereton, of Brereton, Knt. is “said in some pedigrees
to marry Ada, daughter of David earl of Huntingdon, relict of Henry
Hastings.” On page 19 of the same volume, the author quotes a
seemingly authentic inscription cut in capitals within an arch over an
ancient tomb in the parish church of Astbury, Cheshire, which reads as
follows: “Hic jacent Radulphus Brereton miles et domina Ada uxor sua,
una filiarum Davidis comitis Huntingdonis.” [Here lies Ralph Brereton
Knt. and lady Ada his wife, daughter of David, Earl of Huntingdon].
This same inscription and/or alleged marriage are elsewhere mentioned
in numerous secondary sources such as Gentleman's Magazine.n.s. 9
579; Yates, History of the Ancient Town and Borough of Congleton
(1820): 141; Archaeologia 33 (1849): 59–60; Hamer & Lloyd, Hist. of
176; Colls. His. & Arch. Rel. to Montgomeryshire 14 (1881): 61–63;
Advertiser Notes & Queries (1882): 23; Lloyd, Hist. of the Princes,
the Lords Marcher, & the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog 3 (1882): 92
(Brereton pedigree); Trans. of the Lancashire & Cheshire Antiq. Soc. 7
(1889): 286–287; Trans. of the Hist. Soc. of Lancashire & Cheshire 76
(1924): 43; Notes & Queries, 172 (1937): 298, 337, 393, 447; Dalton,
MSS of St. George’s Chapel (1957): 409; Brereton, Letter Books of Sir
62.
Erdeswicke, Survey of Staffordshire (1820): 172 further alleges that
Ada, widow of Henry de Hastings, married William Hansacre [Handsacre],
of Staffordshire. Still yet, a modern pedigree of the family of Earls
of Chester found in Banks, Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 1
(1807): 210 states that “An old MS. Visitation Book of Cheshire says,
she [Ada] married, second, William Handsacre, and, third, Sir Ralph
Brereton, of Brereton, knight.” Contemporary records, however, do not
support either of these “extra” marriages for Ada de Huntingdon.
We've already seen that Ada of Huntingdon, wife of Sir Henry de
Hastings, predeceased her husband shortly before Trinity term 1242
(date of lawsuit). Thus, Ada of Huntingdon can not possibly have
married (2nd) either Sir Ralph de Brereton or William Handsacre. To
date, I've found very little information regarding Sir Ralph de
Brereton, although it seems likely an individual of this name existed
in this time period. If his wife was named Ada, however, the
possibility exists that he was married to the younger Ada de Hastings,
one of the daughters of Ada of Huntingdon. My research shows that in
1252 the younger Ada de Hastings, being then a ward of the king, she
was abducted by Hubert Hovel, Knt., and married to him without the
king’s license. In Feb. 1252 the king ordered Hubert’s arrest for
having “committed many trespasses in the realm against the king’s
crown and peace.” He was subsequently arrested by the Sheriff of
Bedfordshire. The following year, 1253, the king pardoned Hubert
Hovel, and commanded the Sheriff of Bedfordshire to permit him to go
free. Sir Hubert Hovel died before Hilary term 1258, when his widow,
Ada, claimed dower in the third part of the manor of Harpol, Suffolk.
She released her claim to brother-in-law, Robert Hovel, senior, in
return for an annuity of two marks of silver, plus a one-time payment
of ten marls of silver. Ada was living in 1260–1261, put she put in
her claim to property in Wickham, Suffolk in a fine recorded that
year. She is possibly the Ada Hovel who occurs on the 1301 lay
236–256; Brown, Yorkshire Lay Subsidy (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser.
21) (1898): 1–8; Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 61,
63; Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 1 (1905): 397–399; Cal. Patent Rolls,
59–60, 74 (Hovel pedigree); Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 336, footnote
a (sub Pecche)]. Thus, Ada de Hastings was a young widow in 1258, and
can easily have remarried. Unfortunately, the subsequent history of
Ada de Hastings is unknown. She may possibly have died without
remarrying, or she may have married Sir Ralph de Brereton, Knt., of
Brereton, Cheshire.
As for William de Handsacre, a bit more is known of him. His wife was
not named Ada at all, rather her name was Ala or Alice. My research
indicates that in Hilary term 1279 Alice widow of William son of
Geoffrey Fitz Warine stated she previously brought a writ of dower
against William de Handesacre and Alice his wife regarding tenements
in Tipton, Staffordshire. In Michaelmas 1282 Ala, widow of William de
Handsacre, sued Thomas le Harpur and Richard le Carpenter, both of
Handsacre, Staffordshire, for the third part of two messuages and
various lands in the vill of Handsacre, Staffordshire as her dower.
In Michaelmas 1287 the Sheriff was ordered to raise 13 marks from the
lands and chattels of Ala, widow of William de Handesacre, and two
others, executors of the will of William de Handesacre, and bring them
into court to pay them to Roger le Escot, of Nottingham, for a debt.
In 1293 Ala widow of William de Handesacre and Thomas le Harpur were
attached to answer the plea of William de Waleton and Alice his wife
[References: Colls. Hist. Staffs. 6(1) (1885): 99, 125, 127, 135, 172,
231, 252]. The possibility exists that William de Handsacre's wife,
Alice or Ala, was formerly married to Sir Ralph de Brereton, of
Brereton, Cheshire. But, if so, Sir Ralph de Brereton can not have
married Ada de Hastings, the daughter of Ada of Huntingdon, as William
de Handsacre's wife was named Alice or Ala.
In conclusion, it is clear that Ada of Huntingdon had but one husband,
Sir Henry de Hastings. She did not marry (2nd) Sir Ralph de Brereton
or William de Handsacre. The possibility exists that Sir Ralph de
Brereton may have been married to her daughter, Ada de Hastings, widow
of Sir Hubert Hovel. It is also possible that Sir Ralph de Brereton's
widow married William de Handsacre. However, if so, Sir Ralph de
Brereton can not have been married to Ada de Hastings, as William de
Handsacre's wife was named Alice or Ala. Further study is needed to
resolve this points.
For interest's sake, I've listed below the names of the numerous 17th
Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Henry de Hastings
Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Christopher Batt,
Anne Baynton, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah
Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent,
Thomas Bressey, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Jeremy Clarke,
Matthew Clarkson, James & Norton Claypoole, St. Leger Codd, Francis
Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer,
Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Nathaniel Littleton, Simon
Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne
Mauleverer, Richard More, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John
Oxenbridge, Richard Palgrave, Richard Parker, Herbert Pelham, Robert
Peyton, George Reade, William Rodney, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard
Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna
Somerset, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Olive Welby, John
West, Thomas Wingfield.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-------------------------------
Merilyn Pedrick
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Once more it seems dear old James Cudworth hasn't made the list of
descendants. I have him as 12th great grandson of Henry de Hastings.
Please tell me if this is incorrect:

1. Sir Henry Hastings born 1206 married Ada of Huntington

2. Henry Hastings born 1235 married Joan de Cantilupe

3. John Hastings born 1262 married Isabel de Valence

4. John Hastings born 1286 married Julianna de Leybourne

5. Alice Hastings born 1340 married Thomas Cotton

6. John Cotton born 1380 married Bridgette Grace

7. Walter Cotton married Joan Rede

8. Joan Cotton married Richard Sturgeon

9. Joan Sturgeon married Thomas Frowicke

10. Isabel Frowicke married Sir Thomas Hawte

11. Jane Hawte married Robert Wrothe

12. Dorothy Wrothe married Edward Lewknor

13. Mary Lewknor married Matthew Machell

14. Mary Machell married Rev. Ralph Cudworth

15. James Cudworth

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick





-------Original Message-------



From: Douglas Richardson

Date: 4/12/2008 2:30:21 AM

To: gen-***@rootsweb.com

Subject: Ada of Huntingdon (died c.1242), wife of Henry de Hastings, Knt.



Dear Newsgroup ~



Sir Henry de Hastings, Knt. (born c.1205, died 1250), King's

Dispenser, 1226/8, 1236, hereditary Steward of the Abbey of Bury St.

Edmunds, is known to have married Ada of Huntingdon, 4th daughter of

David, Earl of Huntingdon, by Maud, daughter of Hugh, Earl of

Chester. Most sources don't provide the date of this marriage, but it

Evidently occurred in or after 1224, when Henry's marriage was granted

By the king to Osbert Giffard. Ada of Huntingdon certainly has

Illustrious ancestry, as her father was a younger brother of William

The Lion, King of Scotland; also Ada's mother, Maud of Chester, was a

Lineal descendant of King Henry I of England. Sir Henry and Ada de

Hastings had four known children, namely one son, Henry, Knt., and

Three daughters, Ada (wife of Hubert Hovel, Knt.), Margery, and

Hillary (wife of William de Harcourt, Knt.).



