Discussion:
Conjectured line of descent for William de Berges / Prestwold
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r***@gmail.com
2017-05-18 15:57:30 UTC
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The following "conjectured" line of descent may be useful to those interested the Leisc. families of Berges and Prestwold which are one and the same.

This is intended to show my latest finds and areas of interest as the Berges, Prestwold , Kyme and Despenser families do exhibit some interesting interactions.

1.Anschitillus Despenser of the Burton Charter which states he donated some land at Waterfall, Staffordshire. He is also likely the Anschetil de Castello "of the Castle". alive in 1114, who land at Waterfala, and Church Stretton, Staffordshire.

The 4 sons of Anschetil Despenser.

1.1 "Hugh, son of Aschetil" in a charter of Richard, Earl of Chester dated to 1119 or before. Although no direct connection to Hugh de Berges to the Despenser family has been found to date, this Hugh does fit as a possible candidate to be the elusive Hugh de Berges who granted land to Garendon Abbey sometime between 1133 and 1154. His wife may possibly be the grand-daughter of Durand Mallet as the land he holds in Burton on Wolds at domesday appears to be the same that Hugh de Berges held of his wife. Hugh married the dau. of William de Quineburg of DD record. He is known to a brother in law of Herbert and Ralph de Quineburg, successive lords of Quineborough and the "Overlord" of Thomas Dispensator for his land in Burton, which charter must have taken after 1154, as Ralph did not succeed Herbert until after that date.
1.1.1 Anketin de Berges = Dionisia
1.1.2 Hugh de Berges II, alais Hugh de Prestwold aka: Hugh de Loughborouh , he fls. 1176, He held land at Bawre, more exactly at "Wet-Berges with part of Barrow"
1.1.1.1 Anketin ( Anketil de Berges)= Rohese. He held the manor of Prestwold, and also held the Advowson of the church, which Anketin, son of Hugh de Prestwold, in or before the year 1228, gave to the prior and convent of the Gilbertine priory of Bullington in the county of Lincoln founded by Simon de Kyme (his cousin)
1.1.1.1.1 Elias de Prestwold -Lord of the manor of Prestwold. Confirmed the gift of the church of Prestwold to the church of Bullington witnessed by Phillip de Kyme.
1.1.1.1.1.1 William de Berges - Arch. Deacon of Berks. His heir was John Putrell.
1.1.1.1.1.2 Alice = Robert de Putrell
1.1.1.1.1.2.1 John Putrell - heir of William de Berges.

1.2 William, son of Anschetil(found Lindsey Survey)= dau. of Waldin
the Ingeniator (Artificer)found as "William brother of Ivo, son of Anschetil" in the Charters of Cecily of the Honor of Skipton.Held Friesthorp, and part of Langton at- Wragby in Lindsey Survey.
William is also found as being William of Harewood, Yorks, in the charter.
1.2.1 Simon de Kyme fls. 1160 held "farm of Chester". - died c.1162.

1.3 Geoffrey Dispensator of Earl Ranulph, 3rd Earl of Chester. Gifted the chapel of Bollington, Chester to St. Mary's York.
1.3.1 Thomas Dispensator d.c.1177/8 heir of his brother Elias Dispenser who had been enfeoffed of Anrseby in 1158, Hugh de Beauchamp.

1.4 Ivo de Alspath, Constable of the Honour of Skipton fee and sometimes Constable of Coventry for Earl of Chester. seem in Charters of Cecily.

more to follow.....

Robert Spencer
r***@gmail.com
2017-05-18 17:29:17 UTC
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Correction to first post:

The 4 sons of Anschetil Despenser.

