Discussion:
Royal Descent for Swynfens of Sutton Cheney, Leicestershire
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Robert O'Connor
2017-11-19 07:11:47 UTC
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I have developed a potential royal descent from Henry I, King of England for the Swynfen family of Sutton Cheney, Leicestershire. The Swynfens appear in the Visitation of Leicestershire of 1619.

I acknowledge that the line is tenuous as it relies on:

1) It being accepted that Alice de Braose (wife of Ralph St Owen) was the daughter of Sir Peter de Braose of Tetbury (d 1312). In a recent discussion, some in this Newsgroup accepted this connection, but others did not.

2.The Cotes pedigree in Nichols’ ‘History of Leicestershire’ IV at p 35, and the link to the Cotes family of Woodcote, being correct.

For the interest of those on this list focused on American gateway lines, I have carried the line down to Francis Swynfen of Maryland (d 1686)

For what it is worth, the line is thus:

HENRY I, KING of ENGLAND, He had illegitimate issue:
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ROBERT de CAEN, 1st EARL of GLOUCESTER, Born c. 1090. He fought at the Battle of Bremule where Henry I defeated Louis VI, King of France. In 1126 he had custody of his uncle Robert, Duke of Normandy as a prisoner at Bristol. He sided with Mathilda against King Stephen & became her commander-in-chief. He took King Stephen prisoner but was captured later himself. He was exchanged for Stephen. According to his article in the ‘Oxford Dictionary of National Biography’ – “Robert of Gloucester was one of the great aristocrats of his age. Between 1121 & his death he was rarely rivalled in England for power, wealth, & political influence. He was a consummate creature of the royal court, a great man of business, affable, & courtly”. M Mabel (Died 29 Sept. 1157), d. of Robert Fitz Hamon, of Tewkesbury, Co. Glouc. & his wife Sybil of Montgomery. Died 31 Oct. 1147 at Brest. He had issue:
(Refs: CP XI App D, p 106; Weis, pp 66 & 112; TAG 73:4, p 308; RA II, p 124)
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WILLIAM, 2nd EARL of GLOUCESTER, M Hawise, d. of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester, & his wife Amice de Gael. In 1153 he witnessed the agreement between King Stephen & Prince Henry (later Henry II) ending the civil war. In 1173 he took Henry II’s side in the rebellion of his sons, but in 1183, during the struggle between the King & his sons, he was imprisoned by King Henry II as one of the nobles the King distrusted. Died 23 Nov. 1183. He had issue:
(Refs: Weis, pp 66 & 112; Leese, p 26; RD500, p 387)
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AMICE OF GLOUCESTER, M RICHARD de CLARE, 2nd EARL of HERTFORD (Died 1217). Died 1 Jan. 1224/5. She had issue:
(Refs: Weis, p 67; Leese, p 26)
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MAUD DE CLARE, M before 1198 WILLIAM de BRAOSE, Lord of Bramber & Gower (He witnessed charters for his father to the Hospital of St John the Baptist in Dublin, Ireland, c. 1208. In about 1209 he & his father granted five knights’ fees to William FitzWilliam, Baron of Naas. He was implicated in his father’s rebellion & by order of King John he & his mother were starved to death in the dungeons of Windsor Castle in 1210. Died 1210). She escaped when her hubsband was captured in 1210, but was later imprisoned in Corfe Castle. On 28 July 1213 she was restored to her father. In 1217 she had letters of conduct to come to England. In 1219 she sued her brother-in-law Reginald de Braose for dower in the manors of Shoreham, Bramber, Beeding, Steyning, Findon, Knepp, Horsham, Warnham & Washington, Sussex. She was recorded as living on 10 July 1220. She had issue:
(Refs: RA I, pp 527-8; Weis, p 67; MCS II, p 37; Sanders, p 105)
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JOHN de BRAOSE, Lord of Bramber & Gower., Born 1197. He was released from captivity with his brothers due to the influence of his maternal uncle Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford, Jan. 1218. He promptly initiating legal proceedings in the King’s courts against his paternal uncle Reginald de Braose claiming by hereditary right the castle & lordship of Bramber, Sussex & various other lordships. He was recorded as “aged 22”, 1219. M 1219 Margaret (M 2nd before 2 Nov. 1234 Sir Walter Clifford, Kt. She was recorded as living in 1268), illegitimate d. of Llewelyn the Great, Prince of Wales. Sometime before the end of 1220, he was probably placed in possession of the lordship of Gower. Also in 1220 he recovered the estates of his grandfather from his paternal uncle Reginald de Braose, including the barony of Bramber, Sussex, half the barony of Totnes, Devon, & the manor of Tetbury, Gloucestersshire, but the family’s Welsh lands remained with Reginald. He fought in France, 1230. He was forced to sue his uncle, Reginald, to recover his inheritance. Died shortly before 16 July 1232 – killed as the result of a fall from a horse near Bramber, Sussex. He had issue:
(Refs: RA I, pp 530-1; Weis, p 31; CP II, p 302; MCA, p 135; Sanders, p 90)
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WILLIAM, 1st BARON BRAOSE, He was of age by 15 July 1245. Summoned to Parliament as a Baron, 1290. M 1st Aline, d. of Thomas de Multon, Lord of Burgh-on-Sands, Cumberland, & his wife Maud, d. of Hubert de Vaux, of Gillesland. M 2nd Agnes, d. of Nicholas de Moels, of North Cadbury, Somerset. M 3rd c. 1271 Mary (It is recorded by Rees in his 'Calendar of Ancient Petitions Relating to Wales: Thirteenth to Sixteenth Century' – as follows - “[327] E/840. 1316. Mary, widow of William de Brewose, To the King & Council: She seeks remedy from Thomas de la Roche for what Thomas has taken (alloigne) from John, son & heir of Ralph (Rauf) de St. Owayn, being under age, which Rauf holds from Mary the manor of Clopham (Clapham) in the county of Sussex by the homage & service of a knight. Thomas had neither lands nor tenements in England for which he could be a mesne tenant to [answer for] the manor & County of Kermerdyn (Carmarthen) in Wales where the writ of the King does not run. Wherefore she prays remedy”. Died before 23 May 1326), d. of Sir Robert de Ros, Kt., of Helmsley, & his wife Isabel d’Aubigny. Died before 6 Jan. 1290/1. He had issue by his 3rd wife:
(Refs: CP II, pp 302 & 308, & XIV, p 110; MCS II, p 159; RD500, p 334; RD600, p 422; Rees, p 524)
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SIR PETER DE BRAOSE, Kt., of Tetbury, Co. Glouc. (1), Born c. 1272. He succeeded his elder brother Richard in 1295, being then aged 23, & had livery of his brother’s lands, 17 March 1295/6. M 1300 Agnes (M 1st Henry Hussey, of Harting, Sussex, who died 1289. She was recorded as living in 1324 & as recently dead in 1333), sister of Robert, 1st Baron Clifford, & d. of Roger de Clifford, Lord of Tenbury, Co. Worc. Died shortly before 7 Feb. 1311/2. I.P.M. – “1312. Peter de Brewosa. Found that he held the manor of Tettebury [sic] by one knight’s fee of [Peter’s elder half brother] William de Brewose & that he had assigned it to Agnes his wife in exchange for manors in Wiltshire & Sussex which [his mother] Mary de Brewose holds for life”. He had issue:
(Refs: CIPM, V, p 182 (item 321); RA V, pp 142-3; CP II, p 308; MCA, p 814; NEHGR 150, p 318; RD600, p 422; VCH Glouc, XI, pp 264-5)
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ALICE DE BRAOSE, Born c. 1300. M before 1316 RALPH ST OWEN, of Burton Court, Co. Hereford & Clapham, Sussex (Died c. 1357). It is recorded by Rees in his 'Calendar of Ancient Petitions Relating to Wales: Thirteenth to Sixteenth Century' – as follows - “[327] E/840. 1316. Mary, widow of William de Brewose, To the King & Council: She seeks remedy from Thomas de la Roche for what Thomas has taken (alloigne) from John, son & heir of Ralph (Rauf) de St. Owayn, being under age, which Rauf holds from Mary the manor of Clopham (Clapham) in the county of Sussex by the homage & service of a knight. Thomas had neither lands nor tenements in England for which he could be a mesne tenant to [answer for] the manor & County of Kermerdyn (Carmarthen) in Wales where the writ of the King does not run. Wherefore she prays remedy”. It was recorded in the ‘Calendar of Close Rolls’ as follows – “1361. Feb. 16. Westminster. Order to deliver in dower to Philippa who was the wife of Roger de Mortuo Mari Eerl of March…namely two thirds of on knight’s fee in Borton, Berthynghop & Wymaston now held by Alice de Sancto Audoeno [Alice St Owen] (extended at 66s 8d), one third of one knight’s fee in Berchynghope & Wymaston held by John de Sancto Audoeno (at 33s 4d)”. In the ‘Calendar of Patent Rolls’ it was recorded as follows – “1362. May 12. Westminster. Pardon to Alesia [sic] late the wife of Ralph de Seint Oweyn of her waiver in the husting of London for non-appearance before the justices of the Bench to answer Simon de Reynham, citizen & mercer of London, touching a plea of debt of 73s 4d she now having surrendered to the Flete prison, as is found in the certificate of Robert de Thorpe, chief justice”. Died after 1362. She had issue:
(Refs: CCR, XXXIV, p 158; CPR, XXVII, p 189; Rees, p 524; Davis 2, p 24; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; HSP Shrops, p 152)
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JOHN ST OWEN, of Burton Court, Co. Hereford & Clapham, Sussex., Born by 1316. It is recorded by Rees in his 'Calendar of Ancient Petitions Relating to Wales: Thirteenth to Sixteenth Century' – as follows - “[327] E/840. 1316. Mary, widow of William de Brewose, To the King & Council: She seeks remedy from Thomas de la Roche for what Thomas has taken (alloigne) from John, son & heir of Ralph (Rauf) de St. Owayn, being under age, which Rauf holds from Mary the manor of Clopham (Clapham) in the county of Sussex by the homage & service of a knight. Thomas had neither lands nor tenements in England for which he could be a mesne tenant to [answer for] the manor & County of Kermerdyn (Carmarthen) in Wales where the writ of the King does not run. Wherefore she prays remedy”. In the ‘Calendar of Close Rolls’ it was recorded as follows – “1357. July 6. Westminster. John Seyntowayn acknowledges that he owes [his putative maternal uncle] Thomas de Breouse, knight, £300, to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands & chattels in Sussex”. M -- . Died 15 Oct. 1362 – as recorded in his I.P.M. I.P.M., 18 Oct. 1371 – in which it was recorded as follows – "238. John Seynt Oweyn. Writ of precipimus touching the lands &c. held by the said John of the heir of Roger de Mortuo Mari, late earl of March, a minor in the king's wardship. 18 October, 44 Edward III. Hereford. Inq. (indented) taken at Hereford, 31 March, 45 Edward III. Gerneston in the fee of Webbeleye. A messuage, 60a. land, 2a. meadow & 6a. wood, held of the said heir by knight's service. He held no other lands &c. in the county. He died on 15 October, 35 Edward III. John Seynt Oweyn, his son, aged 23 years on 8 September last is his heir”. He had issue:
(Refs: CIPM, VIII, pp 219-220 (no 238);CCR, XXXIII, p 313;HSP Shrops, p 152;HSP Hereford 1569, p 94;MGH, 4th Series, Vol V, p 290;Rees, p 524)
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JOHN ST OWEN, of Burton Court, Co. Hereford & Clapham, Sussex., Born 1347 – as recorded in his father’s I.P.M. He was mentioned in his father’s I.P.M., as follows – “John Seynt Oweyn, his son, aged 23 years on 8 September last is his heir”, 18 Oct. 1371. M Jane, d. & heiress of Sir Hugh Tyrell, Kt., of Bromscroste, Co. Salop & Tirrell’s Court, Co. Hereford. Died shortly before 5 May 1385. He had issue:
(Refs: Father’s IPM, 1371; CIPM, VIII, pp 219-220; HSP Shrops, p 152; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94)
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JOAN ST OWEN, M ROGER DOWNTON, of Downton, Co. Hereford. Died 20 May 1403 – as recorded in her I.P.M. I.P.M. dated 16 July 1406 – in which it was recorded as follows - “Joan wife of Roger Dounton, rightly called Joan wife of Thomas Dounton, sister & heir of Thomas Seyntoweyn, brother & heir of John Seyntoweyn, held: In the Welsh March: the manor of Burlingjobb & Walton, the manor of Womaston, & two parts of 57 s. rent in Presteigne with the reversion of the third part which Richard Lyngayn & Isabel his wife, formerly the wife of John Seyntoweyn, now hold in the dower of Isabel…She died on 20 May 1403. Thomas her son & heir is aged 7 years”. In the ‘Calendar of Close Rolls’ it was recorded as follows – “remove the King’s hand…the manor of Berteleynghope & Walton & the manor of Wymaston…57s of rent in Presthemde…two thirds of a toft, 50 acres of land, 2 acres of meadow, 6 acres of wood & 5s of rent in Gerneston…Joan was wife of Roger Dounton deceased, other incorrectly called Joan who was wife of Thomas Dounton, at her death held the same & the reversion of a third part…held in dower by Richard Lyngayn & Isabel his wife sometime wife of John Seyntoweyn, as sister & heir of line of Thomas Seyntoweyn brother & & heir of the said John…& that Patrick Seynt Oweyn has taken the issues of profits thereof since the day of her death…the matter understood…the seizures of the premises was improper, wherefore it was determined that the King’s hane be removed”, 1408. In the ‘Calendar of Fine Rolls’ it was recorded as follows –“1410. March 20. Westminster. Commitment to Nicholas Merbury & John Merbery, esquires by mainprise of Thomas Holgotm, esquire, & Edmund Morys – of the keeping of the manor of Clopham, co. Sussex, which came to the King’s hands by the death of Thomas Seyntowayn, who held of Thomas late earl marshall in chief, & which is still in the King’s hand by reason of the minority of John, brother & heir of the said earl, the King’s ward, & of Thomas Dounton, son of Joan the sister of the said Thomas Seyntowayn & his kinsman & next heir; to hold the same until the lawful age of the said Thomas Dounton, & from heir to heir until one of them shall have attained full age…” She had issue:
(Refs: CIPM, XVIII, pp 218-9 (nos 660-1)Cal CR, Vol 46, pp 310-1; Cal FR, Vol 13, pp 177-8; HSP Shrops, pp 82 & 152; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; MGH, 4th Series, Vol V, p 290)
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THOMAS DOWNTON, of Downton, Co. Hereford., Born 1398/9. In his mother’s I.P.M. dated 16 July 1406 it was recorded as follows - “Joan wife of Roger Dounton, rightly called Joan wife of Thomas Dounton, sister & heir of Thomas Seyntoweyn, brother & heir of John Seyntoweyn, held: In the Welsh March: the manor of Burlingjobb & Walton, the manor of Womaston, & two parts of 57 s. rent in Presteigne with the reversion of the third part which Richard Lyngayn & Isabel his wife, formerly the wife of John Seyntoweyn, now hold in the dower of Isabel…She died on 20 May 1403. Thomas her son & heir is aged 7 years”. In the ‘Calendar of Close Rolls’ it was recorded as follows – “remove the King’s hand…the manor of Berteleynghope & Walton & the manor of Wymaston…57s of rent in Presthemde…two thirds of a toft, 50 acres of land, 2 acres of meadow, 6 acres of wood & 5s of rent in Gerneston…Joan was wife of Roger Dounton deceased, other incorrectly called Joan who was wife of Thomas Dounton, at her death held the same & the reversion of a third part…held in dower by Richard Lyngayn & Isabel his wife sometime wife of John Seyntoweyn, as sister & heir of line of Thomas Seyntoweyn brother & & heir of the said John…& that Patrick Seynt Oweyn has taken the issues of profits thereof since the day of her death…the matter understood…the seizures of the premises was improper, wherefore it was determined that the King’s hane be removed”, 1408. In the ‘Calendar of Fine Rolls’ it was recorded as follows –“1410. March 20. Westminster. Commitment to Nicholas Merbury & John Merbery, esquires by mainprise of Thomas Holgotm, esquire, & Edmund Morys – of the keeping of the manor of Clopham, co. Sussex, which came to the King’s hands by the death of Thomas Seyntowayn, who held of Thomas late earl marshall in chief, & which is still in the King’s hand by reason of the minority of John, brother & heir of the said earl, the King’s ward, & of Thomas Dounton, son of Joan the sister of the said Thomas Seyntowayn & his kinsman & next heir; to hold the same until the lawful age of the said Thomas Dounton, & from heir to heir until one of them shall have attained full age…” In the ‘Calendar of Close Rolls’ it was recorded as follows – “1423. Dec. 14. Westminister…give Thomas Dounton seisen of the manor of Clopham; as…by the death of John Seyntowayn…&…the nonage of Thomas Seyntowayn his son & heir…& that Patirck Seyntowayn, uncle of John father of Thomas, was his next heir & of full age; & by another inquisition…the said Patrick was not next heir of Thomas Seyntowayn, but Joan sister of the said Thomas was his next heir, & that Thomas Dounton her son & heir was then next heir, & he has proved his age” & “1423. Dec. 14. Westminister…give Thomas Dounton seisen of the manors…that Joan who was wife of Roger Dounton, otherwise incorrectly called wife of Thomas Dounton, as sister & heir of Thomas Seyntowayn brother & heir of John Seyntowayn, at her death held…Bertleynghope & Walton…Wymaston…rent in Presthemde & the reversion of one third thereof then held by Richard Lyngayn & Isabel his wife, sometime wife of John Seyntowatn, as dower of Isabel, two thirds of the manor of Bortin & the reversion of one third…rent of Gerneston…& that Thomas Dounton son of the said Joan is her next heir; & by another inquisition Robert de Sancto Audoeno was seised of the manor of Borton, & gave the same to Ralph de Sancto Audoeno & Alice his wife & to their heirs of Ralph’s body, that they had issue John Seyntoweyn , who had issue John, who had issue John, Thomas & Joan, that John son of John son of John had issue Isabel & died seised thereof, that Isabel as his daughter & heir entered two thirds thereof & the reversion of one third held in dower by Isabel above mentioned, that Isabel the daughter died without issue, that after her death Thomas as her uncle & heir entered those two thirds by the form of the gift, & died seised thereof & of the reversion without issue, that after his death the said Joan likewise entered as sister & heir, & continued her possession to the day of her death, dying thereof seised & of the said reversion, & that at her death she had an estate … to her & her heirs, & died thereof so seised; & Thomas Dounton has proved his age…”. In the ‘Calendar of Patent Rolls’ it was recorded as follows – “1424. May 29. Westminister. Protection with clause volumes for one year to Thomas Dounton, esquire, about to proceed to Ireland in the company of Edmund, Earl of March, the King’s lieutenant of that land”. It was recorded in the ‘Victoria County History of Sussex’ in respect of the Manor of Clapham as follows – “In 1402 Thomas St. Owen, son & heir of John St. Owen, died a minor & was succeeded by his father's uncle Patrick, but 8 years later Patrick was shown not to have been the rightful heir & the manor passed to Thomas Downton, nephew of Thomas St. Owen & then a minor. At his death, before 1456, he was succeeded by his three daughters”. M Margaret, d. of Richard Lingen, of Lingen & Sutton, Co. Hereford & his wife Isabel Holgate. Died before 1456. He had issue:
(Refs: CIPM, XVIII, pp 218-9 (nos 660-1); Cal CR, Vol 46, pp 310-1 & Vol 51, p 84-5; Cal FR, Vol 13, pp 177-8; Cal PR, Vol 44, p 203; HSP Shrops, p 153; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; VCH Sussex, VI, p 11)
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ELIZABETH DOWNTON, M JOHN COTES, of Cotes, in the Parish of Eccleshall, Co. Staffs. & Woodcote, Co. Salop. (Born c. 1423. He was Escheator of Co. Staffs., 1454-5. He was Sheriff of Co. Staffs., 1456/7.) She had issue:
(Refs: HSP Shrops, pp 150 & 15; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; Nichols IV, p 35)
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JOHN COTES, Born c. 1450. In the pedigree of the Cotes family of Aylestone recorded in Nichols’ ‘History of Leicestershire’ he was recorded as “John Cotes, died 1518, second son of John Cotes, co. Stafford & Woodcote, co. Salop”, & his wife was recorded as “Ellen second daughter of Richard Littleton, second son of Judge Littleton”. The identification of his wife as Ellen Littleton as the John Ellen Littleton cannot be correct on chronological grounds as the John Cotes who married Ellen Littleton was in fact the son of Humphrey Cotes (d 1485) & born in 1482 – see above. For chronological reasons, the “John Cotes, co. Stafford & Woodcote, co. Salop” identified by Nichols as his father must have been the John Cotes who married Elizabeth Downton identified in pedigree of the Cotes family recorded in the 1619 ‘Visitation of Leicestershire’. M -- . Died 1518. He had issue:
(Ref: Nichols IV, p 35)