As for Ada of Huntingdon herself, all the sources I've consulted so

Far seem to be rather vague as to the date of her death. As such,

I've had to do original research to determine exactly when she died.

Ada was certainly living in 1237, when she was co-heiress to her

Brother, John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon. She was

Likewise living in June 1241, when Stephen de Meverel sued William de

Ferrers, Earl of Derby, and Agnes his wife regarding the advowson of

Gatton, Staffordshire; William and Agnes appeared by attorney, and

Stated that the advowson formed part of the inheritance of Agnes,

Which fell to her by the death of Ranulph, Earl of Chester, and that

They could not answer without their co-parceners, , viz., Hugh de

Aubeney, Earl of Arundel, Hawise de Quincy, Countess of Lincoln, Henry

De Hastings and Ada his wife, Isabel de Brus, John de Balliol and

Dervorgoil his wife, and William de Forz, and Christian his wife [see

Colls. Hist. Staffs. 4 (1883): 90-102]. Ada was last known to be

Living 4 August 1241, but died before Trinity term 1242 (date of

Lawsuit) [see Curia Regis Rolls, 18 (1999): 21, 104–105, 193–194, 314,

335, 339; 19 (2002): 26, 48, 416].



That Ada predeceased her husband, Sir Henry de Hastings, is further

Proven by the Pipe Rolls of 1247, which record that Henry de Hastings

Was then holding the manors of Condover and Worfield, Shropshire, “by

Reason of the heirs of Ada his wife whom he has by the said Ada” (that

Is, he was holding Ada's lands by courtesy of England) [see Eyton,

Antiqs. Of Shropshire 3 (1856): 108]. Sir Henry de Hastings died

Shortly before 9 August 1250. On 8 Jan. 1251, the king granted the

Manor of Yardley Hastings, Northamptonshire, which was part of his

Wife, Ada’s inheritance, together with other four Hastings family

Manors to his half-brother, Guy de Lusignan, to hold during the

Minority of the heir. The king likewise granted other parts of Ada’s

Inheritance, namely, the manors of Brampton, Huntingdonshire and

Worfield, Shropshire, to another of his half-brothers, Geoffrey de

Lusignan, on 25 Jan. 1251 and 28 July 1251 respectively, to hold

During the minority of the heir. The granting of Ada's inheritance by

The king proves conclusively that Ada was then deceased, otherwise

Following her husband's death, she would have held her lands in her

Own right, together with any future husband, if she had remarried.



Curiously, in a modern pedigree of the Brereton family of Cheshire

Found in Ormerod, Hist. Of Chester, 3 (1819): 51, the author states

That Sir Ralph Brereton, of Brereton, Knt. Is “said in some pedigrees

To marry Ada, daughter of David earl of Huntingdon, relict of Henry

Hastings.” On page 19 of the same volume, the author quotes a

Seemingly authentic inscription cut in capitals within an arch over an

Ancient tomb in the parish church of Astbury, Cheshire, which reads as

Follows: “Hic jacent Radulphus Brereton miles et domina Ada uxor sua,

Una filiarum Davidis comitis Huntingdonis.” [Here lies Ralph Brereton

Knt. And lady Ada his wife, daughter of David, Earl of Huntingdon].

This same inscription and/or alleged marriage are elsewhere mentioned

In numerous secondary sources such as Gentleman's Magazine.n.s. 9

(1816): 577; Hanshall, Hist. Of the County Palatine of Chester (1817):

579; Yates, History of the Ancient Town and Borough of Congleton

(1820): 141; Archaeologia 33 (1849): 59–60; Hamer & Lloyd, Hist. of

the Par. of Llangurig (1875): 74; Arch. Cambrensis 4th ser. 11 (1880):

176; Colls. His. & Arch. Rel. to Montgomeryshire 14 (1881): 61–63;

Advertiser Notes & Queries (1882): 23; Lloyd, Hist. of the Princes,

the Lords Marcher, & the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog 3 (1882): 92

(Brereton pedigree); Trans. of the Lancashire & Cheshire Antiq. Soc. 7

(1889): 286–287; Trans. of the Hist. Soc. of Lancashire & Cheshire 76

(1924): 43; Notes & Queries, 172 (1937): 298, 337, 393, 447; Dalton,

MSS of St. George’s Chapel (1957): 409; Brereton, Letter Books of Sir

William Brereton 2 (Rec. Soc. of Lancashire & Cheshire 128) (1990):

62.



Erdeswicke, Survey of Staffordshire (1820): 172 further alleges that

Ada, widow of Henry de Hastings, married William Hansacre [Handsacre],

of Staffordshire. Still yet, a modern pedigree of the family of Earls

of Chester found in Banks, Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 1

(1807): 210 states that “An old MS. Visitation Book of Cheshire says,

she [Ada] married, second, William Handsacre, and, third, Sir Ralph

Brereton, of Brereton, knight.” Contemporary records, however, do not

support either of these “extra” marriages for Ada de Huntingdon.



We've already seen that Ada of Huntingdon, wife of Sir Henry de

Hastings, predeceased her husband shortly before Trinity term 1242

(date of lawsuit). Thus, Ada of Huntingdon can not possibly have

married (2nd) either Sir Ralph de Brereton or William Handsacre. To

date, I've found very little information regarding Sir Ralph de

Brereton, although it seems likely an individual of this name existed

in this time period. If his wife was named Ada, however, the

possibility exists that he was married to the younger Ada de Hastings,

one of the daughters of Ada of Huntingdon. My research shows that in

1252 the younger Ada de Hastings, being then a ward of the king, she

was abducted by Hubert Hovel, Knt., and married to him without the

king’s license. In Feb. 1252 the king ordered Hubert’s arrest for

having “committed many trespasses in the realm against the king’s

crown and peace.” He was subsequently arrested by the Sheriff of

Bedfordshire. The following year, 1253, the king pardoned Hubert

Hovel, and commanded the Sheriff of Bedfordshire to permit him to go

free. Sir Hubert Hovel died before Hilary term 1258, when his widow,

Ada, claimed dower in the third part of the manor of Harpol, Suffolk.

She released her claim to brother-in-law, Robert Hovel, senior, in

return for an annuity of two marks of silver, plus a one-time payment

of ten marls of silver. Ada was living in 1260–1261, put she put in

her claim to property in Wickham, Suffolk in a fine recorded that

year. She is possibly the Ada Hovel who occurs on the 1301 lay

subsidy at Cundale, Yorkshire [References: Arch. Journal, 26 (1869):

236–256; Brown, Yorkshire Lay Subsidy (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser.

21) (1898): 1–8; Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 61,

63; Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 1 (1905): 397–399; Cal. Patent Rolls,

1247–1258 (1908): 130, 191; Muskett, Suffolk Manorial Fams. 2 (1908):

59–60, 74 (Hovel pedigree); Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 336, footnote

a (sub Pecche)]. Thus, Ada de Hastings was a young widow in 1258, and

can easily have remarried. Unfortunately, the subsequent history of

Ada de Hastings is unknown. She may possibly have died without

remarrying, or she may have married Sir Ralph de Brereton, Knt., of

Brereton, Cheshire.



As for William de Handsacre, a bit more is known of him. His wife was

not named Ada at all, rather her name was Ala or Alice. My research

indicates that in Hilary term 1279 Alice widow of William son of

Geoffrey Fitz Warine stated she previously brought a writ of dower

against William de Handesacre and Alice his wife regarding tenements

in Tipton, Staffordshire. In Michaelmas 1282 Ala, widow of William de

Handsacre, sued Thomas le Harpur and Richard le Carpenter, both of

Handsacre, Staffordshire, for the third part of two messuages and

various lands in the vill of Handsacre, Staffordshire as her dower.

In Michaelmas 1287 the Sheriff was ordered to raise 13 marks from the

lands and chattels of Ala, widow of William de Handesacre, and two

others, executors of the will of William de Handesacre, and bring them

into court to pay them to Roger le Escot, of Nottingham, for a debt.

In 1293 Ala widow of William de Handesacre and Thomas le Harpur were

attached to answer the plea of William de Waleton and Alice his wife

[References: Colls. Hist. Staffs. 6(1) (1885): 99, 125, 127, 135, 172,

231, 252]. The possibility exists that William de Handsacre's wife,

Alice or Ala, was formerly married to Sir Ralph de Brereton, of

Brereton, Cheshire. But, if so, Sir Ralph de Brereton can not have

married Ada de Hastings, the daughter of Ada of Huntingdon, as William

de Handsacre's wife was named Alice or Ala.



