Discussion:
John Norbury Esq Treasurer Exchequer 1400 died 1414
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Paul Bulkley
2017-03-04 09:45:53 UTC
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The web page "History of Parliament" provides summarised information of
John Norbury based on M.Barber´s article (EUR LXVIII 66 - 76). He was
described very active commanding a freelance company on the Breton March as
early as 1368 in the service of Duke John IV of Brittany. Thereafter 1370s
- 1380s employed in armed activities, imprisonment, property acquisitions
(Hertfordshire), and marriage.

Allowing for mid age generations of Roger (1300), David (1325), Thomas
(1350), and John /1375), the above information appears reasonable although
a young soldier aged 7 or 8 years in an initial leadership role seems
incredible.

According to Wiketree John Norbury (son) Thomas was born about 1375.
Pedigree given was father Thomas born about 1335, son of David Norbury,
married a Miss Pembridge.

If the date of 1375 is correct, all the information given in "History of
Parliament" is incorrect. However consideration of the probable pedigree
dates suggests that John Norbury was born on or about 1355 rather than 1375.

Paul Bulkley
John Watson
2017-03-04 10:16:50 UTC
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Post by Paul Bulkley
The web page "History of Parliament" provides summarised information of
John Norbury based on M.Barber´s article (EUR LXVIII 66 - 76). He was
described very active commanding a freelance company on the Breton March as
early as 1368 in the service of Duke John IV of Brittany. Thereafter 1370s
- 1380s employed in armed activities, imprisonment, property acquisitions
(Hertfordshire), and marriage.
Allowing for mid age generations of Roger (1300), David (1325), Thomas
(1350), and John /1375), the above information appears reasonable although
a young soldier aged 7 or 8 years in an initial leadership role seems
incredible.
According to Wiketree John Norbury (son) Thomas was born about 1375.
Pedigree given was father Thomas born about 1335, son of David Norbury,
married a Miss Pembridge.
If the date of 1375 is correct, all the information given in "History of
Parliament" is incorrect. However consideration of the probable pedigree
dates suggests that John Norbury was born on or about 1355 rather than 1375.
Paul Bulkley
Dear Paul,

Wikitree is a collaborative effort, and if you find something wrong, please feel free to revise and update the particular page or pages where you think it is in error.

Regards,

John
taf
2017-03-04 13:06:40 UTC
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Post by Paul Bulkley
The web page "History of Parliament" provides summarised information of
John Norbury based on M.Barber´s article (EUR LXVIII 66 - 76).
that's EHR - English Historical Review.
Post by Paul Bulkley
According to Wiketree John Norbury (son) Thomas was born about 1375.
Pedigree given was father Thomas born about 1335, son of David Norbury,
married a Miss Pembridge.
A lot of dates on Wikitree have no historical basis whatsoever. This one clearly does not. It probably comes from taking a starting point several generations away and using a rule of thumb to 'approximate' birthdates generation by generation. The cumulative effect of this can be dates that are off by decades.
Post by Paul Bulkley
If the date of 1375 is correct,
It's not.
Post by Paul Bulkley
all the information given in "History of
Parliament" is incorrect. However consideration of the probable pedigree
dates suggests that John Norbury was born on or about 1355 rather than 1375.
You have one work compiled by a professional historian with citations to primary documents, and then on the other hand you have a collaborative web page with information added by who knows, based on who knows, and it is even a question which is more accurate?

taf
Andrew Lancaster
2017-03-04 13:25:26 UTC
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Hello Paul

For convenience, I can do this for you. (Pre 1500 profiles require some editing history on wikitree.) So to check:-

I think this is an adapted online version of the Barber article you use:

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/norbury-john-1414

I think the wikitree profile you are looking at is this one:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Norbury-3

It currently cites (but does not necessarily use):

1.
'Parishes: Essendon,' in A History of the County of Hertford: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London: Victoria County History, 1912), 458-462, accessed March 15, 2016, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp458-462

[We can at least say the article quotes from this source.]

2.
"Royal Ancestry" 2013, D. Richardson Vol. IV. p. 250

[I think the Richardson source is not really being used. It is not a page which gives much information for this person.]