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JOHN COTES, of Prestwood, in the Parish of Ellaston, near Norbury, Co. Staffs., Born c. 1475. In the pedigree of the Cotes family of Aylestone recorded in Nichols’ ‘History of Leicestershire’ he was recorded as “John Cotes of Norbury, co. Stafford, died 1544 [sic]”, as the son of “John Cotes, died 1518, second son of John Cotes, of Cotes, co. Stafford & Woodcote, co. Salop, esq” & “Ellen second daughter of Richard Littleton, second son of Judge Littleton”. The identification by Nichols in his ‘History of Leicestershire’ of his mother as being Ellen Littleton cannot be correct on chronological grounds as the John Cotes who married Ellen Littleton was in fact the son of Humphrey Cotes (d 1485) who was born in 1482 – see above. M Elizabeth (She was mentioned in her husband’s will as “Elizabet [sic] my wyff [sic]”, 27 Nov. 1537). Will dated 27 Nov. 1537 – in which he was described as “John Coots [sic] of Prestwodde [sic] in ye County of Staff” & mentioned “Alexander Coots [sic] my son”, “Roger Byllynge [sic] my son in law”, “Margaret my doghter [sic]”, “Thomas my son”, “Thomas Coots [sic] my brother” & “Elizabet [sic] my wyff [sic]”. Died 1538. Will Proved at the Consistory Court of Lichfield, 5 Feb. 1537/8. He had issue:
(Refs: Will Lichfield; Nichols IV, p 35)
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ALEXANDER COTES, of Withington, in the Parish of Leigh, Co. Staffs., Born c. 1505. In the pedigree of the Cotes family recorded in the ‘Visitation of Leicestershire’ in 1619 he was recorded as “Alexander Cotes de [sic] Withington in Com’ Staff”, but his parentage was not identified. In the pedigree of the Cotes family of Aylestone recorded in Nichols’ ‘History of Leicestershire’ he was recorded as “Alexander Cotes, of Whittington [sic], co. Stafford”, as the son of “John Cotes of Norbury, co. Stafford, died 1544 [sic]” & his wife was recorded as & “Margaret, d. & heir of John Justinian, of Whittington [sic]”. He was mentioned in his father’s will as “Alexander Coots [sic] my son”, 27 Nov. 1537. M Margaret, d. & heiress of John Justinian, of Wittington, Co. Staffs. Died 1570. Admon. Granted at the Consistory Court of Lichfield, 4 March 1569/70 – in which he was described as “Alexander Cottes [sic] of Leigh”. He had issue:
(Refs: Father’s will, 1537; Admon Lichfield; HSP Leic, p 94; Nichols IV, p 35)
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JOHN COTES, of Aylestone, Co. Leic., Born c. 1535. In the pedigree of the Cotes family recorded in the ‘Visitation of Leicestershire’ in 1619 he & his wife were recorded as “Johannes Cotes de [sic] Elson [Aylestone] in Com’ Leic” & “Agneta filia [daughter of] Rob’ti Sterkie de Sutton supra le monte in Com’ Derbiae” & he was recorded as the son of “Alexander Cotes de [sic] Withington in Com’ Staff”. M c. 1560 Agnes (She was mentioned in her husband’s will as “my wife Ann [sic] Cootes [sic]”, 14 Oct. 1603. Recorded as “Agnys [sic] Cotes of Aylestone, co. Leicester, widow, late wife of John Cotes, deceased” in consideration of the sum of £20 & the advancement of here son she entered into a release in favour of “Allexander [sic] Cotes, of Knighton, yeoman, her son” in respect of “all rights & third title of dower that she had to a messuage & 2½ yardlands of arable meadow situated in Cossington in the occupation of Allexander [sic]”, 16 April 1608. Will dated 26 Jan. 1622/3 – in which she was described as “Agnes Coates [sic] of the Parish of Aylestone [sic] in the County of Leicester widow” & mentioned “Alexander Coates [sic] my sonne [sic]”, “Thomas Coates [sic] my sonne [sic]”, “Roger Coates [sic] my sonne [sic]”, “Robert Coates [sic] my sonne [sic]”, “Katyerine [sic] Foxley my daughter”, “Agnes [sic] Swinfeild [sic]”, “Elizabeth Waldsome [sic] my daughter” & “John Coates [sic] my sonne [sic]”. Died 1623. Will Proved at the Archdeaconry Court of Leicester, 7 June 1623), d. of Robert Starkey, of Sutton on the Hill, Co. Derby. At the baptism of his son John he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismall register as “John Cootes [sic]”, 24 Oct. 1562. At the burial of his son John he was recorded in the Aylestone burial register as “John Cootes [sic]”, 11 Jan. 1562/3. At the baptism of his daughter Joan he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 15 Nov. 1563. At the baptism of his daughter Anne he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 26 Feb. 1565/6. At the baptism of his son Alexander he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 21 Oct. 1568. At the baptism of his son Thomas he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 20 Feb. 1571/2. At the baptism of his daughter Katherine he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 4 Nov. 1574. At the baptism of his son Roger he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 8 May 1580. At the baptism of his daughter Elizabeth he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 21 Aug. 1583. At the baptism of his son Robert he was recorded in the Aylestone baptismal register as “John Cotes”, 12 Jan. 1585/6. Recorded as “John Coots, querient” he purchased from “John Palmer, esquire & John Sleighe, gent” by fine for a consideration of £80 “one messuage, one garden, one orchard, 80 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 40 acres of pasture, 4 acres of wood, 40 acres of furze & heath, & common pasture in Cossington”, 1592. Recorded as “John Cotes of Aylestone, co Leicester, yeoman” for a consideration of £220 he entered into a Deed of Feoffment with “John Palmer, of Kegworth, co. Leicester & John Sleighe of Blackfordby, gent” in respect of a “messuage situated in Cossington in the tenure of William Chamberlen” under which the said property “& also one close called Belles Close & 2 small crofts or tofts & 2½ yardlands of arable ground & all other property belonging to Palmer in Cossington” was granted to him, 20 June 1592. Recorded as “John Cotes of Aylestone, co Leicester, yeoman” he settled the property described as “the messuage with the appurtenances, 3 tofts & crofts thereunto belonging, 2½ yardlands, meadow & pasture situated in Cossington” on “[his grandson] Alexander Cotes, son & heir of [his son] John Cotes, of Knighton, & [his son-in-law] Richard Swynford [sic] of Sutton Cheney, yeoman” for “his use for his life then to the use of Alexander, & his male heirs, if Agnes the wife of John Cotes survives him she is to have 1/3 of the above messuage & property during her life” by deed, 10 April 1601. Will dated 14 Oct. 1603 – in which he was described as “John Cootes [sic] of Ayleston in the Countie [sic] of Leicester yeoman” & mentioned “my sonn [sic] Roger Cootes [sic]”, “my daughter Ann Swinfeeld [sic]”, “my daughter Katereene [sic] Rowe [sic]”, “my sonn [sic] Thomas Cootes [sic]”, “my sonn [sic] Allicksander [sic] Cootes [sic]”, “my daughter Elizabeth Linfeeld [sic]”, “my sonn [sic] Allicksander [sic] his sonn [sic] John”, “my sonn [sic] Swinfeeld his sonn [sic] John”, “my wife Ann [sic] Cootes [sic]”, “John Cootes [sic] my sonn” who he appointed executor & appointed “my well-beloved friends Roger Starkye [sic] & Richard Swinfeeld [sic] & Allicksander [sic] Cotes overseers of this my last will”. Bur. 3 Nov. 1603 at Aylestone – recorded in the burial register as “John Coote [sic]”. Will Proved at the Archdeaconry Court of Leicester, 17 Dec. 1603. He had issue:
(Refs: Children’s Bapt Entries, 1562, 1563, 1566, 1568, 1572, 1574, 1580, 1583 & 1586; Son’s Bur Entry, 1563; Fine, 1592 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref: 44’28/529 & 30; Deed of Feoffment, 1592 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref: 44’28/531 & 532; Deed, 1601 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref 44’28/576; Release, 1608 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref: 44’28/607; Bur Entry, 1603; Will Leicester; HSP Leic, p 94; Nichols IV, p 35)
/
ANNE COTES, Bapt. 26 Feb. 1565/6 at Aylestone – recorded in the baptismal register as “Agnes [sic] Cotes daughter of John Cotes”. M 7 Feb. 1584/5 at Aylestone, RICHARD SWYNFEN, of Sutton Cheney, Co. Leic. (Born c. 1560. Will (nuncupative) dated 1633 in which it was recorded as follows – “the Will nuncupative of Richard Swinfen [sic] of Sutton Chaynew [sic] in the County of Leic. declared by him then being of sound & perfect remembrance in these words – I will that such money as I do owe to William Swinfen [sic] may be satisfied & paid & after these monies paid I do give & bequeath all the remainer of my goods & chattels whatsoever to Ann Swinfen [sic] my wife. Witnesses – Katherine Morris & Elizabeth Elkington”. Bur. 25 March 1633 at Sutton Cheney – recorded in the burial register as “Richard Swinfen [sic]”. Will Proved at the Archdeaconry Court of Leicester, 11 April 1633. In the inventory of his goods & chattels taken after his death by his sons-in-law George Morris & Thomas Armeston he was recorded as “Richard Swinfen [sic] late of Sutton Chaynell [sic] in the County of Leic. Gent”, 11 April 1633). At their marriage she & her husband were recorded in the Aylestone marriage register as “Richard Swinfeld [sic] & Agnes [sic] Cotes”. She was mentioned in her father’s will as “my daughter Ann Swinfeeld [sic]”, 14 Oct. 1603. In the pedigree of the Cotes family recorded in the ‘Visitation of Leicestershire’ in 1619 she was recorded as “Anna uxor [wife of] Ric’I Swinfin de Sutton Cheyney” & as the daughter of “Johannes Cotes de Elson in Com’ Leic” & “Agneta filia [daughter of] Rob’ti Sterkie de Sutton supra le monte in Com’ Derbiae”. In the pedigree of the Swynfen family recorded in the ‘Visitation of Leicestershire’ in 1619 she & her husband were recorded as “Richardus Swynfen de Sutton Chenell in Com’ Leic” & “Anna filia Joh’is Cotes de Elson in Com’ Leic”. She was mentioned in her mother’s will as “Agnes [sic] Swinfeild [sic]”, 26 Jan. 1622/3. She was mentioned in her husband’s will as “Ann Swinfen [sic] my wife”, 1633. She was mentioned in the will of her brother-in-law William Swynfen as “Anne Swynfen Widdow [sic] late wife of my deceased brother Richard Swynfen”, 27 Feb. 1635/6. Will dated 29 May 1641 – in which she was described as “Ann [sic] Swynfen of Sutton Cheynelly [sic] in the County of Leic., widdow [sic] late wyfe [sic] of Richard Swynfen of Sutton aforesaid gent” & mentioned “my grandchild Richard Swynfen seacond [sic[ sonn [sic] of my only sonn [sic] John Swynfen”, “George Morris my grandchild”, “Ann Armeston my eldest daughter”, “Elizabeth Elkington my seacond [sic] daughter” & “William Swynfen eldest sonn [sic] of my said sonn [sic] John Swynfen”, “Elizabeth Swynfen youngest daughter of my said sonn [sic] John”, “my five grandchildren viz Robert, Thomas, John, Francis & Edward younger sonnes [sic] of my sonn [sic] John Swynfen”, “my sonn [sic] John Swynfen his wyfe [sic]”, “my brother John Cots [sic] & my sister Foxley” & “my executor…a gravestone to be laid in the usual burring [sic] place of my husband aforesaid in the chappell [sic] of Sutton aforesaid to remayne [sic] a monument for my said husband & me with both our names thereon”. Died 1642. Will Proved at the Archdeaconry Court of Leicester, 10 May 1642. She had issue:
(Refs: Bapt Entry, 1566; M Entry, 1585; Father’s will, 1603; Mother’s will, 1623; Husband’s will, 1633; Brother-in-law’s will, 1636; Will Leicester; Nichols IV, pp 35 & 546; HSP Leic, pp 94 & 134; Burke’s LG 1871, p 1347)
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JOHN SWYNFEN, of Sutton Cheney, Co. Leic., Born 1595. He was mentioned in the will of his maternal grandfather John Cotes as “my sonn [sic] Swinfeeld his sonn [sic] John”, 14 Oct. 1603. He was recorded in the ‘Visitation of Leicestershire’ pedigree of the Swynfen family at the taken in 1619 as “aged 24”. M c. 1620 Anne (Bur. 2 Dec. 1665 at Sutton Cheney – recorded in the burial register as “Mrs Anne Swinfenn [sic]”), d. of John Stratford, of Nuneaton & Ansley, Co. Warw. He was mentioned in the will of his paternal uncle William Swynfen as “my nephew John Swynfen of Sutton Cheynell [sic] aforesaid gent” under which he was appointed executor, 27 Feb. 1635/6. He was mentioned in his mother’s will as “my only sonn [sic] John Swynfen”, 29 May 1641. Will dated 22 Aug. 1667 – in which he was described as “John Swynfen of Sutton Chaynell [sic] in the County of Leicester gent”, directed that “my body to be buried in the Chappell [sic] of Sutton aforesaid in the upper end of the north isle there it being the burying ground belonging to my house & the place wherein my late dear wyfe [sic] & many of my ancestors have been interred”, & mentioned “whereas my two eldest sonns [sic] William & Richard are both dead & leave no issue male behind them it being in my power to dispose of my lands tenements & hereditaments in Sutton aforesaid & in Cadeby in the County of Leicester I do hereby give & bequesth all my houses lands tenements & hereditaments with their & every of their appurtenances in Sutton & Cadeby aforesaid to my younger sonne [sic] Edward Swynfen & to the heirs of his body lawfully to be begotten for ever & for fault of such issue then to my sonne [sic] Robert Swynfen & the heirs of his body lawfully begotten or to be begotten for ever…”, “my said sonne [sic] Richard’s two daughters”, “my son Thomas Swynfen”, “my sonne [sic] John Swynfen”, “my son Francis if he returns from beyond the seas” & “my two daughters Anne the wyfe [sic] of John Peanor [sic] & Elizabeth the wyfe [sic] of George Somerfield”. Bur. 19 Sept. 1667 at Sutton Cheney – recorded in the burial register as “John Swinfen [sic] gent”. Will Proved at the Archdeaconry Court of Leicester, 26 Sept. 1667. He had issue:
(Refs: Grandfather’s will, 1603; Uncle’s will, 1636; Mother’s will, 1641; Bur Entry, 1667; Will Leicester; Nichols IV, p 546; HSP Leic, p 134; Burke’s LG 1871, p 1347)
/
FRANCIS SWYNFEN, of Maryland, North America., Born after 27 Feb. 1635/6. He was mentioned in the will of his paternal grandmother Ann Swynfen with his brothers as “my five grandchildren viz Robert, Thomas, John, Francis & Edward younger sonnes [sic] of my sonn [sic] John Swynfen”, 29 May 1641. He was recorded as having immigrated to Maryland in North America. Died 3 Feb. 1685/6.
(Refs: Grandmother’s will, 1641; Nichols IV, p 546)