In conclusion, it is clear that Ada of Huntingdon had but one husband,

Sir Henry de Hastings. She did not marry (2nd) Sir Ralph de Brereton

or William de Handsacre. The possibility exists that Sir Ralph de

Brereton may have been married to her daughter, Ada de Hastings, widow

of Sir Hubert Hovel. It is also possible that Sir Ralph de Brereton's

widow married William de Handsacre. However, if so, Sir Ralph de

Brereton can not have been married to Ada de Hastings, as William de

Handsacre's wife was named Alice or Ala. Further study is needed to

resolve this points.



For interest's sake, I've listed below the names of the numerous 17th

Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Henry de Hastings

(died 1250), and his wife, Ada of Huntingdon (died c.1242):



Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Christopher Batt,

Anne Baynton, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah

Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent,

Thomas Bressey, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Jeremy Clarke,

Matthew Clarkson, James & Norton Claypoole, St. Leger Codd, Francis

Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer,

Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham

Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Nathaniel Littleton, Simon

Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne

Mauleverer, Richard More, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John

Oxenbridge, Richard Palgrave, Richard Parker, Herbert Pelham, Robert

Peyton, George Reade, William Rodney, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard

Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna

Somerset, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Olive Welby, John

West, Thomas Wingfield.



Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah





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.
Douglas Richardson
2008-12-04 01:28:54 UTC
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The line you have proposed for James Cudworth breaks between
Generations 4 and 5.

John de Hastings (Gen. 4) has no living descendants.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Dec 3, 4:56 pm, "Merilyn Pedrick"
<***@internode.on.net> wrote:
< Once more it seems dear old James Cudworth hasn't made the list of
< descendants.  I have him as 12th great grandson of Henry de
Hastings.
< Please tell me if this is incorrect:
<
< 1. Sir Henry Hastings born 1206 married Ada of Huntington
<
< 2. Henry Hastings born 1235 married Joan de Cantilupe
<
< 3. John Hastings born 1262 married Isabel de Valence
<
< 4. John Hastings born 1286 married Julianna de Leybourne
<
< 5. Alice Hastings born 1340 married Thomas Cotton
<
< 6. John Cotton born 1380 married Bridgette Grace
<
< 7. Walter Cotton married Joan Rede
<
< 8. Joan Cotton married Richard Sturgeon
<
< 9. Joan Sturgeon married Thomas Frowicke
<
< 10. Isabel Frowicke married Sir Thomas Hawte
<
< 11. Jane Hawte married Robert Wrothe
<
< 12. Dorothy Wrothe married Edward Lewknor
<
< 13. Mary Lewknor married Matthew Machell
<
< 14. Mary Machell married Rev. Ralph Cudworth
<
< 15. James Cudworth

< Best wishes
<
< Merilyn Pedrick
W***@aol.com
2008-12-04 00:10:02 UTC
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In a message dated 12/3/2008 3:57:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@internode.on.net writes:

4. John Hastings born 1286 married Julianna de Leybourne

5. Alice Hastings born 1340 married Thomas Cotton>>


-----------------------

You might find that John, 2nd Lord Hastings, who married Julian de Leybourne
"three years old at her father's death", himself died 20 Jan 1324/5.

That is John died 15 years before you have his daughter Alice being born.
So that's one problem.

Will Johnson
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
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Douglas Richardson
2008-12-04 01:49:06 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

For those interested in the Brereton family, there is a picture of the
inscription on the alleged tomb of Sir Ralph de Brereton and his wife,
Ada, at the following weblink:

http://www.thornber.net/cheshire/htmlfiles/astbury.html

Ormerod thought the inscription was "in characters more modern than
the rest of the monument" [Reference: Ormerod, Hist. of Chester, 3
(1819): 51]. Thus, the inscription is probably not contemporary to
the actual tomb, but was added later. My guess is that the
inscription dates from after 1400, as the "de" is noticeably missing
from "de Brereton."

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
W***@aol.com
2008-12-04 02:06:13 UTC
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Marilyn, the John de Hastings you want, as father of Alice, is not John the
2nd Lord Hastings.

But rather John de Hastings of Landwade, co Camb; esq

This is the man, given as the father of Alice (Hastings) Cotton

Will Johnson
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
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Merilyn Pedrick
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Thanks Will
Any idea where I might find him? I'll try Genealogics etc to start with.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: ***@aol.com
Date: 4/12/2008 12:36:54 PM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ada of Huntingdon (died c.1242), wife of Henry de Hastings, Knt


Marilyn, the John de Hastings you want, as father of Alice, is not John the
2nd Lord Hastings.

But rather John de Hastings of Landwade, co Camb; esq

This is the man, given as the father of Alice (Hastings) Cotton

Will Johnson
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
(http://www.aol
com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)

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W***@aol.com
2008-12-04 02:23:38 UTC
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In a message dated 12/3/2008 6:19:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@internode.on.net writes:

Thanks Will
Any idea where I might find him?
--------------
The family of Cotton of Landwade has a few write-ups for example see
_http://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA382_
(http://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA382)

Will Johnson
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
j***@yahoo.com
2008-12-04 05:09:21 UTC
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In a message dated 12/3/2008 6:19:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
Thanks Will
Any idea where I might find  him?
--------------
The family of Cotton of Landwade has a few write-ups for example see
_http://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA382_
(http://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA382)
Will Johnson
The cited source here is Wotton's Baronetage of England, published in
1771, which appears to agree with the pedigree of Cotton of Landwade
in the 1619 Visitation of Cambridgeshire - no doubt because one is
based on the other. However, it's worth noting that two reputable
genealogists of the 20th century, Walter Goodwin Davis in his
"Ancestry of Mary Isaac" and John B. Threlfall in an article titled
"Thomas Bradbury's Cotton Ancestry" in vol. 57 of TAG, declined to
carry the Cotton ancestry back further than John Cotton (d. 1393) who
was the father of Walter Cotton who married Joan Rede. And Threlfall
and Davis both disagree with the Visitation regarding the name of
John's wife, calling her Margaret, while the visitation calls her
Bridget Grace (although it's of course possible that John had two
wives).

To put it another way, it appears that John is the earliest generation
that can be supported by primary sources. This caution on their parts
should probably lead one to be somewhat careful about relying on the
earlier generations of the visitation pedigree - including the one
mentioning John Hastings of Landwade.

In addition, Google Books comes up with an intriguing snippet from a
1939 issue of Notes and Queries which talks about "several imaginary
accounts of the origin of the Cotton family and of its association
with Landwade". Probably yet another reason to be cautious....
Merilyn Pedrick
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Reply
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Oh I HATE it when this happens. Why can't people be who I thought they were
in the first place!
But thanks anyway. It looks as though I'm going to be doing some unlinking.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: ***@yahoo.com
Date: 4/12/2008 3:49:55 PM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Cotton of Landwade [was: Ada of Huntingdon (died c.1242), wife of
Henry de Hastings, Knt.]
Post by W***@aol.com
In a message dated 12/3/2008 6:19:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Thanks Will
Any idea where I might find him?
--------------
The family of Cotton of Landwade has a few write-ups for example see
_http://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA382_
(http://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA382)
Will Johnson
The cited source here is Wotton's Baronetage of England, published in
1771, which appears to agree with the pedigree of Cotton of Landwade
in the 1619 Visitation of Cambridgeshire - no doubt because one is
based on the other. However, it's worth noting that two reputable
genealogists of the 20th century, Walter Goodwin Davis in his
"Ancestry of Mary Isaac" and John B. Threlfall in an article titled
"Thomas Bradbury's Cotton Ancestry" in vol. 57 of TAG, declined to
carry the Cotton ancestry back further than John Cotton (d. 1393) who
was the father of Walter Cotton who married Joan Rede. And Threlfall
and Davis both disagree with the Visitation regarding the name of
John's wife, calling her Margaret, while the visitation calls her
Bridget Grace (although it's of course possible that John had two
wives).

To put it another way, it appears that John is the earliest generation
that can be supported by primary sources. This caution on their parts
should probably lead one to be somewhat careful about relying on the
earlier generations of the visitation pedigree - including the one
mentioning John Hastings of Landwade.

In addition, Google Books comes up with an intriguing snippet from a
1939 issue of Notes and Queries which talks about "several imaginary
accounts of the origin of the Cotton family and of its association
with Landwade". Probably yet another reason to be cautious....


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W***@aol.com
2008-12-04 02:29:24 UTC
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By the way, the BHO writeup on Landwade, raises suspicion about the supposed
marriages carrying the Cottons back to the Hastings heiress. If you read
between the lines.