Temporary conclusion: some one may have just filled in a quick estimate of the birth year. Next question is whether the identification being made in HOP is reasonable, because it is much earlier than many of his other activities.

I note that your estimate, reasonable at first sight, would make John slightly older than his father-in-law, which is possible, but enough to make us cautious.

I worked on the daughter's profile, and there is an interesting source by Ashdown-Hill named there, coming from the Richard III essays:

http://www.richardiii.net/downloads/Ricardian/2004_vol14_ashdown_hill_lady_eleanor_talbot.pdf

I seem to recall reading more good online essays touching upon this family, by Ashdown-Hill.

I see he notes:

" The career of Sir John Norbury I is well documented, although the fact that he was Sir Thomas Butler’s grandfather has not previously been recognised. He is first encountered as an esquire in the service of the house of Lancaster, being specifically attached to John of Gaunt’s son, Henry (the future Henry IV). John Norbury accompanied Henry into exile in France when he was banished by his cousin, King Richard II, and returned with him to England in 1399, when, shortly before his abdication, Richard II was forced to appoint Norbury as treasurer of England, a post which he then held for the entire reign of Henry IV, and which brought him into close contact with the rich businessmen in the city of London whose loans, together with loans from Sir John Norbury himself, were to finance Henry IV’s government. Prominent among these businessmen was John Hende II, a very wealthy widower to whom, in about 1408, Sir John Norbury was able to marry his young daughter, Elizabeth."

[He cites Barber.]

If anyone see a problem with Paul's suggestion let me know then and otherwise I will adjust John Norbury's birth year. (And add some links to this discussion and the sourcing above.)
Douglas Richardson
2017-03-04 19:32:08 UTC
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Dear Andrew ~

I suppose I could say that I'm pleased that the online wikitree account for John Norbury, Esq. cites my Royal Ancestry book as one of its two sources for its account of him. However, given that the wikitree information contains such a stunning number of errors and omissions, I have to wonder if the person who created the wikitree account actually saw what I wrote in my book regarding John Norbury, Esq.

Having said that, I've copied below my current file account regarding John Norbury, Esq. [died 1414], who was an important individual in the reigns of King Henry IV and King Henry V. The file account contains two statements regarding his early career, both of which I've pulled from secondary sources. One statement concerns him being a soldier in 1368 in Brittany, the other him fighting in Portugal in 1385. I suspect the first statement could be false, or that it could pertain to another person of the same name. The 1385 statement is almost certainly correct.

Whatever the case, wikitree is wrong to place John Norbury's birth as being "about 1375" as he appears to have married his first wife, Pernel, about 1385. He was surely married in or about 1385, as his daughter, Joan's 1st husband, Nicholas Uske, Treasurer of Calais, died testate in 1403. The marriage of Nicholas and Joan must have been recent to 1403, as Nicholas Uske had a wife named Alice as late as 1397 [see Papal Regs.: Letters 5 (1904): 52]. For evidence that Nicholas Uske's wife, Joan, was John Norbury's daughter, see the partial abstract of Uske's will published in Collectanea Franciscana 2 (1922): 83, available at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015035805475;view=1up;seq=467

I note that the wikitree account states that John Norbury, Esq. had two children, Elizabeth and Henry, both by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Boteler (or Butler). John Norbury actually had four children: two daughters Joan and Elizabeth by his 1st wife, Pernel, and two sons Henry, Knt., and John, Knt., by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Boteler (or Butler).

I might also note that John Norbury's daughter, Elizabeth, is known to have been a kinswoman of John Wheathampstead, Abbot of St. Albans, who was son of Hugh Bostock.

Petronilla, by the way, is Latin for Pernel (or Parnel) and should be avoided.