Comments and criticisms welcome.

Robert O'Connor
r***@yahoo.com
2017-11-20 17:36:23 UTC
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Interesting.

I believe the Rev. John Davenport of New Haven, Connecticut, also descended from Roger Downton and wife Joan St. Owen via the Hevyn and Shirley families. At least, I think one of the Worcestershire Visitations shows such a line.
r***@yahoo.com
2017-11-20 18:05:55 UTC
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Actually, Herefordshire, not Worcestershire ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=MF9BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45&dq=hevyn+dilwyn&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3hIfE3s3XAhUMOiYKHRYrDlkQ6AEIUjAI#v=onepage&q=st%20owen&f=false
r***@yahoo.com
2017-11-20 18:54:19 UTC
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Also, as another posting noted long ago, Thomas1 Thom[p]son of Connecticut might share in this same Downton-St. Owen line of descent:

Thomas Downton + Margaret Lingen
Isabel Downton + John Hevyn of Clyberry, Shropshire, and Dilwyn, Herefordshire
Jane Hevyn/ Haven + Walter Broughton
Anna Broughton + John Dodington/Detton
Robert Doddington/Detton + Mary Kettleby
George Doddington/Detton + Anne ap Thomas
Beatrice Detton + John Thomson
Thomas Thomson of CONNECTICUT.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-03/1017528787

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2014-10/1413668297

https://books.google.com/books?id=RVl7Y0xUv5kC&pg=PA166&dq=shropshire+dodington&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fslCVIfkJI32yQS0iICIDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=shropshire%20dodington&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=ESoEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA83&dq=%22walterus+brough%22+hodnett&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvrL-y6c3XAhUDKyYKHS8bA_sQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22walterus%20brough%22%20hodnett&f=false
r***@yahoo.com
2017-11-20 19:40:52 UTC
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http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2014-10/1413668297

I should point out another mismatched piece of evidence which I apparently glossed over in my 2014 posting on the Thom[p]son ancestry.

The daughter, Ann, of William Ap Walter and Isabel Denton, is stated in the Essex Visition to have married "THOMAS Denton of Denton in com. Salop gent."

https://books.google.com/books?id=0m1KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA310&dq=%22ann+mar+to+thomas+denton+of%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIo97R783XAhUHwiYKHSyrA5QQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22ann%20mar%20to%20thomas%20denton%20of%22&f=false

On its face, this does not match with the Doddington/Detton pedigree in the 1623 Shropshire visitation, which states that GEORGE Doddington/Detton married "Anne da. to Walter ap Thomas."

https://books.google.com/books?id=n1E_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA166&dq=%22the+ketlebys+were%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3ztXL8M3XAhWGPiYKHb-7D7QQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20ketlebys%20were%22&f=false

I still think my original idea is correct:

(1) the family into which Anne married, as stated in Essex visitation records, was "Denton of Denton in com Salop gent." I don't believe there _was_ extant a "Denton of Denton" family of Shropshire, but as clearly shown, there certainly was a "Detton of Detton" family ("Detton" being the modernized form of the original placename "Doddington").

(2) the difference, which I remarked upon, in the 1585 will of Anne's brother, Edward Grenville, between the rendering of Anne's married surname, which looks like "Deitton," and the rendering of the surname of Edward's and Anne's "Aunte Suzan Denton," where "Denton" is clearly and recognizably "Denton."

(3) the Shropshire visitation, probably confused as to the first name of the father of bride Anne by traditional Welsh usages, calls him Thomas, not William, but at least mentions the association with Tye Hall, Essex, a place that is known to have belonged to Thomases and ap Walters descended from Heveninghams.

It should also be noted that GEORGE Detton, his father's heir, had a second-oldest brother Thomas. Also, George Detton's own heir is shown as another Thomas Detton.