_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=18944_
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=18944)

Will Johnson
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
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Douglas Richardson
2008-12-07 16:10:20 UTC
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Dear Newgroup ~

In my post this past week regarding Ada of Huntingdon, wife of Sir
Henry de Hastings, I stated that Ada de Huntingdon did not marry (2nd)
either Ralph de Brereton or William de Handsacre. Rather, I gave
evidence which proved that Ada of Huntingdon predeceased her husband c.
1242. I raised the possibility, however, that Ada of Huntingdon's
daughter, Ada de Hastings, might have married Sir Ralph de Brereton,
even though there is no real evidence to support the marriage.

In the intervening time, I've given the matter further thought. What
we know of the younger Ada de Hastings is given below:

ADA DE HASTINGS. In 1252, being then a ward of the king, she was
abducted by HUBERT HOVEL, Knt., and married to him without the king’s
license. He was a younger son of Robert Hovel, Knt., of Wyverstone,
Suffolk. In Feb. 1252 the king ordered Hubert’s arrest for having
“committed many trespasses in the realm against the king’s crown and
peace.” He was subsequently arrested by the Sheriff of Bedfordshire.
The following year, 1253, the king pardoned Hubert, and commanded the
Sheriff of Bedfordshire to permit him to go free. SIR HUBERT HOVEL
died before Hilary term 1258, when his widow, Ada, claimed dower in
the third part of the manor of Harpol, Suffolk. She released her
claim to brother-in-law, Robert Hovel, senior, in return for an
annuity of two marks of silver, plus a one-time payment of ten marls
of silver. Ada was living in 1260–1261, put she put in her claim to
property in Wickham, Suffolk in a fine recorded that year. She is
possibly the Ada Hovel who occurs on the 1301 lay subsidy at Cundale,
Yorkshire. References: Arch. Journal 26 (1869): 236–256. Brown,
Yorkshire Lay Subsidy (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 21) (1898): 1–
8. Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 61, 63. Copinger,
Manors of Suffolk 1 (1905): 397–399. C.P.R. 1247–1258 (1908): 130,
191. Muskett, Suffolk Manorial Fams. 2 (1908): 59–60, 74 (Hovel
pedigree). C.P. 10 (1945): 336, footnote a (sub Pecche).

As we can see, Ada de Hastings was widowed c.1258, and was free to
remarry at that point. My guess is that she married not Sir Ralph de
Brereton, but rather I suspect she is the Ada who married Sir Guy
Botetourt, Knt., of Little Ellingham, Norfolk (died c.1316), and was
the mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt (died
1324). If so, this would help explain Sir John Botetourt's subsequent
meteoric career and his elevation to a peer.

The evidence for this connection is the manor of Great Bradley,
Suffolk, which John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt held about
1316, for which see Feudal Aids, 5 (1908): 45. That record may be
viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=moBnAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Feudal+Aids+Little+Bradley&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=2_1#PPA45,M1

There is a fine dated 1309–1310, whereby William Fitz Walter conveyed
to John and his wife, Maud, the manor of Great Bradley, Suffolk. This
may not have been a purchase, however, but rather a settlement of the
manor. See weblink below for this conveyance:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA119,M1

Ada de Hastings' paternal grandmother, Margaret le Bigod, is alleged
by Dugdale to have had the manor of Little Bradley, Suffolk in
marriage, which might well be true. However, I don't find any of the
later male members of the Hastings family dealing with this manor, so
the manor was probably passed in marriage to one of the later Hastings
women in this time period. If it was given to Ada de Hastings, it
would have passed to her descendants. The land holdings of Little
and Great Bradley appear to have been mixed. So it is possible that
Ada de Hastings' grandmother, Margaret le Bigod, was given property in
both parishes as her maritagium.

The Bigod family certainly had an interest in Great Bradley, Suffolk,
and its advowson, as indicated by fines on these two weblinks:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1

Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, however, had the
advowson in this place before 1316, when he presented his brother,
Master Roger Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. The
advowson thereafter descended in the Botetourt family. See the
following weblink:

http://www.great-bradley.suffolk.gov.uk/Great%20Bradley%20church_files/rectors.htm

I show that Ada, mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., was living in
1305–1306, when a settlement was made of the manor of Cranworth,
Norfolk, and property in Wood Rising, Norfolk [see Rye, Short Cal. of
Feet of Fines for Norfolk 2 (1886): 230]. I don't find Ada in records
after this date. If Great Bradley had been her property, she
presumably would have died before 1311, when the manor was settled on
Sir John Botetourt and his wife, Maud.

This is a speculative theory. Please treat it as such.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2008-12-07 16:40:50 UTC
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Dear Newgroup ~

That property was held at Bradley, Suffolk by the Bigod family as
early as the 12th century is indicated by Katharine Keats-Rohan's
newsletter, Prosopon, No. 10 (1999), pg. 3, that

"Adeliza Bigod was addressed in writs of Henry I and Stephen
concerning tithes at Bradley, Suffolk: Regesta Regum Anglo-
Normannorum, II, nos 1485, 1495; III, no. 82."

So there can be no doubt that the Bigod family had land holdings in
Bradley, Suffolk well before the marriage of Margaret (or Margery) le
Bigod and William de Hastings.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2008-12-07 17:03:01 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

The weblink below gives several interesting records pertaining to
Bradley, Suffolk in the early medieval period. These documents
include the writs to Adeliza de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, by Kings
Henry I and Stephen mentioned by Katharine Keats-Rohan's newsletter,
Prosopon. Bradley appears to have been Adeliza de Tony's own
property.

http://books.google.com/books?id=agoRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA157&dq=Bigod+Great+Bradley#PPA157,M1

The demense of W. Bigote at Bradley is mentioned in 1221, as well as
the demesne of Thomas de Bigot, Knt. in 1239.

No mention is made of the Hastings and Botetourt family in any of
these records.

I do note that John de Asphale, Knt., was styled the patron of the
church of Great Bradley, Suffolk in 1290, when Lodewycam de Colkefeld
was rector of the church.

Elsewhere, at the weblink below, it appears that "Ludswick" eventually
resigned as rector, and in 1311 Robert Boutetourt (brother of Sir John
Botetourt) was appointed rector by a "sequestrator."

http://www.great-bradley.suffolk.gov.uk/Great%20Bradley%20church_files/rectors.htm

The reference to a "sequestrator" presumably means that there was
legal action in 1311, regarding the ownership of the advowson of Great
Bradley, Suffolk. Presumably Sir John Botetourt won the fight, as his
brother was appointed rector. Such legal battles over advowsons were
sometimes waged over more than one generation.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2008-12-07 17:17:20 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

The record below indicates that William Bygod was lord of Great
Bradley, Suffolk in 1288-1289. If so, this doesn't explain how or why
John de Asphale, Knt. was styled patron of the church of Great
Bradley, Suffolk in 1290. Certainly the manor and the advowson were
later held together by the Botetourt family. We may be seeing two or
three different levels of ownership of the manor and advowson of Great
Bradley, Suffolk.

National Archives, E 40/3775
Grant by William Bygod, lord of Great Bradley near St. Edmund's, to
Henry de Lenne, clerk, of a messuage in St. Edmunds, formerly
belonging to Sir Peter de Bedingfeud, knight, abutting on . . . . .
rmanhil in the street called 'Maydenwaterstrete,' paying the sacristan
of St. Edmunds ½d. yearly for Hadgavel. (Suff.)
Covering dates 17 Edward I [1289-1290].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Merilyn Pedrick
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Dear Douglas

It would be great if this can be proved. It would then give James Cudworth
a descent from Ada de Huntingdon and Henry de Hastings, via: 1. Sir John
Botetourt born 1270

2. Elizabeth Botetourt

3. Elizabeth Latimer

4. Sir Thomas de Camoys born 1351

5. Richard de Camoys died 1421

6. Eleanor de Camoys born 1409

7. Elizabeth Lewknor married 1458

8. John Wrothe born 1457

9. Robert Wrothe

10. Dorothy Wrothe born 1528

11. Mary Lewknor married 1568

12. Mary Machell 1574

13. James Cudworth

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick

Aldgate, South Australia



-------Original Message-------



From: Douglas Richardson

Date: 12/08/08 02:45:12

To: gen-***@rootsweb.com

Subject: Speculative theory: Was Ada de Hastings the mother of John
Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt



Dear Newgroup ~



In my post this past week regarding Ada of Huntingdon, wife of Sir

Henry de Hastings, I stated that Ada de Huntingdon did not marry (2nd)

Either Ralph de Brereton or William de Handsacre. Rather, I gave

Evidence which proved that Ada of Huntingdon predeceased her husband c.

1242. I raised the possibility, however, that Ada of Huntingdon's

Daughter, Ada de Hastings, might have married Sir Ralph de Brereton,

Even though there is no real evidence to support the marriage.