Finally, I should mention that I've found that John Norbury's widow, Elizabeth, was called Isabel in a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1450. While Elizabeth and Isabel were certainly interchangeable in earlier time periods, all other records I have encountered of this woman call her Elizabeth. As such, I have every confidence that her correct name was Elizabeth.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

1. ELIZABETH BOTELER (or BUTLER), married (1st) (as his 2nd wife) WILLIAM HERON, Knt., Lord Say, of Eshot and East Duddoe, Northumberland, Knight of the Shire for Northumberland, Steward of the Household to King Henry IV, and, in right of his 1st wife, of Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, Long Stratton, Norfolk, Buxted, Newtimber, and Streat, Sussex, etc., son and heir of John Heron, of Eppleton (parish of Houghton-le-Spring), Durham, Branton, Crawley, Eschot, and Hedgeley, Northumberland, etc. They had no issue. In consequence of his 1st marriage to Elizabeth Say (died 8 July 1399), he was summoned to Parliament from 13 Nov. 1393 to 25 August 1404, by writs directed Willelmo Heron’, whereby he is held to have become Lord Say. In 1397 Robert Knolles, Knt. sued William Heron, Knt. in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 22 marks. His trustees presented to the church of Little Bookham, Surrey in 1400. He was heir in 1404 to his brother, Gerard Heron, Knt. SIR WILLIAM HERON, Lord Say, died testate 30 October 1404. She married (2nd) before 30 October 1410 (as his 2nd wife) JOHN NORBURY, Esq., of Hoddesden, Bedwell (in Essendon), and Little Berkhampstead, Hertfordshire, King’s esquire, Knight of the Shire for Hertfordshire, Lord High Treasurer, 1399–1401, member of council for King Henry V, Keeper of the Privy Wardrobe in the Tower of London, Captain of Guines, Justice of the Peace for Hertfordshire, 1413–14, younger son of Thomas de Norbury, of Nantwich, Cheshire, by his wife, _____, daughter and heiress of _____ Pembridge. They had two sons, Henry, Knt., and John, Knt. He married (1st) about 1385 PERNEL _____, by whom he had two daughters, Joan (wife of Nicholas Uske and William Parker) and Elizabeth (wife of John Hende and Ralph Boteler, K.G., Lord Sudeley [see SUDELEY 14.iii]). He left his family home to become a soldier in France, fighting in Brittany in the service of the Duke of Brittany in 1368. In 1385 he arrived at Lisbon from Bordeaux and served as a mercenary captain for João, King of Portugal, at the Battle of Aljubarrota. He joined the retinue of Henry, Earl of Derby (afterwards King Henry IV), and became a permanent member of the royal council, and later becoming Treasurer of England. In 1399 Henry, then Duke of Lancaster, granted him the forfeiture of all the lands belonging to John Ludwyk. Sometime after 1399 Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland granted him the manor of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire for the term of his life, which grant was confirmed by King Henry IV in 1412, with successive remainders to John’s wife, Elizabeth, and their sons, Henry and John. He was appointed an overseer of the 1403 will of his son-in-law, Nicholas Uske, late Treasurer of Calais. In 1406 he was granted a license to enclose 800 acres of land and wood adjoining his manors of Bedwell (in Essendon) and Little Berkhampstead, Hertfordshire to make a park. In 1412 the king confirmed the previous grant of Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmorland, to John Norbury, Esq., of the manor and the advowson of the church of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire for life, and, with the assent of the council and a certain sum of money, the king granted the same to the said John for life, with successive remainders for life to the said John’s wife, Elizabeth, and their sons, Henry and John. In 1413 he was granted the alien priory of Greenwich and Lewisham, Kent, with all the manors and lands belonging to it, during the war with France. JOHN NORBURY, Esq., died in 1414, and was buried in the church of the Grey Friars (now Christ’s Hospital), London, with his 1st wife. His widow, Elizabeth, married (3rd) before 1425 JOHN MONTGOMERY, Knt., of Faulkbourne, Blunts Hall (in Witham), and Great Tey, Essex, Bailiff of Calais, 1413, Privy Councillor to John, Duke of Bedford, Receiver of Summage, 1446–9. They had two sons, John, Esq., and Thomas, K.G., and one daughter, Alice. In 1426 he and his wife, Elizabeth, acquired the manor of Chalton, Hampshire from the executors of Gilbert Talbot, Knt. In 1439 he was licensed to fortify his house at Faulkbourne, Essex. In 1448 the manor of Chalton, Hampshire was settled on him and his wife, Elizabeth, and their issue. SIR JOHN MONTGOMERY died testate shortly before 5 July 1449. In 1450 Nicholas Michell, merchant, of Luca sued his widow, Elizabeth, as “Isabel Say, of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire, widow, formerly wife and executrix of John Montgomery, Knt.” in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. Elizabeth, Lady Say, died 5 Feb. 1465. She left a will dated 31 Jan. 1464/5, requesting burial at ErdburyArbury Priory, Warwickshire, where “the bones of her ancestors rest.” In 1470 Thomas Montgomery, Knt., and three others, executors of Elizabeth, Lady Say, sued William Ketilton, butcher, of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire, and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt.