Finally, it is clear that George Detton spent time in the vicinity of London in the 1570s, as "George Detton, late of New Inn, son and heir of Robert Detton of Detton, Shropshire," is shown admitted to the Middle Temple in 1571.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TiLGAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA176&dq=%22son+and+heir+of+Robert+Detton%22+George&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi65Ky77s3XAhVC7CYKHTQ_AL4Q6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=%22son%20and%20heir%20of%20Robert%20Detton%22%20George&f=false
r***@yahoo.com
2017-11-20 23:27:44 UTC
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This paper tells us that Thomasina Heveningham was the heiress of Tye Hall in Roxwell, Essex, and that the descendants of her third husband (Thomas, ap Walter) held it "by special entail."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027063241;view=1up;seq=440
Thomas
2018-05-18 12:21:57 UTC
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Post by Robert O'Connor
I have developed a potential royal descent from Henry I, King of England for the Swynfen family of Sutton Cheney, Leicestershire. The Swynfens appear in the Visitation of Leicestershire of 1619.
1) It being accepted that Alice de Braose (wife of Ralph St Owen) was the daughter of Sir Peter de Braose of Tetbury (d 1312). In a recent discussion, some in this Newsgroup accepted this connection, but others did not.
2.The Cotes pedigree in Nichols’ ‘History of Leicestershire’ IV at p 35, and the link to the Cotes family of Woodcote, being correct.
For the interest of those on this list focused on American gateway lines, I have carried the line down to Francis Swynfen of Maryland (d 1686)
/
(Refs: CP XI App D, p 106; Weis, pp 66 & 112; TAG 73:4, p 308; RA II, p 124)
/
(Refs: Weis, pp 66 & 112; Leese, p 26; RD500, p 387)
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(Refs: Weis, p 67; Leese, p 26)
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(Refs: RA I, pp 527-8; Weis, p 67; MCS II, p 37; Sanders, p 105)
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(Refs: RA I, pp 530-1; Weis, p 31; CP II, p 302; MCA, p 135; Sanders, p 90)
/
(Refs: CP II, pp 302 & 308, & XIV, p 110; MCS II, p 159; RD500, p 334; RD600, p 422; Rees, p 524)
/
(Refs: CIPM, V, p 182 (item 321); RA V, pp 142-3; CP II, p 308; MCA, p 814; NEHGR 150, p 318; RD600, p 422; VCH Glouc, XI, pp 264-5)
/
(Refs: CCR, XXXIV, p 158; CPR, XXVII, p 189; Rees, p 524; Davis 2, p 24; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; HSP Shrops, p 152)
/
(Refs: CIPM, VIII, pp 219-220 (no 238);CCR, XXXIII, p 313;HSP Shrops, p 152;HSP Hereford 1569, p 94;MGH, 4th Series, Vol V, p 290;Rees, p 524)
/
(Refs: Father’s IPM, 1371; CIPM, VIII, pp 219-220; HSP Shrops, p 152; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94)
/
(Refs: CIPM, XVIII, pp 218-9 (nos 660-1)Cal CR, Vol 46, pp 310-1; Cal FR, Vol 13, pp 177-8; HSP Shrops, pp 82 & 152; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; MGH, 4th Series, Vol V, p 290)
/
(Refs: CIPM, XVIII, pp 218-9 (nos 660-1); Cal CR, Vol 46, pp 310-1 & Vol 51, p 84-5; Cal FR, Vol 13, pp 177-8; Cal PR, Vol 44, p 203; HSP Shrops, p 153; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; VCH Sussex, VI, p 11)
/
(Refs: HSP Shrops, pp 150 & 15; HSP Hereford 1569, p 94; Nichols IV, p 35)
/
(Ref: Nichols IV, p 35)
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(Refs: Will Lichfield; Nichols IV, p 35)
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(Refs: Father’s will, 1537; Admon Lichfield; HSP Leic, p 94; Nichols IV, p 35)
/
(Refs: Children’s Bapt Entries, 1562, 1563, 1566, 1568, 1572, 1574, 1580, 1583 & 1586; Son’s Bur Entry, 1563; Fine, 1592 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref: 44’28/529 & 30; Deed of Feoffment, 1592 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref: 44’28/531 & 532; Deed, 1601 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref 44’28/576; Release, 1608 – Leicester & Rutland Record Office Ref: 44’28/607; Bur Entry, 1603; Will Leicester; HSP Leic, p 94; Nichols IV, p 35)
/
(Refs: Bapt Entry, 1566; M Entry, 1585; Father’s will, 1603; Mother’s will, 1623; Husband’s will, 1633; Brother-in-law’s will, 1636; Will Leicester; Nichols IV, pp 35 & 546; HSP Leic, pp 94 & 134; Burke’s LG 1871, p 1347)
/
(Refs: Grandfather’s will, 1603; Uncle’s will, 1636; Mother’s will, 1641; Bur Entry, 1667; Will Leicester; Nichols IV, p 546; HSP Leic, p 134; Burke’s LG 1871, p 1347)
/
FRANCIS SWYNFEN, of Maryland, North America., Born after 27 Feb. 1635/6. He was mentioned in the will of his paternal grandmother Ann Swynfen with his brothers as “my five grandchildren viz Robert, Thomas, John, Francis & Edward younger sonnes [sic] of my sonn [sic] John Swynfen”, 29 May 1641. He was recorded as having immigrated to Maryland in North America. Died 3 Feb. 1685/6.
(Refs: Grandmother’s will, 1641; Nichols IV, p 546)
Comments and criticisms welcome.
Robert O'Connor
Hello
I also descend from the Sywnfens of Sutton Cheney.
Through Richard Swynfens daughter Elizabeth who marries John Elkington of Shawell.
I'm wondering if yourself or anyone else that you know of has done anymore in depth work on the Swynfen family?

As I've come across other pedigree's which list the Swynfens descent from King Henry II of England through his illegitimate son William Longespee.
These seem to be fairly tenuous so I take them with a pinch of Salt.

So I'm not 100% sure on possible generation groupings but this has been the general gist from what I can see.

Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1555 D.1633 Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1525 D.? Son of =
Thomas Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1495 D.? Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1455 D.? Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheneny B.c1415 D.? Son of =
Thomas Swynfen of Swynfen B.c1370 D.? Son of =
Helena or Matilda de Freford. B.c1340 D.? Dau of =
Sir John de Freford and Margaret de Grendon - Margaret dau of =
Sir Ralph de Grendon and Joan de Clinton - Joan dau of =
Sir John de Clinton and Ida d'Oddingselles
*Although this Joan is also given as the wife of Sir John de Montfort.
Ida dau of =
William d'Oddingselles and Ela FitzWalter/FitzRobert - Ela dau of =
Walter FitzWalter and Ida Longespee - Ida dau of =
William Longespee I and Ela Fitzpatrick - William son of =
King Henry II of England and Ida de Tosny.
Robert O'Connor
2018-05-19 03:46:15 UTC
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Post by Thomas
Hello
I also descend from the Sywnfens of Sutton Cheney.
Through Richard Swynfens daughter Elizabeth who marries John Elkington of Shawell.
I'm wondering if yourself or anyone else that you know of has done anymore in depth work on the Swynfen family?
As I've come across other pedigree's which list the Swynfens descent from King Henry II of England through his illegitimate son William Longespee.
These seem to be fairly tenuous so I take them with a pinch of Salt.
So I'm not 100% sure on possible generation groupings but this has been the general gist from what I can see.
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1555 D.1633 Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1525 D.? Son of =
Thomas Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1495 D.? Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1455 D.? Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheneny B.c1415 D.? Son of =
Thomas Swynfen of Swynfen B.c1370 D.? Son of =
Helena or Matilda de Freford. B.c1340 D.? Dau of =
Sir John de Freford and Margaret de Grendon - Margaret dau of =
Sir Ralph de Grendon and Joan de Clinton - Joan dau of =
This line unfortunately breaks here as Joan de Clinton (wife of Ralph de Grendon) was the daughter of Sir John de Clinton of Coleshill (d 1316) & his wife Alice.