In the intervening time, I've given the matter further thought. What

We know of the younger Ada de Hastings is given below:



ADA DE HASTINGS. In 1252, being then a ward of the king, she was

Abducted by HUBERT HOVEL, Knt., and married to him without the king’s

License. He was a younger son of Robert Hovel, Knt., of Wyverstone,

Suffolk. In Feb. 1252 the king ordered Hubert’s arrest for having

“committed many trespasses in the realm against the king’s crown and

Peace.” He was subsequently arrested by the Sheriff of Bedfordshire.

The following year, 1253, the king pardoned Hubert, and commanded the

Sheriff of Bedfordshire to permit him to go free. SIR HUBERT HOVEL

Died before Hilary term 1258, when his widow, Ada, claimed dower in

The third part of the manor of Harpol, Suffolk. She released her

Claim to brother-in-law, Robert Hovel, senior, in return for an

Annuity of two marks of silver, plus a one-time payment of ten marls

Of silver. Ada was living in 1260–1261, put she put in her claim to

Property in Wickham, Suffolk in a fine recorded that year. She is

Possibly the Ada Hovel who occurs on the 1301 lay subsidy at Cundale,

Yorkshire. References: Arch. Journal 26 (1869): 236–256. Brown,

Yorkshire Lay Subsidy (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 21) (1898): 1–

8. Rye, Cal. Of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 61, 63. Copinger,

Manors of Suffolk 1 (1905): 397–399. C.P.R. 1247–1258 (1908): 130,

191. Muskett, Suffolk Manorial Fams. 2 (1908): 59–60, 74 (Hovel

Pedigree). C.P. 10 (1945): 336, footnote a (sub Pecche).



As we can see, Ada de Hastings was widowed c.1258, and was free to

Remarry at that point. My guess is that she married not Sir Ralph de

Brereton, but rather I suspect she is the Ada who married Sir Guy

Botetourt, Knt., of Little Ellingham, Norfolk (died c.1316), and was

The mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt (died

1324). If so, this would help explain Sir John Botetourt's subsequent

Meteoric career and his elevation to a peer.



The evidence for this connection is the manor of Great Bradley,

Suffolk, which John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt held about

1316, for which see Feudal Aids, 5 (1908): 45. That record may be

Viewed at the following weblink:



http://books.google
com/books?id=moBnAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Feudal+Aids+Little+Bradley&s
urce=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=2_1#PPA45,M1



There is a fine dated 1309–1310, whereby William Fitz Walter conveyed

To John and his wife, Maud, the manor of Great Bradley, Suffolk. This

May not have been a purchase, however, but rather a settlement of the

Manor. See weblink below for this conveyance:



http://books.google
com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&sour
e=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resn
m=1&ct=result#PPA119,M1



Ada de Hastings' paternal grandmother, Margaret Le Bigod, is alleged

By Dugdale to have had the manor of Little Bradley, Suffolk in

Marriage, which might well be true. However, I don't find any of the

Later male members of the Hastings family dealing with this manor, so

The manor was probably passed in marriage to one of the later Hastings

Women in this time period. If it was given to Ada de Hastings, it

Would have passed to her descendants. The land holdings of Little

And Great Bradley appear to have been mixed. So it is possible that

Ada de Hastings' grandmother, Margaret le Bigod, was given property in

both parishes as her maritagium.



The Bigod family certainly had an interest in Great Bradley, Suffolk,

and its advowson, as indicated by fines on these two weblinks:



http://books.google
com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&sour
e=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resn
m=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1



http://books.google
com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&sour
e=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resn
m=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1



Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, however, had the

advowson in this place before 1316, when he presented his brother,

Master Roger Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. The

advowson thereafter descended in the Botetourt family. See the

following weblink:



http://www.great-bradley.suffolk.gov
uk/Great%20Bradley%20church_files/rectors.htm



I show that Ada, mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., was living in

1305–1306, when a settlement was made of the manor of Cranworth,

Norfolk, and property in Wood Rising, Norfolk [see Rye, Short Cal. of

Feet of Fines for Norfolk 2 (1886): 230]. I don't find Ada in records

after this date. If Great Bradley had been her property, she

presumably would have died before 1311, when the manor was settled on

Sir John Botetourt and his wife, Maud.



This is a speculative theory. Please treat it as such.



Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah



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Douglas Richardson
2008-12-08 05:15:07 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

However, here is some slight piece of evidence in support for the
speculative theory that Sir Guy Botetourt married Ada de Hastings,
widow of Sir Hubert Hovel:

In 1306 the king gave license to John Botetourt's younger brother,
Master Roger and Robert Boutetourt, to enclose the lane on the south
side of their dwelling-place in Cambridge [Reference: Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1301–1307 (1898): 435]. Master Roger Botetourt later sold this
property alone in 1324 as “Master Roger, the son of the noble man Sir
Guy Buttetourte.” [References: Cooper, Memorials of Cambridge (1861):
215; Procs. Soc. of Antiquaries of London, 2nd Ser. 4 (1869): 200–201;
Rye, Pedes Finium or Fines Rel. Cambridge (1891): 90].

I have no idea why Master Roger Botetourt would refer to his father as
a "noble man." However, if Guy Botetourt's wife was Ada de Hastings,
it would make sense, as Ada was certainly a descendant of nobility and
of royalty.

As far as the chronology goes, it's just about perfect for Sir Guy
Botetourt to have married Ada de Hastings. We know that Ada de
Hastings' husband, Sir Hubert Hovel, died before Hilary term 1258.
Sir Guy Botetourt's eldest son by his wife, Ada, was Sir John
Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt. John was evidently born c.1260, as he
began his household career as a falconer in the 1270s. He first
campaigned in Wales in 1282 as a squire of the household. People
often began in their career in the military as young as 14 in this
time period. As such, my guess would that John Botetourt was no more
than 21 in 1282, when he first entered the military. John Botetourt's
military career eventually led to him and William de Leybourne to be
named the first Admirals of England.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
p***@tiscali.co.uk
2008-12-08 14:37:01 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
I have no idea why Master Roger Botetourt would refer to his father as
a "noble man."
OED (2nd edn) gives as its first meaning of 'noble' (adj.):
Illustrious or distinguished by virtue of position, character, or
exploits.
It gives quotations dating from c1230 to 1753

It also gives an obsolete meaning:
Distinguished by virtue of intelligence, knowledge, or skill.
It gives quotations dating from c1300 to c1660

Perhaps Master Roger was referring to character rather than social
elevation.

Peter G R Howarth
Douglas Richardson
2008-12-08 15:40:20 UTC
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Dear Peter ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

Below are some examples of the use of the words, "noble man," which I
found just now in the Patent Rolls. Curiously, in most instances, the
term refers to someone of foreign extraction. The one Englishman in
the lot is Robert de Courtenay. I have seen the term "noble man" used
elsewhere in English records. The term noble man is found much more
commonly in the papal registers. I just looked at a variety of
references in one volume of the Papal Registers. Most of the men I
recognize who are styled noble man either had noble ancestry or their
wives did, or both. A few examples: William Philipp, Knt., William
Bowes, Knt., John Philipp, Knt., Thomas Erpingham, Knt., Thomas West,
Knt., Baldwin Strange, Knt., Baldwin de Veer, John Stanley, Knt.,
William de Harington, Knt., Edmund Noon, Knt., Reynold Braybrook,
William Moleyns, etc.

However, on one page I see no less than five individuals styled "noble
man," none of whom were children of titled nobility or knights, and
none of whom are immediately recognizeable. So the term "noble man"
presumably had a broader application. I've known for some time that
someone can be "of noble birth," and not be the child of a titled
noble man. However, it would probably be pressing the point to say
that someone "of noble birth" did not have real nobility in their near
ancestry. Even so, our modern perceptions of what it means to be a
"noble man" or "of noble birth" are clearly not the same as those
found in the medieval time period.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Edward III, vol. 4, p. 370 ••
Years: 1338-1340
...MEMBRANE 1. [Agreement] between the king and the noble man Henry de
Flandres, witnessing that the said Henry is...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v4/body/Edward3vol4page0370.pdf
- Previous page - Next page

Henry III, vol. 3, p. 54 ••
Years: 1232-1247
...Bath. Acknowledgment of the king's indebtedness to the noble man H.
count of La Marche and Angouleine, in 500...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0054.pdf
- Previous page - Next page

Edward III, vol. 11, p. 108 ••
Years: 1358-1361
...named above do. ByK. Oct. 24. Certificate that the noble man
Malatesta Ungariis of Rimini (de Arminio), knight Westminster...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v11/body/Edward3vol11page0108.pdf
- Previous page - Next page

Edward II, vol. 5, p. 306 ••
Years: 1324-1327
...out of affection for the lady Mary de Biscay and the noble man John
de Biscay, lords of Biscay, for their men and...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e2v5/body/Edward2vol5page0306.pdf
- Previous page - Next page