References:

Dugdale, Antiqs. of Warwickshire (1656): 772 (Sudeley-Boteler ped.). Dugdale, Antiqs. of Warwickshire (1730): 521–523. Morant, Hist. & Antiqs. of Essex 2 (1768): 116. Banks, Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 1 (1807): 341 (sub Heron) (“William Heron … was an eminent soldier, and employed on various important embassies.”). Brydges, Collins’ Peerage of England 7 (1812): 16–39 (sub Twisleton, Lord Say and Sele). Surtees, Hist. & Antiqs. of Durham 1 (1816): 218 (Heron ped.). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 163 (will of William Heron); 2 (1826): 396 (will of Thomas Montgomery, Knt.). Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 3 (1827): 195–196 (Heron-Say ped.). Dallaway, Hist. of the Western Div. of Sussex 2(2) (1830): 76–78 (Shelley ped.). Fuller, Hist. of the Worthies of England (1840): 524–526. Cat. of Additions to MSS in the British Museum 1841–1845 (1850): 60. Monro, Letters of Queen Margaret of Anjou & Bishop Beckington (Camden Soc. 86) (1863): 105–106. Fortescue, Hist. of the Fam. of Fortescue (1880): chart facing 234, 247–249. Glover et al., Vis. of Cheshire 1580, 1566, 1533 & 1591 (H.S.P. 18) (1882): 54–56 (1580 Vis.) (Bulklegh ped.: “Sr John Norbury Thresorer of England mar. Elizabeth sister to Rafe Butler l: Sudley”). Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 7 (1882–3): 304 (Bray ped.). Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 44 (1883): 546, 548. Harvey et al., Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P. 19) (1884): 162–163 (Bray ped.: “Sr John Norbury Knt. = Elizabeth d. and heire [of Thomas Butler Baron of Sudley].”). Lewis, Pedes Finium; or, Fines Rel. Surrey (Surrey Arch. Soc. Extra Volume 1) (1894): 224. Kirby, Wykeham’s Reg. 1 (1896): 229. Benolte et al., Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1623 (H.S.P. 43) (1899): 219–221 (Vincent ped.: “Sr John Norbury Knt. Threaseror of England. = Ellizebeth [Botteler] sister and coheir”). Trans. Essex Arch. Soc. n.s. 7 (1900): 267–271. Surrey Arch. Colls. 19 (1906): 27–32; 20 (1907): 1–89. VCH Hampshire 3 (1908): 95, 105. C.P.R. 1408–1413 (1909): 65, 144, 283, 298–299, 404–405, 410, 453, 455. Home Counties Mag. 11 (1909): 266–280. C.P.R. 1413–1416 (1910): 161, 162, 419. VCH Hertford 3 (1912): 427–430, 446–447 (Norbury arms: Sable a chevron engrailed between three bulls’ heads caboshed argent), 458–462. Kingsford, Grey Friars of London (1915): 139–144. Collectanea Franciscana 2 (1922): 83 (will of Nicholas Uske, late Treasurer of Calais; will names John Norbury, Esq., father of his wife, as overseer of his will). Kingsford, Add’l Material for the Hist. of the Grey Friars, London (1922): 79–91. C.P. 6 (1926): 492–493 (sub Heron). C.C.R. 1408–1413 (1932): 189. Dodds, Hist. of Northumberland 14 (1935): 410–411 (Heron ped.). Misc. Gen. et Heraldica 5th Ser. 9 (1935–37): 232–245. Wedgwood, Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 604–605 (biog. of John Montgomery), 605–606 (biog. of Sir Thomas Montgomery), 635 (biogs. of Sir Henry Norbury and Sir John Norbury), 788 (biog. of Clement Spice). C.F.R. 18 (1939): 97. Legge, Anglo-Norman Letters & Petitions (Anglo-Norman Text Soc. 3) (1941): 116–117, 404–406, 412–413, 415, 417–419, 422, 424–426, 430, 435–436, 444–445 (“J.C.”, clerk, styled cousin by John Norbury), 448–449, 450–451, 453–458. Lamborn, Armorial Glass of the Oxford Diocese (1949): 96. English Hist. Rev. 68 (1953): 66–76 (biog. of John Norbury). Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 82: 7. Bull. John Rylands Lib. 42 (1959–60): 113–131. Ancient Deeds — Ser. B 2 (List & Index Soc. 101) (1974): B.7731, B.7733, B.7734, B.7738, B.7739, B.7959, B.7960, B.7962, B.8104; 3 (List & Index Soc. 113) (1975): B.10633. Ellis, Cat. Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978): 46 (seal of John Montgomery dated 1433 — A shield of arms: a chevron ermine between three fleurs-de-lys, with a small indistinct charge (perhaps a mark of cadency) in chief. Helm above with crest: a bush of feathers within a crown. The background is diapered with flowers. Legend: S’ IOHANNIS MONGOMERY MILIT’.). Petre, Richard III: Crown & People (1985): 149–155. Hicks, Who’s Who in Late Medieval England (2001): 192–194 (biog. of John Norbury: “… He joined Henry IV before his formal accession and immediately afterwards the new king appointed him Lord Treasurer, keeper of the privy wardrobe, captain of Guines, and a permanent councilor… Yet the man so honoured remained no more than an esquire. His case illustrates in an extreme form the medieval king’s right to seek advice where he chose and to favour his servants over his greatest subjects.”). Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 2 (1992): 458–459 (biog. of Sir Thomas Butler); 3 (1992): 843–846 (biog. of John Norbury); 4 (1992): 14–16 (biog. of William Parker). Cal. IPM 23 (2004): 89–90. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/544, image 48f, available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/R2/CP40no544/aCP40no544fronts/IMG_0048.htm. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 324f, available at
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/aCP40no555fronts/IMG_0324.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/758, image 250f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/aCP40no758fronts/IMG_0250.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/837, image 530d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no837/bCP40no837dorses/IMG_0530.htm).
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Hello Paul
For convenience, I can do this for you. (Pre 1500 profiles require some editing history on wikitree.) So to check:-
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/norbury-john-1414
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Norbury-3
1.
'Parishes: Essendon,' in A History of the County of Hertford: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London: Victoria County History, 1912), 458-462, accessed March 15, 2016, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp458-462
[We can at least say the article quotes from this source.]
2.
"Royal Ancestry" 2013, D. Richardson Vol. IV. p. 250
[I think the Richardson source is not really being used. It is not a page which gives much information for this person.]
Temporary conclusion: some one may have just filled in a quick estimate of the birth year. Next question is whether the identification being made in HOP is reasonable, because it is much earlier than many of his other activities.
I note that your estimate, reasonable at first sight, would make John slightly older than his father-in-law, which is possible, but enough to make us cautious.
http://www.richardiii.net/downloads/Ricardian/2004_vol14_ashdown_hill_lady_eleanor_talbot.pdf
I seem to recall reading more good online essays touching upon this family, by Ashdown-Hill.
" The career of Sir John Norbury I is well documented, although the fact that he was Sir Thomas Butler’s grandfather has not previously been recognised. He is first encountered as an esquire in the service of the house of Lancaster, being specifically attached to John of Gaunt’s son, Henry (the future Henry IV). John Norbury accompanied Henry into exile in France when he was banished by his cousin, King Richard II, and returned with him to England in 1399, when, shortly before his abdication, Richard II was forced to appoint Norbury as treasurer of England, a post which he then held for the entire reign of Henry IV, and which brought him into close contact with the rich businessmen in the city of London whose loans, together with loans from Sir John Norbury himself, were to finance Henry IV’s government. Prominent among these businessmen was John Hende II, a very wealthy widower to whom, in about 1408, Sir John Norbury was able to marry his young daughter, Elizabeth."
[He cites Barber.]
If anyone see a problem with Paul's suggestion let me know then and otherwise I will adjust John Norbury's birth year. (And add some links to this discussion and the sourcing above.)
Andrew Lancaster
2017-03-04 21:44:18 UTC
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Thank you every one. I have made some quick messy fixes. The world is a very slightly better place. :)

Wikis are never finished but hopefully those fixes will also be a better base to build upon.
Douglas Richardson
2017-03-05 00:08:54 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

This is a followup to my earlier post.

Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 3 (1992): 843–846 includes a good biography of John Norbury, Esq. This biography can be viewed at the following weblink:

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/norbury-john-1414#footnote12_kxf6w0a

Regarding his death date, the following information is provided by Roskell:

"Norbury retired from public life in 1409, and appears to have died in 1414, soon after making an elaborate settlement of his estates."

The statement that Norbury retired from public life in 1409 is not correct. John Norbury served as Justice of the Peace for Hertfordshire in 1413–14. See Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1413–1416 (1910): 419, available at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000008749636;view=1up;seq=431

Insofar as John Norbury dying in 1414, that information is also incorrect. The online discovery catalogue has the following record which shows that John Norbury, Esq. was still living as late as 3 Henry V [i.e, 1415-16]:

Reference: E 212/62
Description:
Grantor: Gilbert Talbot, lord of Archenfield (Irchenfelde) and Blackmere. Grantee: John Norbury, esquire. Subject: Grant of the manor of Chalton (Chalugton). Hampshire
Note: French
Date: 3 Hen. V
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

There doesn't appear to have been an inquisition post mortem taken John Norbury's death, so the exact year of his death is unknown. My research indicates that his widow, Elizabeth, married (3rd) John Montgomery, Knt. in or before 1425.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2017-03-05 02:04:54 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous post, I presented evidence that John Norbury, Esq., did not die in 1414, but was living in 1415-16.

For a better indication of his death date, I note that John Norbury, Esq., was appointed Constable of Leeds Castle for life on 31 August 1399 [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1396–1399 (1909): 595]. He presumably died shortly before 27 October 1420, when Geoffrey Yonge was appointed “Gatekeeper” of Leeds Castle [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1416–1422 (1911): 300].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
This is a followup to my earlier post.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/norbury-john-1414#footnote12_kxf6w0a
"Norbury retired from public life in 1409, and appears to have died in 1414, soon after making an elaborate settlement of his estates."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000008749636;view=1up;seq=431
Reference: E 212/62
Grantor: Gilbert Talbot, lord of Archenfield (Irchenfelde) and Blackmere. Grantee: John Norbury, esquire. Subject: Grant of the manor of Chalton (Chalugton). Hampshire
Note: French
Date: 3 Hen. V
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
There doesn't appear to have been an inquisition post mortem taken John Norbury's death, so the exact year of his death is unknown. My research indicates that his widow, Elizabeth, married (3rd) John Montgomery, Knt. in or before 1425.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2017-06-19 05:51:58 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

In an earlier post in this thread, I presented evidence that John Norbury, Esq., Lord High Treasurer of England, did not die in 1414, but was living as late as 1415-16, when Gilbert Talbot, lord of Archenfield and Blackmere, granted him the manor of Chalton, Hampshire [see National Archives, E 212/62, available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk].

I previously noted that John Norbury, Esq., was appointed Constable of Leeds Castle for life on 31 August 1399 [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1396–1399 (1909): 595]. I stated that he presumably died shortly before 27 October 1420, when Geoffrey Yonge was appointed “Gatekeeper” of Leeds Castle [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1416–1422 (1911): 300].

John Watson, however, has rightly pointed out that John Norbury, Esq., actually gave up the lordship and castle of Leeds, Kent sometime before 7 December 1412, as indicated by a record found in Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1408-1413 (1909): 453. The implication that John Norbury was living as late as 1420 was an error on my part.

We can be certain, however, that John Norbury died sometime before 23 October 1417, when his widow, Elizabeth, Lady Say, is known to have been married to her next husband, Sir John Montgomery. This new information is revealed in a footnote published in Aldrich, Register of the most noble Order of the Garter 1 (1724): 205, footnote s, which reads as follows:

“Lib. S. Albani in Bibl. Cotton. Nero D. 7. [Date:] 23 Oct. 1417. suscepit beneficium nostrae fraternitatis Elizabetha Domina Say; cujus interventu concessa fuit fraternitas nostri Capituli Domino Johanni de Montegomerico viro suo, qui pro tunc in ultramarinis militavit Domino nostro Regi Henrico.” END OF QUOTE.

