Discussion:
Was Frances Barker, wife of Gov. William Shirley of Mass., a descendant of Sancha de Ayala?
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r***@yahoo.com
2018-07-11 17:27:38 UTC
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My past postings here on the ancestry of Gov. Shirley's wife, Frances Barker, is available here:

http://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/nkPsgnws/possible-line-from-sir-walter-raleigh-s-sister-to-frances-barker-d-1746-wife-of-gov-william-shirley-

This showed that the four generations of Frances' immediate ancestry were probably:

Cavendish Sanderson, m. _______
Elizabeth Sanderson, m. William Gomeldon
Elizabeth Gomeldon, m. Francis Barker (d. 1710)
Frances Barker

It now looks like she might have some interesting lines through a Sanderson ancestress, Mary Ludlow, wife of (1) Giovanni da Ponte; (2) Sir Lewis Orrell; (3) Thomas Parker. The mother of Cavendish Sandersion was a niece of the half-blood of Sir Walter Raleigh the explorer. She and her husband William Saunderson named their sons after Raleigh and other explorers: Raleigh Saunderson, Carew Saunderson, and Cavendish Saunderson.

Margaret Snedall/ Snedale, mother of Cavendish and wife of William Saunderson, was the daughter of the half-sister of the famous Sir Walter Raleigh (Mary Raleigh, wife of Hugh Snedale).

https://books.google.com/books?id=9--2AAAAIAAJ&q=%22margaret+snedall%22&dq=%22margaret+snedall%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLgsGshJPcAhUSn-AKHT-KDzoQ6AEITjAH

https://books.google.com/books?id=pdw5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA289&dq=%22at+st+mary+arches+to+hugh%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSlpX3kJPcAhXK61MKHVuUCBkQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=%22at%20st%20mary%20arches%20to%20hugh%22&f=false

For many years, everyone thought Mary (Raleigh) Snedale's mother was a Darrell/ Dorrell, but in 1981, an article seems to have established that Mary's mother, the second wife of Walter Rawley/ Raleigh the elder, was Elizabeth da Ponte, daughter of Giovanni da Ponte of London, by his "English wife." This English wife, mother-in-law of the first Walter Raleigh, after the death of da Ponte, "then remarried first Sir Lewis Orrell and then a London merchant named Parker, and was living in St. Helens Bishopgate."

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22walter+rawley+married+about%22+%22sir+lewis%22

https://books.google.com/books?id=d1VJAAAAMAAJ&q=%22walter+rawley+married+about%22+%22sir+lewis%22&dq=%22walter+rawley+married+about%22+%22sir+lewis%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijsrGhkpPcAhXRvVMKHV8LClsQ6AEIKTAA

I suppose "Darrell/ Dorrell" was a mistake from her step-father being Sir Lewis Orrell.

Some background on the Saundersons:

https://books.google.com/books?id=BAoVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR13&dq=%22william+sanderson%22+cavendish&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHzrWKg5PcAhXDnOAKHVc5C1oQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=%22william%20sanderson%22%20cavendish&f=false

Statement that Giovanni da Ponte's widow was an "English" woman:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&ei=qOxDW7nnJdDbzwKru7X4DA&q=%22married+Mary%2C+English+widow%22&oq=%22married+Mary%2C+English+widow%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...17838.19100.0.19370.2.2.0.0.0.0.54.98.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.NcDpWdWIOvY

Lady Orrell, widow of Sir Lewis Orrell, and her last husband (Parker):

https://books.google.com/books?id=CXBGAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&dq=%22lady+orell+the+widow%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit2rjgk5PcAhWK61MKHSW7D8MQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22lady%20orell%20the%20widow%22&f=false

Interestingly the Shropshire Visitation shows an Elizabeth (? sic) Ludlow, daughter of Maurice Ludlow, who married (1) ... "Pount of London"; (2) Sir Lewis Orrell; (3) unknown husband (apparently Parker).

https://books.google.com/books?id=HC8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA341&dq=%22moris+ludlow%22+stoaks+orrell&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEn9aIlJPcAhWKyVMKHb2BA5kQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=%22moris%20ludlow%22%20stoaks%20orrell&f=false

This is a very similar pattern to the names and sequence of husbands of the Lady Orrell who was supposed to be mother to Walter Raleigh's second wife, Elizabeth da Ponte.