Henry III, vol. 3, p. 190 ••
Years: 1232-1247
...Robert le Clerk, son of the king's kinsman, the noble man Robert de
Curtenay, of 100 marks a year, to be taken...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0190.pdf
- Previous page - Next page

Edward III, vol. 5, p. 189 ••
Years: 1340-1343
...business has sold to him for .. .. _ the use of the noble man and
king's liege, John de Hanonia [Hainault], 100 sacks of...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v5/body/Edward3vol5page0189.pdf
- Previous page - Next page

Edward III, vol. 4, p. 70 ••
Years: 1338-1340
...to come to the king in England as an envoy of the noble man,
Dolfinus de Vienne, while sailing on the sea towards...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v4/body/Edward3vol4page0070.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
John Watson
2008-12-08 16:17:38 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Peter ~
Thank you for your good post.  Much appreciated.
Below are some examples of the use of the words, "noble man," which I
found just now in the Patent Rolls.  Curiously, in most instances, the
term refers to someone of foreign extraction.  The one Englishman in
the lot is Robert de Courtenay.  I have seen the term "noble man" used
elsewhere in English records.  The term noble man is found much more
commonly in the papal registers.  I just looked at a variety of
references in one volume of the Papal Registers.  Most of the men I
recognize who are styled noble man either had noble ancestry or their
wives did, or both.   A few examples: William Philipp, Knt., William
Bowes, Knt., John Philipp, Knt., Thomas Erpingham, Knt., Thomas West,
Knt., Baldwin Strange, Knt., Baldwin de Veer, John Stanley, Knt.,
William de Harington, Knt., Edmund Noon, Knt., Reynold Braybrook,
William Moleyns, etc.
However, on one page I see no less than five individuals styled "noble
man," none of whom were children of titled nobility or knights, and
none of whom are immediately recognizeable.   So the term "noble man"
presumably had a broader application.  I've known for some time that
someone can be "of noble birth," and not be the child of a titled
noble man.  However, it would probably be pressing the point to say
that someone "of noble birth" did not have real nobility in their near
ancestry.  Even so,  our modern perceptions of what it means to be a
"noble man" or "of noble birth" are clearly not the same as those
found in the medieval time period.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Edward III, vol. 4, p. 370 ••
Years: 1338-1340
...MEMBRANE 1. [Agreement] between the king and the noble man Henry de
Flandres, witnessing that the said Henry is...
47% -http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v4/body/Edward3vol4page0370.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Henry III, vol. 3, p. 54 ••
Years: 1232-1247
...Bath. Acknowledgment of the king's indebtedness to the noble man H.
count of La Marche and Angouleine, in 500...
47% -http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0054.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Edward III, vol. 11, p. 108 ••
Years: 1358-1361
...named above do. ByK. Oct. 24. Certificate that the noble man
Malatesta Ungariis of Rimini (de Arminio), knight Westminster...
47% -http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v11/body/Edward3vol11page0108...
- Previous page - Next page
Edward II, vol. 5, p. 306 ••
Years: 1324-1327
...out of affection for the lady Mary de Biscay and the noble man John
de Biscay, lords of Biscay, for their men and...
47% -http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e2v5/body/Edward2vol5page0306.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Henry III, vol. 3, p. 190 ••
Years: 1232-1247
...Robert le Clerk, son of the king's kinsman, the noble man Robert de
Curtenay, of 100 marks a year, to be taken...
47% -http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0190.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Edward III, vol. 5, p. 189 ••
Years: 1340-1343
...business has sold to him for .. .. _ the use of the noble man and
king's liege, John de Hanonia [Hainault], 100 sacks of...
47% -http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v5/body/Edward3vol5page0189.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Edward III, vol. 4, p. 70 ••
Years: 1338-1340
...to come to the king in England as an envoy of the noble man,
Dolfinus de Vienne, while sailing on the sea towards...
47% -http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v4/body/Edward3vol4page0070.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Dear Douglas,

There is a difference between noble man, where noble is a description
of the person's countenance or character and nobleman which refers to
his heritage or family.

Regards,

John
Renia
2008-12-08 18:29:57 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by John Watson
Dear Douglas,
There is a difference between noble man, where noble is a description
of the person's countenance or character and nobleman which refers to
his heritage or family.
No, it's the same thing. A noble face or character is one which "looks
like" it belongs to someone of high birth.
Paulo Santos Perneta
2008-12-08 23:23:01 UTC
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Raw Message
Renia <***@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:29:57 +0200:

(..)
Post by Renia
No, it's the same thing. A noble face or character is one which "looks
like" it belongs to someone of high birth.
Or someone of high birth is "nobile" as an honorific title, the same
way we say the "Excellent Lady" and the "Illustrious Sir".
So, which is it?

Paulo
p***@tiscali.co.uk
2008-12-08 17:36:59 UTC
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Raw Message
Looking at your examples below in more detail, we are in fact not
dealing with the Middle English use of 'noble', but its use in modern
times to translate something in Latin, presumably 'nobilis'. This,
too, referred as much to nobility of character as to nobility of
birth. Of course, in mediaeval times these two concepts were closely
connected. Firstly, much of a man's character was thought to be
inherited and secondly, the rich could more easily afford to be noble
in character, since this included being generous to others.

So whilst we would expect 'nobilis' to be applied quite often to
members of the nobility, there is no reason why it should not also be
used of those of noble character from what we might now think of as
being gentry.

Peter G R Howarth

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 07:40:20 -0800 (PST), Douglas Richardson
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Peter ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
Below are some examples of the use of the words, "noble man," which I
found just now in the Patent Rolls. Curiously, in most instances, the
term refers to someone of foreign extraction. The one Englishman in
the lot is Robert de Courtenay. I have seen the term "noble man" used
elsewhere in English records. The term noble man is found much more
commonly in the papal registers. I just looked at a variety of
references in one volume of the Papal Registers. Most of the men I
recognize who are styled noble man either had noble ancestry or their
wives did, or both. A few examples: William Philipp, Knt., William
Bowes, Knt., John Philipp, Knt., Thomas Erpingham, Knt., Thomas West,
Knt., Baldwin Strange, Knt., Baldwin de Veer, John Stanley, Knt.,
William de Harington, Knt., Edmund Noon, Knt., Reynold Braybrook,
William Moleyns, etc.
However, on one page I see no less than five individuals styled "noble
man," none of whom were children of titled nobility or knights, and
none of whom are immediately recognizeable. So the term "noble man"
presumably had a broader application. I've known for some time that
someone can be "of noble birth," and not be the child of a titled
noble man. However, it would probably be pressing the point to say
that someone "of noble birth" did not have real nobility in their near
ancestry. Even so, our modern perceptions of what it means to be a
"noble man" or "of noble birth" are clearly not the same as those
found in the medieval time period.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Edward III, vol. 4, p. 370 ••
Years: 1338-1340
...MEMBRANE 1. [Agreement] between the king and the noble man Henry de
Flandres, witnessing that the said Henry is...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v4/body/Edward3vol4page0370.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Henry III, vol. 3, p. 54 ••
Years: 1232-1247
...Bath. Acknowledgment of the king's indebtedness to the noble man H.
count of La Marche and Angouleine, in 500...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0054.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Edward III, vol. 11, p. 108 ••
Years: 1358-1361
...named above do. ByK. Oct. 24. Certificate that the noble man
Malatesta Ungariis of Rimini (de Arminio), knight Westminster...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v11/body/Edward3vol11page0108.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Edward II, vol. 5, p. 306 ••
Years: 1324-1327
...out of affection for the lady Mary de Biscay and the noble man John
de Biscay, lords of Biscay, for their men and...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e2v5/body/Edward2vol5page0306.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Henry III, vol. 3, p. 190 ••
Years: 1232-1247
...Robert le Clerk, son of the king's kinsman, the noble man Robert de
Curtenay, of 100 marks a year, to be taken...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0190.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Edward III, vol. 5, p. 189 ••
Years: 1340-1343
...business has sold to him for .. .. _ the use of the noble man and
king's liege, John de Hanonia [Hainault], 100 sacks of...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v5/body/Edward3vol5page0189.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Edward III, vol. 4, p. 70 ••
Years: 1338-1340
...to come to the king in England as an envoy of the noble man,
Dolfinus de Vienne, while sailing on the sea towards...
47% - http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v4/body/Edward3vol4page0070.pdf
- Previous page - Next page
Douglas Richardson
2008-12-08 18:34:23 UTC
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Dear Peter ~

Your points are well made.

What I find striking, however, is that the use of the term "noble man"
appears in the Patent Rolls quite rarely, and, when the term is
employed, it refers almost exclusively to foreigners, whereas in the
Papal Registers the term was clearly used far less discriminately.