This Joan de Clinton was a first cousin of the John de Clinton who married Ida d'Odingsells.
Post by Thomas
Sir John de Clinton and Ida d'Oddingselles
*Although this Joan is also given as the wife of Sir John de Montfort.
Ida dau of =
William d'Oddingselles and Ela FitzWalter/FitzRobert - Ela dau of =
Walter FitzWalter and Ida Longespee - Ida dau of =
William Longespee I and Ela Fitzpatrick - William son of =
King Henry II of England and Ida de Tosny.
wjhonson
2018-05-19 20:42:31 UTC
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Post by Robert O'Connor
Post by Thomas
Hello
I also descend from the Sywnfens of Sutton Cheney.
Through Richard Swynfens daughter Elizabeth who marries John Elkington of Shawell.
I'm wondering if yourself or anyone else that you know of has done anymore in depth work on the Swynfen family?
As I've come across other pedigree's which list the Swynfens descent from King Henry II of England through his illegitimate son William Longespee.
These seem to be fairly tenuous so I take them with a pinch of Salt.
So I'm not 100% sure on possible generation groupings but this has been the general gist from what I can see.
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1555 D.1633 Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1525 D.? Son of =
Thomas Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1495 D.? Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheney B.c1455 D.? Son of =
William Swynfen of Sutton Cheneny B.c1415 D.? Son of =
Thomas Swynfen of Swynfen B.c1370 D.? Son of =
Helena or Matilda de Freford. B.c1340 D.? Dau of =
Sir John de Freford and Margaret de Grendon - Margaret dau of =
Sir Ralph de Grendon and Joan de Clinton - Joan dau of =
This line unfortunately breaks here as Joan de Clinton (wife of Ralph de Grendon) was the daughter of Sir John de Clinton of Coleshill (d 1316) & his wife Alice.
This Joan de Clinton was a first cousin of the John de Clinton who married Ida d'Odingsells.
Close but no cigar.
See

https://books.google.com/books?id=PqFJAQAAMAAJ&dq=John%20de%20CLinton%201316&pg=PA201#v=onepage&q=John%20de%20CLinton%201316&f=true
Robert O'Connor
2018-05-19 22:54:48 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Close but no cigar.
See
https://books.google.com/books?id=PqFJAQAAMAAJ&dq=John%20de%20CLinton%201316&pg=PA201#v=onepage&q=John%20de%20CLinton%201316&f=true
For those of us outside the US we can only access a limited "snippet" view of this reference.

What does it tell us?
John Higgins
2018-05-20 02:49:04 UTC
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Post by Robert O'Connor
Post by wjhonson
Close but no cigar.
See
https://books.google.com/books?id=PqFJAQAAMAAJ&dq=John%20de%20CLinton%201316&pg=PA201#v=onepage&q=John%20de%20CLinton%201316&f=true
For those of us outside the US we can only access a limited "snippet" view of this reference.
What does it tell us?
The item which Will cites above is vol. 8 (1904) of "The Ancestor", available via the Internet Archive here:
https://archive.org/details/ancestorquarterl08unse

The volume can also be viewed via the links at the HathiTrust website here:
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Search/Home?lookfor=The%20Ancestor%20%3A%20a%20quarterly%20review&searchtype=title&ft=&setft=false

On page 201 there is a simplified pedigree of the two pertinent branches of the Clinton family, Maxstoke and Coleshill. For the Coleshill branch, it shows three John Clintons in a row, with dates (some estimated) for each. It agrees with information shown in CP 3:313 sub Clinton, insofar as CP shows dates.

But the Ancestor pedigree shows no wives or daughters for any of the John Clintons of Coleshill. So it's hard to see how anyone could reach any conclusion, based on this source alone at least, as to where Joan Clinton who married Sir Ralph de Grendon fits into the family. "Close but no cigar?" Not based on this source.

CP 8:111 sub Grendon says that Sir Ralph de Grendon married (2 of 3) in or before 1299 Joan, daughter of Sir John Clinton of Coleshill. The estimated marriage date in CP and the estimated birth date of 1270 for the second John Clinton in the Ancestry pedigree would indicate that Joana was the daughter of the first John Clinton of Coleshill - and sister of the second John Clinton. This would also mean that Joan was also the first cousin of the John Clinton of Maxstoke who married Ida de Oddingseles - as Robert indicated above.

However I don't see that the first John Clinton of Coleshill (d. 1315/6) had a wife named Alice, as Robert indicated - although his son John (d. vp) did marry Alice de Grendon. What am I missing here?
Robert O'Connor
2018-05-20 04:31:57 UTC
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Thanks John.

I have checked my sources for John Clinton (d 1315/6) and can't find a reference for a wife "Alice". Accordingly, please disregard that reference.

One other minor correction, the CP Grendon article is in Vol 6, rather than Vol 8

Robert
wjhonson
2018-05-20 15:58:57 UTC
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https://books.google.com/books?id=PqFJAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA201

https://books.google.com/books?id=MycVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA6

https://books.google.com/books?id=CBwIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA359

Ralph Grendon married *two* women both named Johanna "Joan"

The second one was Joan de Clinton, she was the mother of the three sisters

By the first wife he was succeeded by his son
Ralph de /Grendon/ , Knt who d 5E3
wjhonson
2018-05-20 16:00:39 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
https://books.google.com/books?id=PqFJAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA201
https://books.google.com/books?id=MycVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA6
https://books.google.com/books?id=CBwIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA359
Ralph Grendon married *two* women both named Johanna "Joan"
The second one was Joan de Clinton, she was the mother of the three sisters
By the first wife he was succeeded by his son
Ralph de /Grendon/ , Knt who d 5E3
The idea that he was already married to Joan de Clinton in 1299 is due to a deed jointly but his wife is *only* there named as "Joan", no indication of her ancestry.
t***@hotmail.co.uk
2018-05-21 13:01:18 UTC
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Thank very much for clearing that up. I’ve only started going through my tree again with a tooth comb and knew there was a query somewhere on that line but couldn’t remember if it was with Joan or not.

I have some queries in regards to a few other bits on this which I’m sure have been answered before.

1. What’s the general consensus that John Cotes of Aylestone is the Son of Alexander?
I note that visitation lists them as such and so does Leicestershire antiquities. John also named a son Alexander aswell. I’ve seen someone else nearly disregard the connection due to John’s Arms being different to that of his fathers or more specifically that of Cotes of Withington/Woodcote. This could be explained by being descended from another branch and being granted different arms?

Cotes of Aylestone given in visitation - ‘Argent, a fret azure, on a canton or, a lion rampant sable’

Cotes of Withington/Woodcote - ‘Quarterly ermine and paly of six or and gules’


2. Joan St Owen the daughter of Jane Tyrell dau of Sir Hugh Tyrell of Bromscroft/Normanscroft.
Some people give her as possible dau of John St Owen and either a ‘Margaret’ or an ‘Elizabeth Barkley/Berkeley’. Sometimes putting the later as an extra generation between so it looks like -
John St Owen and Jane Tyrell had issue -
John St Owen and Elizabeth Barkley had issue -
Joan St Owen and Roger Downton.
t***@hotmail.co.uk
2018-05-21 14:36:07 UTC
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the ‘Sir Hugh Tyrrell of Bromscroft/Normanscroft/Tyrell’s court.
I can’t really find anything on him, is he the Sir Hugh who married Joan Flambard?
wjhonson
2018-05-19 01:10:10 UTC
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The problem in the descent given by Thomas is in making Joan de Clinton, second wife of Radulphus "Ralph" de /Grendon/ , Knt into a daughter of Ida Oddingsells

Joan's actual father was the uncle-in-law of Ida.

See

https://books.google.com/books?id=CBwIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA359
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