1.1 "Hugh, son of Aschetil" in a charter of Richard, Earl of Chester dated to 1119 or before. Although no direct connection to Hugh de Berges to the Despenser family has been found to date, this Hugh does fit as a possible candidate to be the elusive Hugh de Berges who granted land to Garendon Abbey sometime between 1133 and 1154. His wife may possibly be the grand-daughter of Durand Mallet as the land he holds in Burton on Wolds at domesday appears to be the same that Hugh de Berges held of his wife. Hugh married the dau. of William de Quineburg of DD record. He is known to a brother in law of Herbert and Ralph de Quineburg, successive lords of Quineborough and the
1.1.1 Hugh de Berges II, alias Hugh de Prestwold aka: Hugh de Loughborouh , he fls. 1176, He gifted extensive lands and also held land at Bawre, more exactly at "Wet-Berges with part of Barrow".
1.1.2 Anketin de Berges = Dionisia , nepohew of Ralph and Thurstan de Quineborough, and "overlord" of Thomas Dispensator for his land in Burton, which charter in question must have taken place after 1154, as Ralph did not succeed Herbert until after that date.
1.1.1.1 Anketin ( Anketil de Berges)= Rohese. He held the manor of Prestwold, and also held the Advowson of the church, which Anketin, son of Hugh de Prestwold, in or before the year 1228, gave to the prior and convent of the Gilbertine priory of Bullington in the county of Lincoln founded by Simon de Kyme (his conjectured cousin)
1.1.1.1.1 Elias de Prestwold -Lord of the manor of Prestwold. Confirmed the gift of the church of Prestwold to the church of Bullington witnessed by Phillip de Kyme.
1.1.1.1.1.1 William de Berges - Arch. Deacon of Berks. His heir was John Putrell.
1.1.1.1.1.2 Alice = Robert de Putrell
1.1.1.1.1.2.1 John Putrell - heir of William de Berges.

1.2 William, son of Anschetil(found in Lindsey Survey)= marries dau. of Waldin
the Ingeniator (Artificer)found as "William brother of Ivo, son of Anschetil" in the Charters of Cecily of the Honor of Skipton.Held Friesthorp, and part of Langton at- Wragby in Lindsey Survey.
William is also found as being William of Harewood, Yorks, in the charter.
1.2.1 Simon de Kyme fls. 1160 held "farm of Chester". - died c.1162.

1.3 Geoffrey, Dispensator of Earl Ranulph, 3rd Earl of Chester. Gifted the chapel of Bollington, Chester to St. Mary's York.
1.3.1 Thomas Dispensator d.c.1177/8 heir of his brother Elias Dispenser who had been enfeoffed of Anrseby in 1158, Hugh de Beauchamp.

1.4 Ivo de Alspath, Constable of the Honour of Skipton fee and sometimes Constable of Coventry for Earl of Chester. seem in Charters of Cecily.

more to follow.....

Robert Spencer
John Watson
2017-05-19 07:39:02 UTC
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Post by r***@gmail.com
The following "conjectured" line of descent may be useful to those interested the Leisc. families of Berges and Prestwold which are one and the same.
This is intended to show my latest finds and areas of interest as the Berges, Prestwold , Kyme and Despenser families do exhibit some interesting interactions.
1.Anschitillus Despenser of the Burton Charter which states he donated some land at Waterfall, Staffordshire. He is also likely the Anschetil de Castello "of the Castle". alive in 1114, who land at Waterfala, and Church Stretton, Staffordshire.
The 4 sons of Anschetil Despenser.
1.1 "Hugh, son of Aschetil" in a charter of Richard, Earl of Chester dated to 1119 or before. Although no direct connection to Hugh de Berges to the Despenser family has been found to date, this Hugh does fit as a possible candidate to be the elusive Hugh de Berges who granted land to Garendon Abbey sometime between 1133 and 1154. His wife may possibly be the grand-daughter of Durand Mallet as the land he holds in Burton on Wolds at domesday appears to be the same that Hugh de Berges held of his wife. Hugh married the dau. of William de Quineburg of DD record. He is known to a brother in law of Herbert and Ralph de Quineburg, successive lords of Quineborough and the "Overlord" of Thomas Dispensator for his land in Burton, which charter must have taken after 1154, as Ralph did not succeed Herbert until after that date. <snip>
Dear Robert,

As you rightly point out, there is no evidence at all that Hugh de Berges had any connection with the family of Despenser. There is also no evidence at all that Hugh de Berges and Hugh son of Ansketil were the same person, so I am not sure that "conjectured" is the correct word for this descent. Fantastic may be a better description.

If we look at the very scanty contemporary evidence for the early Despensers, the only record for Ansketil occurs in a survey of the properties held by Burton abbey, Staffordshire, compiled about 1126 [1]. The following land is listed amongst the abbey's possessions: "In Waterfala sunt ij bouate terre quas dedit nobis Aschetillus dispensator quietas & solutas ab omni seruicio & posuit super altare per unum cultellum, & hoc idem concesit in capitulo Galfridus filius eius & recepti sunt ipsi & vxor eiusdem Aschetilli defuncta in communione fraterne societatis & oracionum & beneficiorum, etc." [2].

Ansketil Despenser died before the date of this survey and his gift of 2 bovates of land in Waterfall was confirmed by his son Geoffrey and his wife who were accepted into the fraternity of the abbey. This strongly suggests that Geoffrey was the eldest son.