Any ideas why the two sources used the term so differently?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
p***@tiscali.co.uk
2008-12-08 19:23:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:34:23 -0800 (PST), Douglas Richardson
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Peter ~
Your points are well made.
What I find striking, however, is that the use of the term "noble man"
appears in the Patent Rolls quite rarely, and, when the term is
employed, it refers almost exclusively to foreigners, whereas in the
Papal Registers the term was clearly used far less discriminately.
Any ideas why the two sources used the term so differently?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I'm afraid I can only guess.

I am not clear about how far back it goes, but in Germany, France and
Italy membership of the aristocracy became significant in terms of
taxes, marriageability and so on, and all children received a title.
Thus the younger branch of the House of Brittany, who became early
lords of Richmond, were Counts 'in' Brittany (to distinguish them from
the Counts/Dukes 'of' Brittany.) In England however titles were
limited to one holder at a time and, apart from the possibility of
inheriting some land, membership of an aristocratic family did not
have the same significance.

Or maybe the tradition of attributing nobility (whether of birth or of
character) in this way had only just started to cross the Channel from
France before the Hundred Years' War broke out, and all things French
(including speaking the language) became suspect.

Peter G R Howarth
Paulo Santos Perneta
2008-12-08 23:26:09 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Peter ~
Your points are well made.
What I find striking, however, is that the use of the term "noble man"
appears in the Patent Rolls quite rarely, and, when the term is
employed, it refers almost exclusively to foreigners, whereas in the
Papal Registers the term was clearly used far less discriminately.
Doug, I seem to recall the same happening in the Portuguese deeds.
Do you have an English equivalent to the Portuguese "Fidalgo", which
is the usual way someone of well known, high placed ancestry is
referred to in our documents?

Paulo
Paulo Santos Perneta
2008-12-08 23:26:09 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Peter ~
Your points are well made.
What I find striking, however, is that the use of the term "noble man"
appears in the Patent Rolls quite rarely, and, when the term is
employed, it refers almost exclusively to foreigners, whereas in the
Papal Registers the term was clearly used far less discriminately.
Doug, I seem to recall the same happening in the Portuguese deeds.
Do you have an English equivalent to the Portuguese "Fidalgo", which
is the usual way someone of well known, high placed ancestry is
referred to in our documents?

Paulo
Paulo Santos Perneta
2008-12-09 15:40:12 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
please remember that basically, *nobility* is a social phenomenon.
Terms alluding to it are *used* in medieval documents, but no
specific law actually *usually* defined what was nobility and who
belonged to it.
Only a portion of countries, and usually only after Middle Ages,
made legislation to define their nobility. Not all countries.
In Portugal as far as I know it was the king who defined who was and
who wasn-t nobility, issuing decrees that were written in the
"Chancelarias", the Royal Books. And this includes the Middle Ages, at
least since we were constituted as Kingdom in the 12th century.
If you were against the king, you could be a Count, a Knight, even a
Prince, but if you were on the losing side all would be taken from you
and you were either executed or let to die in poverty and infamy. Most
of them, however, fled to neighbour Spain and started a new life there
(and vice-versa).

Paulo
Paulo Santos Perneta
2008-12-09 15:40:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
please remember that basically, *nobility* is a social phenomenon.
Terms alluding to it are *used* in medieval documents, but no
specific law actually *usually* defined what was nobility and who
belonged to it.
Only a portion of countries, and usually only after Middle Ages,
made legislation to define their nobility. Not all countries.
In Portugal as far as I know it was the king who defined who was and
who wasn-t nobility, issuing decrees that were written in the
"Chancelarias", the Royal Books. And this includes the Middle Ages, at
least since we were constituted as Kingdom in the 12th century.
If you were against the king, you could be a Count, a Knight, even a
Prince, but if you were on the losing side all would be taken from you
and you were either executed or let to die in poverty and infamy. Most
of them, however, fled to neighbour Spain and started a new life there
(and vice-versa).

Paulo
Paulo Santos Perneta
2008-12-09 15:40:12 UTC
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please remember that basically, *nobility* is a social phenomenon.
Terms alluding to it are *used* in medieval documents, but no
specific law actually *usually* defined what was nobility and who
belonged to it.
Only a portion of countries, and usually only after Middle Ages,
made legislation to define their nobility. Not all countries.
In Portugal as far as I know it was the king who defined who was and
who wasn-t nobility, issuing decrees that were written in the
"Chancelarias", the Royal Books. And this includes the Middle Ages, at
least since we were constituted as Kingdom in the 12th century.
If you were against the king, you could be a Count, a Knight, even a
Prince, but if you were on the losing side all would be taken from you
and you were either executed or let to die in poverty and infamy. Most
of them, however, fled to neighbour Spain and started a new life there
(and vice-versa).

Paulo
Douglas Richardson
2008-12-25 17:55:09 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Related to the recent discussion of Ada of Huntingdon (died c.1242),
wife of Sir Henry de Hastings, is the history of yet another Ada de
Hastings, the third Ada in this family. This younger Ada de Hastings
was the wife successively of Rhys ap Maredudd (died 1291), of Wales,
and Robert de Champaine (died c.1315), of Thurleston and Wigston,
Leicestershire, and Great Doddington, Northamptonshire. This Ada de
Hastings was the granddaughter of Ada of Huntingdon, she being the
daughter of the elder Ada's son, Henry de Hastings, Knt. (died 1269),
by his wife, Joan de Cantelowe. As far as I can tell, no one has ever
pieced together the records of the life of this particular Ada de
Hastings, even though her two marriages are alluded to in the 1563-4
Visitation of Yorkshire. She appears to have died without issue.

Care should be taken to distinguish this Ada de Hastings from her aunt
of the same name, also named Ada de Hastings, who married Hubert
Hovel, Knt.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Ada de Hastings, wife of Rhys ap Maredudd and Robert de Champaine

ADA DE HASTINGS, married by papal dispensation dated 10 Dec. 1283
(they being related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of kindred) RHYS AP
MAREDUDD, Knt., of Dryslwyn and Ystlwyf, Carmarthenshire, son and heir
of Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, of Dryslwyn and Llandovery, Carmarthenshire,
by ____, niece of Gilbert Marshal, Earl of Pembroke. Ada's maritagium
included Emlyn Is Cuch (in the hundred of Cilgerran), Pembrokshire,
and St. Clear’s, Carmarthenshire. They had no issue. In the crisis
of 1276–7, Rhys confirmed his loyalty to King Edward I of England.
The king granted him Dinefwr Castle, together with the commotes of
Maenordeilo, Mallaen, Caeo, and Mabelfyw, all in Cantref Mawr; he was
also granted the commotes of Gwynionydd and Mabwynion, Cardiganshire
on a limited basis. In 1277, with the defeat of Prince Llywelyn, King
Edward I retook possession of Dinefwr Castle and later reclaimed
Maenordeilo. In 1282 Rhys was granted a yearly fair to be held at the
manor of Dryslwyn. In 1282 Rhys was required to required to give up
any formal claims to Dinefwr Castle; however, he was granted the lands
of Rhys Wyndod in Caeo and Mallaen and given formal seisin of the
commotes of Gwynionydd and Mabwynion, Cardiganshire. In 1285 he was
granted a weekly market and yearly fair to be held at the manor of
Lampeter. In June 1287 he rebelled against King Edward I of England
and captured Dinefwr, Carreg Cennen, and Llandovery Castles. The king
mustered a force of 22,000 men to meet the danger; by Sept. 1287 his
castle of Dryslwyn had been captured. In Nov. 1287, however, Rhys
renewed the struggle, moving to Carmarthenshire where he captured
Newcastle Emlyn. He held out there against royalist forces until Jan.
1288, when the castle was taken. In 1290 his forfeited lands in Wales
were granted to Robert de Tibetot, to hold until Easter next, and for
the four years after. In 1290, having raised a new insurrection, Rhys
was opposed by Robert de Tibetot, the king’s justiciar. Four thousand
Welshmen were slain and Rhys was taken prisoner. SIR RHYS AP MAREDUDD
was tried at York soon after Michaelmas [29 Sept.] 1291 and there
cruelly executed. On 14 June 1293 his widow, Ada, was allowed to
retain all the lands which she held in her own right. Ada married
(2nd) before 1306 (date of settlement) (as his 2nd wife) ROBERT DE
CHAMPAINE (or CHAMPAYNE), of Thurleston and Wigston, Leicestershire,
and Great Doddington, Northamptonshire, son and heir of Nicholas de
Champaigne, of Great Doddington, Northamptonshire, by Joan, daughter
and heir of Adam son of Philip, of Northampton. He was a minor in
1274, he already being married. By his previous marriage, he was the
father of one son, Robert. In 1280–1281 Michael Fitz Durand and Mabel
his wife arraigned an assise of novel disseisin against Robert de
Champaigne and Stephen de Ouensby regarding a tenement in Doddington,
Northamptonshire. In 1281–1282 he quitclaimed a croft of land in
Collingtree, Northamptonshire to John de Wotton. In 1282 he remitted
and quitclaimed to Devorguille of Gallloway, wife of John de Balliol,
his right in the manor of Borgue in Galloway. In 1296 an assize came
to recognize whether Robert de Champaine, John de Champaine, and
others disseised Robert Skeffington of his free tenements in Wigston,
Leicestershire; the jury found in favor of Robert de Champaine. In
1301 he sued Thomas Skeffington regarding 11 messuages, 5 virgates of
land, and 2s. of rent in Collingtree, Northamptonshire. His wife,
Ada, died sometime before 1308–1309. In 1313 Robert settled the
manors of Thurleston, Leicestershire and Great Doddington,
Northamptonshire on himself for life, with reversion to his son and
heir, Robert de Champaine the younger, and his wife, Margaret. He
married (3rd) MAUD _____. ROBERT DE CHAMPAINE died shortly before 27
May 1315, when his widow, Maud, acknowledged that she owed a debt of
£20 to Richer de Refham, to be levied, in default of payment, of her
lands and chattels in Essex. His widow, Maud, married (2nd) before
Hilary term 1320 (date of lawsuit) RICHARD TABOURER, of Albrighton.
In Hilary term 1320 Robert son of Robert de Champaine sued Richard and
his wife, Maud, and Margaret daughter of the said Maud in a plea of a
messuage, five acres of land, one acre of meadow, and 57s. rent in
Wigston, Leicestershire, which he claimed as his right. In Hilary
term 1322 Richard and his wife, Maud, sued Robert de Champaine and his
wife, Margaret, in a plea of a third part of the manor of Thurleston,
together with the advowson of the church of the said manor, and £10
rent in Wigston, Leicestershire, which they demanded as dower of the
said Maud.