The above source may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=CwxdAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA205

In summary, I find that John Norbury was living as late as 1415-16, and he died sometime before 23 October 1417.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2017-06-19 06:44:37 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

In my earlier post, I gave the following citation:

Aldrich, Register of the most noble Order of the Garter 1 (1724): 205, footnote "s."

I believe the citation should actually be:

Anstis, Register of the most noble Order of the Garter 2 (1724): 205, footnote "s."

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson
2017-03-12 20:23:53 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Paul Bulkeley has strangely ignored my post in this thread in which I correctly assigned two children to John Norbury, Esq., by his first wife, Pernel, namely Joan (wife of Nicholas Uske and William Parker) and Elizabeth (wife of John Hende and Ralph Boteler, K.G., Lord Sudeley). Perhaps following the bollixed account of the Norbury family in wikitree, Mr. Bulkeley insists on assigning Elizabeth as the child of John Norbury's 2nd marriage to Elizabeth Boteler, which sad to say is chronologically impossible.

Below are specific comments from the historian, John Ashdown-Hill, in which he states that Pernel, first wife of John Norbury, was living in 1401, and that their daughter, Elizabeth, married her first husband John Hende about 1408.

Source: 'Lady Eleanor Talbot's Other Husband: Sir Thomas
Butler, Heir of Sudeley, and his Family,' published in The Ricardian, 14 (2004): 62-81:

"Thomas [Boteler]'s mother was Ralph's first wife. Her name has been given by
most earlier writers as Elizabeth Hende [footnote: 'Complete Peerage',
vol. 12 part 1, London 1953, p. 421.] but, like Alice Lovel, Elizabeth
had also had a previous husband, and Hende was not her maiden name, but
rather the surname which she had acquired by that previous marriage ...
Elizabeth's maiden name was Norbury, which is a toponym. Her family
had for several generations held the manor of Norbury in Cheshire, and
under the earlier surname of Bulkeley, had been domiciled in that
county for even longer ... Sir Thomas's mother was the daughter of the
wealthy Sir John Norbury I of Norbury, Cheshire, Treasurer of England.
The career of Sir John Norbury I is well documented, although the fact
that he was Sir Thomas Butler's grandfather has not previously been
recognised.

"Elizabeth Norbury had at least one sister and two half-brothers. Her
father married twice. His first wife, the mother, if chronology is any
guide, of both Elizabeth and her sister, Joan, was called Petronilla,
but her maiden surname I have not discovered. Petronilla was still
living in August 1401, when she is named with her husband as the
recipient of Henry IV's grant of the manor of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire,
but by 1412 Sir John [Norbury] was married to Lord Sudeley's sister,
Elizabeth Butler, and they already had two sons. Probably Petronilla
died in about 1404 and Sir John's marriage with the widowed Elizabeth
Butler, Lady Say, took place in about 1405. [footnote: 'CPR 1399-1401',
p. 541; 'CPR 1408-13', p. 404.] ... As we have seen, thanks to her
father's business connections, in about 1408, Elizabeth [Norbury], who
was then probably about fifteen years of age, was married to the much
older but very wealthy widower, John Hende II, draper and past mayor
(1391-92 and 1404-05). John was probably aged about fifty-eight at the
time of marriage ... John Hende II died in 1418 ... About a year later,
Elizabeth married Ralph Butler, who, on the death of an elder brother,
had recently inherited the title of Lord Sudeley." END OF QUOTE.

I see that Mr. Ashdown-Hill gives rough approximate dates for the death of Pernel Norbury [c.1404] and for the 2nd marriage of John Norbury and Elizabeth Butler [c.1405]. He cites no documentation for these dates. Red flag. A similar estimated date is given for the marriage of John Hende and Elizabeth Norbury, again without documentation. Again red flag. Just because historians publish it, it doesn't make it correct. In the case of the marriage of John Hende and Elizabeth Norbury, I presume he has something on which he has based the date of their marriage as being about 1408. Elsewhere, in his book, Secret Queen, published in 2009, I note that Mr. Ashdown-Hill states that John Hende and Elizabeth Norbury had two sons, John, born 1409, and John (2nd of name), born 1412.