The same lady, under Christian name of Mary, but shown as daughter of Maurice Ludlow, and assigned marriages to Pount, Orrell, & Parker, in that precise order, is shown in genealogics.org as a descendant of Sancha de Ayala:

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00689738&tree=LEO

Does anybody have thoughts on the validity of this whole descent (Sancha de Ayala to Frances Barker Shirley)?
__________

I noticed that a "Candidge Saunderson" had a son William baptized at St. Vedast, London, in 1619:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081829446;view=1up;seq=59

Cavendish Saunderson was apparently still living in 1621:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bIhAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA322&dq=%22cavendish+sanderson%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVlY_klZPcAhVI0FMKHUfjCwUQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22cavendish%20sanderson%22&f=false

The source below adds the following details on Cavendish and daughter Elizabeth: "Elizabeth Sanders (or Sanderson or Saunderson) was the daughter of Cavendish and Elizabeth Saunderson. She was baptised 28 Mar 1621 at St Bartholomew the Less, Middlesex. Her parents' marriage: Candishe Sandersole, gent married Elizabeth Whethers maiden 18 Jan 1616 at St Bride Fleet Street."

http://martleweb.co.uk/gumbleton/people/H0002a.html
r***@yahoo.com
2018-07-11 18:12:39 UTC
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As early as 1919, one source had indicated "Elizabeth de Ponte" as a consort of the elder Walter Raleigh.

https://books.google.com/books?id=84iJ59R4CMwC&pg=PA186&dq=%22elizabeth+de+ponte%22+consort&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8h5en0pfcAhUS0FMKHTdJA2kQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=%22elizabeth%20de%20ponte%22%20consort&f=false
r***@yahoo.com
2018-07-12 19:08:33 UTC
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For "Carew Saunderson," read "Drake Saunderson."

William Saunderson/Sanderson, husband of Margaret Snedale, is covered in the new _ODNB_ under the spelling "Sanderson," as is his son Sir William Sanderson.

_Reports From the Lost Notebooks of Sir James Dyer_ (Selden Soc., vol. 109), has information about Lord Grey's reputed mistress, "Jane Orwell, daughter unto Sir Lewis Orwell, Knt, whereas the truth was that at that time she was called Jane Kemp and was the daughter of one Pount, born a foreigner, but her mother was afterward married to Sir Lewis Orwell ..."

https://books.google.com/books?id=1q-JAAAAMAAJ&q=%22jane+kemp%22+orwell&dq=%22jane+kemp%22+orwell&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVipWFnprcAhVJMd8KHV1ODIQQ6AEIMjAC

This Jane would apparently be a full sister of the second wife of Walter Raleigh, Sr., and I think Leo's website traces her descendants.

Jan Wolfe mentions that Cavendish Saunderson's wife was Elizabeth Withers (b. 1590, m. 1615), daughter of Anthony Withers of St. Lawrence Jewry, per Boyd's _Inhabitants of London_.

It seems likely that Mary Ludlow's first husband was called Giacomo, not Giovanni.

Maurice Ludlow is assigned different parents in the pedigree below, which would have resulted in an Edward III or Henry IV descent for him ... but apparently this is incorrect.

https://books.google.com/books?id=HC8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA342&dq=%22de+ludlow+had+grant+of+free+warren+in+stoke%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiD-YnqlJPcAhXRoFMKHXJuCAQQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22de%20ludlow%20had%20grant%20of%20free%20warren%20in%20stoke%22&f=false
John Higgins
2018-07-12 19:33:22 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
For "Carew Saunderson," read "Drake Saunderson."
William Saunderson/Sanderson, husband of Margaret Snedale, is covered in the new _ODNB_ under the spelling "Sanderson," as is his son Sir William Sanderson.
_Reports From the Lost Notebooks of Sir James Dyer_ (Selden Soc., vol. 109), has information about Lord Grey's reputed mistress, "Jane Orwell, daughter unto Sir Lewis Orwell, Knt, whereas the truth was that at that time she was called Jane Kemp and was the daughter of one Pount, born a foreigner, but her mother was afterward married to Sir Lewis Orwell ..."
https://books.google.com/books?id=1q-JAAAAMAAJ&q=%22jane+kemp%22+orwell&dq=%22jane+kemp%22+orwell&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVipWFnprcAhVJMd8KHV1ODIQQ6AEIMjAC
This Jane would apparently be a full sister of the second wife of Walter Raleigh, Sr., and I think Leo's website traces her descendants.
Jan Wolfe mentions that Cavendish Saunderson's wife was Elizabeth Withers (b. 1590, m. 1615), daughter of Anthony Withers of St. Lawrence Jewry, per Boyd's _Inhabitants of London_.
It seems likely that Mary Ludlow's first husband was called Giacomo, not Giovanni.
Maurice Ludlow is assigned different parents in the pedigree below, which would have resulted in an Edward III or Henry IV descent for him ... but apparently this is incorrect.
https://books.google.com/books?id=HC8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA342&dq=%22de+ludlow+had+grant+of+free+warren+in+stoke%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiD-YnqlJPcAhXRoFMKHXJuCAQQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22de%20ludlow%20had%20grant%20of%20free%20warren%20in%20stoke%22&f=false
Mary Ludlow, through her daughter Jane Pount, is ancestral to the current Dukes of Cambridge and Sussex. The descent can be traced in the Genealogics database.
r***@yahoo.com
2018-07-12 20:14:44 UTC
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Jan also pointed out this marriage license:

Sanderson, Candishe, of Inner Temple, gent., bachelor, 26, and Elizabeth Withers, of St. Anne Blackfriars, maiden, 19, daughter of Anthony Withers, of same, gent., who consents -- at St. Bride, London. 18 Jan. 1615/6. B.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Xf8cAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1187&dq=%22candishe+of+inner%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70rOYr5rcAhWLdd8KHdI0AewQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=%22candishe%20of%20inner%22&f=false
Jan Wolfe
2018-07-14 04:50:25 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Sanderson, Candishe, of Inner Temple, gent., bachelor, 26, and Elizabeth Withers, of St. Anne Blackfriars, maiden, 19, daughter of Anthony Withers, of same, gent., who consents -- at St. Bride, London. 18 Jan. 1615/6. B.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Xf8cAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1187&dq=%22candishe+of+inner%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70rOYr5rcAhWLdd8KHdI0AewQ6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&q=%22candishe%20of%20inner%22&f=false
They were married at St Bride Fleet street on 18 Jan 1615/16 "Candishe Sandersole gen' & Elizabeth Wethers mayd by lycence" https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101423-00035. (London Metropolitan Archives,Church of England Parish Registers, 1538-1812, Reference Number: P69/BRI/A/002/MS06537).

Anthony Withers and Mary Collome were married on 22 May 1590 at St Lawrence Jewry (Reference Number: P69/LAW1/A/002/MS06975 and Reference Number: P69/LAW1/A/001/MS06974), https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101682-00045/7113146 and https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101684-00046/7118122 (two copies).

Anthony Withers was baptized at St Lawrence Jewry on 29 August 1569, https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101682-00025/7109961 and https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101684-00026/7117768 (same two parish books as above). Names of parents not stated.

A "Mr. John Withers and Mrs. Amye his wife" were married on 23 November 1559 in Glaston, Rutland (Record Office for Leicestershire, Leicester & Rutland, DE2575/1), https://search.findmypast.com/record?id=S2/GBPRS/LEICS/102302746/00015&parentid=GBPRS/LEICS/MAR/00264367/1 (no surname given for Amye, nor for other brides on this page).

"Ame wife of John Withers" was buried on 23 May 1586 in St Lawrence Jewry, https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101682-00022/7109808. The other copy of the register states "Anne wife of Jno Withers"
(https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101684-00023/7116731). The next person buried was also named Anne. The names are clearly different in the first copy of the register.

"John Withers and Elizabeth Cullome of this Parish" were married on 27 February 1586/87 at St Lawrence Jewry, https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101682-00041/7102774 (spelled Collome in the margin). The wife named in the PCC will of John Withers is Elizabeth, https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_311348-00244/957059 (Salter of London, 18 June 1592, proved 1 July 1592). John Withers was buried 27 June 1592 at St Lawrence Jewry, https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1624/31281_a101682-00025/7109888.

Perhaps Mary Collome was the daughter of John Withers' second wife Elizabeth Collome?

John's will mentions two brothers with surname Withers (Leonarde and Gregorie) and three brothers with other surnames (Hunteley, Churchman, and Hulson). He bequeaths to his wife Elizabeth (1/3), sons Anthonie and John Withers (1/3) (John underage, Anthonie already having part of his legacy), and to daughter Amie/Amy Parker and her husband Nicholas Parker and Amie's daughter Elizabeth Parker plus others (charities, friend, servant).
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