References:

Dugdale, Baronage of England 1 (1675): 574–579 (sub Hastings).
Brydges, Collins’ Peerage of England 6 (1812): 643–645 (sub Lord
Hastings). Williams ab Ithel, Annales Cambriæ (Rolls Ser.) (1860):
109–110. Cambrian Journal 6 (1863): 185. Arch. Journal 26 (1869):
236–256. Bridgeman, Hist. of the Princes of South Wales (1876): 185–
202. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563–4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 154–156
(Hastings pedigree: “Alda [de Hastings] wyff fyrst to John ap Meredyth
& after to Robert de Champayne, Knight.”). Annual Report of the
Deputy Keeper 50 (1889): 71. Papal Regs.: Letters 1 (1893): 470.
C.Ch.R. 2 (1898): 253, 303. Morris, Welsh Wars of Edward I (1901):
205, 214. C.C.R. 1279–1288 (1902): 189. Hulme, Hist. of Thurlaston,
Leicestershire (1904): 25–26, 103 (Champayne pedigree). Farnham,
Leicestershire Medieval Peds. (1925): foll. 126 (Champaine pedigree),
127–128. VCH Northampton 4 (1937): 113–116 (Champayne arms: Argent
three bars wavy gules). Powicke, Thirteenth Century, 1216–1307
(1953): 410, 438–440. Ralph A. Griffiths “The Revolt of Rhys ap
Maredudd, 1287–88” in Welsh Hist. Rev. 3 (1966): 121–143. Rees, Cal.
of Ancient Petitions Rel. Wales (Board of Celtic Studies, Hist. & Law
28) (1975): 72, 512, 524. Walker, Medieval Wales (1990): 152–154
(Rhys ap Maredudd: “He was, beyond question, the leading figure in
the dynasty of Deheubarth; his gains were small and local, but he was
building up a compact lordship.”). National Archives, E 42/207
(abstract of document available online at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
p***@gmail.com
2014-09-15 16:02:12 UTC
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Ada de Hastings aka Ada de Huntingdon

The error in Richardsons's conclusions are based in his assumption that land transfers to her husband happened at a time when Henry III was breaking his own treaties with her father, which explicitly specified that none of his children would ever be subjects to the English courts, and Richardson accepting English documents as indisputable, at a time when much was in dispute, and England would be at war with Scotland. Henry had a real problem there as his plan all along was to take their lands and titles and eliminate all possible heirs or threats to his claims to the throne of Scotland. Richardson has no post mortem, no burial, other than the one at St. Mary's Astbury, which supports the Brereton Marriage and lineage. No English King ever disputed the Breretons use of the arms of John le Scot, which were plastered all over St. Mary's, the Brereton Chapel, the Brereton estate and ACKNOWLEDGED by the the English heralds visitations, whose specific job it was to investigate genealogies and claims to coats of arms. Archaeological digs at St. Mary's will most probably answer many questions, as it is a schedule 1 ancient monument, the most important in Britain. As for Richardson, many scholars and genealogy sites including MedLands and Welsh genealogies, support this marriage, and disagree with him. Richardson seems to think that English documents never lied about a Scotsman or woman. William Wallace was not an English subject, but he was tried in English courts illegally.
Cherryexile
2014-09-17 12:32:51 UTC
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It is sometime since I looked at this, but I think I should point out that the tomb at Astbury probably doesn't offer much evidence of anything. It was originally inside the church and was moved into the graveyard several centuries later. Importantly, the inscription was added at this time and is not contemporary to the monument itself. There is also archival evidence (I haven't seen it) that refers to the 'New' inscription. Having visited the monument it is pretty obvious that the context and construction and differential weathering are not consistent. There was, at the time, a disagreement between (I think) the incumbent Vicar and the local Vernon family about descent from Ada Huntingdon and the Vicar had the monument put up to support his claim. There is no reason that he wouldn't have sanctioned the installation of arms supporting his claim in the church either. I should also point out that that Erdeswick mentions both Brereton and Handesacre as being subsequent husbands of Ada and it is notable that there is a Brereton a few miles away from Handsacre (south of Stafford, Staffordshire) and that even if there was an Ada married to a Ralph Brereton, it may have been entirely different individuals than those being talked about here. Even the book 'Breretons of Cheshire' questions the attribution - http://www.archive.org/stream/breretonsofchesh00brer#page/12/mode/2up

Neil
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 23:07:42 UTC
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Post by Cherryexile
It is sometime since I looked at this, but I think I should point out that the tomb at Astbury probably doesn't offer much evidence of anything. It was originally inside the church and was moved into the graveyard several centuries later. Importantly, the inscription was added at this time and is not contemporary to the monument itself. There is also archival evidence (I haven't seen it) that refers to the 'New' inscription. Having visited the monument it is pretty obvious that the context and construction and differential weathering are not consistent. There was, at the time, a disagreement between (I think) the incumbent Vicar and the local Vernon family about descent from Ada Huntingdon and the Vicar had the monument put up to support his claim. There is no reason that he wouldn't have sanctioned the installation of arms supporting his claim in the church either. I should also point out that that Erdeswick mentions both Brereton and Handesacre as being subsequent husbands of Ada and it is notable that there is a Brereton a few miles away from Handsacre (south of Stafford, Staffordshire) and that even if there was an Ada married to a Ralph Brereton, it may have been entirely different individuals than those being talked about here. Even the book 'Breretons of Cheshire' questions the attribution - http://www.archive.org/stream/breretonsofchesh00brer#page/12/mode/2up
Neil
p***@gmail.com
2018-05-14 23:09:08 UTC
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Post by Cherryexile
It is sometime since I looked at this, but I think I should point out that the tomb at Astbury probably doesn't offer much evidence of anything. It was originally inside the church and was moved into the graveyard several centuries later. Importantly, the inscription was added at this time and is not contemporary to the monument itself. There is also archival evidence (I haven't seen it) that refers to the 'New' inscription. Having visited the monument it is pretty obvious that the context and construction and differential weathering are not consistent. There was, at the time, a disagreement between (I think) the incumbent Vicar and the local Vernon family about descent from Ada Huntingdon and the Vicar had the monument put up to support his claim. There is no reason that he wouldn't have sanctioned the installation of arms supporting his claim in the church either. I should also point out that that Erdeswick mentions both Brereton and Handesacre as being subsequent husbands of Ada and it is notable that there is a Brereton a few miles away from Handsacre (south of Stafford, Staffordshire) and that even if there was an Ada married to a Ralph Brereton, it may have been entirely different individuals than those being talked about here. Even the book 'Breretons of Cheshire' questions the attribution - http://www.archive.org/stream/breretonsofchesh00brer#page/12/mode/2up
Neil
It seems entirely logical to me that when you move an important tomb from its original location in the church that you would identify it with a new inscription. So that does not seem inconsistent with the identification of this tomb.
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