Geoffrey certainly had a brother named Ivo (de Alspath). Between 1145 and 1147, "Gaufrido Disp[ensator] and Iuone fratri suo," were witnesses to a grant by Ranulf II earl of Chester to Robert earl of Leicester [3]. Between 1155 and 1167, Ivo de Hallespad' [Alspath] and Geoffrey 'dispensario' his brother witnessed a charter of Robert son of earl Robert of Leicester to the abbey of Cumba [4].

There is no other contemporary evidence that Geoffrey Despenser had any other brothers, although there is a possibility that he had a sister. The charter of Ivo de Alspath granting the church of Alspath to the abbey of Coventry was witnessed by Robert and Ranulf [Rondulpho] his nephews [5].

After 1161, Thomas Despenser, son and heir of Geoffrey Despencer granted and confirmed to Garendon abbey, 10 bovates of land in Burton with the consent of his overlord for this land, Ansketil de Berges. "x bovatas terre, cum omnibus pertinentiis suis, in campo de Burtona, concessu Asketilli de Berges domini mei de eadem terra" [6]. The fact that Thomas Despenser was holding this land in Burton of Ansketil de Berges is not proof of any relationship betwen them other than that of landlord and tenant. It certainly does not justify your conjectured genealogy.

As for Hugh son of Ansketil. He witnessed a charter of Ranulf de Gernon, Earl of Chester (not Richard, Earl of Chester) which Barraclough dated between 1130 and 1140 [7]. He may be the same person as Hugh son of Ansketil who accounted for his father's lands in Essex in the pipe roll of 1130 [8].

Regards,

John

1. John Horace Round, The Burton Abbey Surveys, English Historical Review, 20 (1905), 275-289.
2. C. G. O Bridgeman, ed., "The Burton Abbey Twelfth Century Surveys," Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Third Series 1915 (1918), 225.
3. Report on the Manuscripts of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq., vol. 1, Historical Manuscripts Commission (London, 1928), 67.
4. Shakespeare Centre Library and Archive, Gregory of Stivichall, DR10/192.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/3e2191de-6b47-4c4d-8b99-c7da14930106
5. William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 3, 194: Monastery of Coventry, No. XIII.
6. John Nichols, The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester, vol. 3, Part 2, (1804), 817.
7. Geoffrey Barraclough, ed., The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, c. 1071-1237, Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, 126 (1988), 50, no. 35.
8. Joseph Hunter, ed., Magnum Rotulum Scaccarii vel Magnum Rotulum Pipæ de Anno Tricesimo-primo Regni Henrici Primi, Record Commission (1833), 59.
https://archive.org/stream/magnumrotulumsc01huntgoog#page/n97/mode/1up
r***@gmail.com
2017-05-19 21:31:27 UTC
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Dear John, normally I would agree with you about conjecturing, however the Despsner pedigree has been so difficult for everyone who have tried to pin it down, even in 2003/2004 John Ravilous even coined this pedigree as the "Holy Grail of Genealogy" for good reason. It's difficult, and tantalizing little info or records to go on, yet they rose to prominance. This genealogy requires a different approach and if I have to post conjectured lines which to me make perfect sense then that's what I will, in the hope someone sees something that stikes a memory or connection to advance this pedigree.

By the way, you say only two sons have been identified Geoffrey and ivo, that is not an accurate statement. William is named with Ivo in the charters of Cecily , Lady of Skipton. Ivo was the Constable of the Skipton fee and sometime Constable of the Castle of Coventry.

John, you mentioned that two nephew's of Ivo de Alspath have been identified, perhaps suggestiing that Anschetil Dispenser had an otherwise unknown dau.
I'm just wondering if you have ever shared this information before this post?

Thank you
Robert
taf
2017-05-19 21:53:30 UTC
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Dear John, normally I would agree with you about conjecturing, however the
Despsner pedigree has been so difficult for everyone who have tried to pin
it down, even in 2003/2004 John Ravilous even coined this pedigree as the
"Holy Grail of Genealogy" for good reason. It's difficult, and tantalizing
little info or records to go on, yet they rose to prominance. This genealogy
requires a different approach and if I have to post conjectured lines which
to me make perfect sense then that's what I will, in the hope someone sees
something that stikes a memory or connection to advance this pedigree.
Over-the-top rhetoric aside, there is nothing special about this line, and no requirement for a different approach. Conjecture is part of the standard approach, but it should not be made on a whim and it should be clearly and explicitly marked and explained as such (and I mean the specific connections, not just a label at the top calling the whole tree conjectural without indicating what is and what isn't). Such conjectures tend to take on a life of their own, even when well marked, so one should exercise extreme care in presenting them, and absolutely should make it abundantly what is deduction and what is speculation and what is outright guesswork.