Assuming the birth dates of the Hende children are correct (and I believe they are), it is chronologically impossible for Elizabeth Norbury to be the child of her father's 2nd marriage.

One last comment: Mr. Ashdown-Hill repeatedly uses the Latin form of Petronilla for John Norbury's first wife. The correct modern form in English is Pernel or Parnel, either is fine.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


B
Andrew Lancaster
2017-03-13 08:02:31 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
Perhaps following the bollixed account of the Norbury family in wikitree, Mr. Bulkeley insists on assigning Elizabeth as the child of John Norbury's 2nd marriage to Elizabeth Boteler, which sad to say is chronologically impossible.
Hi Douglas

Since the discussion started there has been some work on the wikitree articles for this family. Elizabeth is disconnected from the first wife, but the profile for the second wife is not yet made.

Best Regards
Andrew
Douglas Richardson
2017-03-27 20:02:55 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous posts, I've assigned two children to John Norbury, Esq., by his first wife, Pernel, namely Joan (wife of Nicholas Uske and William Parker) and Elizabeth (wife of John Hende and Ralph Boteler, K.G., Lord Sudeley).

The historian, John Ashdown-Hill, in an article in The Ricardian, 14 (2004): 62-81 has stated that Pernel, first wife of John Norbury, was living in 1401, and that their daughter, Elizabeth Norbury, married her first husband John Hende about 1408.

Elsewhere in his book, Secret Queen, published in 2009, Mr. Ashdown-Hill further states that John Hende and Elizabeth Norbury had two sons, John, born 1409, and John (2nd of name), born 1412.

Below is the abstract of a fine dated 1407, which indicates that John Hende, Citizen of London, and his wife, Elizabeth Norbury, were married by 10 April 1407. As such, there can be no question now that Mr. Ashdown-Hill has correctly assigned Elizabeth Norbury as the child of John Norbury's first wife, Pernel, which Pernel was living in 1401.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + +

Source: Chris Phillips' website at the following link:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_290_61.shtml#114

CP 25/1/290/61, number 114.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Essex. Kent.
Place: Westminster.
Date: Two weeks from Easter, 8 Henry [IV] [10 April 1407]. And afterwards one week from Holy Trinity in the same year [29 May 1407].
Parties: John Hende, citizen of London', and Elizabeth, his wife, querents, and William Effeld', clerk, deforciant.
Property: The manors of Parua Canefeld', Parua Chishull' and Bradewell' by Coggeshale and the manor called Pycottes and 2 messuages, 3 mills, 800 acres of land, 32 acres of meadow, 72 acres of wood, 10 pounds of rent and a rent of 2 cocks and 20 hens in Bradewell', Feryng, Stystede, Coggeshale, Bockyng, Cressyng, Pateswyk, Parua Chishull' and Magna Chishull' and the advowson of the church of Parua in [sic] Chishull' in the county of Essex and the manors of Langeport, Olderomene, Ryngwelde and Cherleton' by Douorr' and the advowson of the church of Cherleton' by Douorr' in the county of Kent.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John has acknowledged the manors, tenements, rents and advowsons to be the right of William, as those which William has of his gift.
For this: William has granted to John and Elizabeth the manors, tenements, rents and advowsons and has rendered them to them in the court, to hold to John and Elizabeth and the heirs of their bodies, of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to John Co[o?]lpepir, John Preston', Robert de Teye, Clement Spice, Robert Rykedon', John Basset, Ellis de Bockyng' and Richard Thorp', clerk, and the heirs of Richard.

Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)

Persons: John Hend, Elizabeth Hend, William Effield, John Culpeper, John Preston, Robert de Tey, Clement Spice, Robert Rickdon, John Basset, Ellis de Bocking, Richard Thorpe

Places: London, Little Canfield, Little Chishall, Bradwell juxta Coggeshall, Coggeshall, Picots (in Great Saling), Feering, Stisted, Bocking, Cressing, Pattiswick, Great Chishall, Langport (in Lydd), Old Romney, Ringwould, Charlton, Dover
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