taf
Peter Stewart
2017-05-19 22:44:45 UTC
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Dear John, normally I would agree with you about conjecturing, however the
Despsner pedigree has been so difficult for everyone who have tried to pin
it down, even in 2003/2004 John Ravilous even coined this pedigree as the
"Holy Grail of Genealogy" for good reason. It's difficult, and tantalizing
little info or records to go on, yet they rose to prominance. This genealogy
requires a different approach and if I have to post conjectured lines which
to me make perfect sense then that's what I will, in the hope someone sees
something that stikes a memory or connection to advance this pedigree.
Over-the-top rhetoric aside, there is nothing special about this line, and no requirement for a different approach. Conjecture is part of the standard approach, but it should not be made on a whim and it should be clearly and explicitly marked and explained as such (and I mean the specific connections, not just a label at the top calling the whole tree conjectural without indicating what is and what isn't). Such conjectures tend to take on a life of their own, even when well marked, so one should exercise extreme care in presenting them, and absolutely should make it abundantly what is deduction and what is speculation and what is outright guesswork.
Well said - there is no value at all in genealogical conjecture that
isn't backed up by reasoning from evidence.

As for the over-the-top rhetoric about the "Holy Grail", this is another
example of a blinkered British-first-and-foremost approach to medieval
genealogy. In terms of the depth and breadth of interest, or
consequence, the Despencer pedigree isn't even remotely close to DFA
(and as someone who doesn't pursue either of these, or the lurid concept
of a "Holy Grail" of research in the first place, I am not insisting on
any relative-favourite topic).

Peter Stewart
r***@gmail.com
2017-05-19 23:29:30 UTC
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According to:
Prestwold and its Hamlets
in Medieval Times By George F. Farnham, F.S.A.

The family of de Berges is the same as Prestwold.

The family who bore the name " of Prestwold " appear to have held the manor of Prestwold in the latter part at latest of the twelfth century. They bore for their
arms—Sable, a chevron Or, fretty Gules, between three garbs
Argent

click here to view: its the 2nd version:

https://coadb.com/surnames/prestwold-arms.html

Robert
Peter Howarth
2017-05-20 05:09:55 UTC
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Prestwold and its Hamlets
in Medieval Times By George F. Farnham, F.S.A.
The family of de Berges is the same as Prestwold.
The family who bore the name " of Prestwold " appear to have held the manor of Prestwold in the latter part at latest of the twelfth century. They bore for their
arms—Sable, a chevron Or, fretty Gules, between three garbs
Argent
https://coadb.com/surnames/prestwold-arms.html
Robert
Just as I had hoped that progress had been made on applying the same rules of evidence to mediaeval heraldry as are used in other branches of history including genealogy, we now seem to be going backwards again.

With only a handful of exceptions, there is no evidence of heraldry in England during the twelfth century except amongst some, but not all, of the rank of earl.

There is no evidence of the quoted arms before the Ashmolean Roll c.1334 and those rolls that are based on that collection.

And please, please, please, do not use that website again to discover anything. They know even less about mediaeval heraldry than you do, and only want to fleece gullible members of the public.

Peter Howarth
John Watson
2017-05-20 11:08:33 UTC
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Dear John, normally I would agree with you about conjecturing, however the Despsner pedigree has been so difficult for everyone who have tried to pin it down, even in 2003/2004 John Ravilous even coined this pedigree as the "Holy Grail of Genealogy" for good reason. It's difficult, and tantalizing little info or records to go on, yet they rose to prominance. This genealogy requires a different approach and if I have to post conjectured lines which to me make perfect sense then that's what I will, in the hope someone sees something that stikes a memory or connection to advance this pedigree.
By the way, you say only two sons have been identified Geoffrey and ivo, that is not an accurate statement. William is named with Ivo in the charters of Cecily , Lady of Skipton. Ivo was the Constable of the Skipton fee and sometime Constable of the Castle of Coventry.
John, you mentioned that two nephew's of Ivo de Alspath have been identified, perhaps suggestiing that Anschetil Dispenser had an otherwise unknown dau.
I'm just wondering if you have ever shared this information before this post?
Thank you
Robert
Dear Robert,

Your suggestion that John Ravilious called the Despenser pedigree "the Holy Grail of Genealogy," seems a bit far fetched unless he was joking. Do you have a link for this, as I can't find anything in the archives. In my post of June 2014, I gave the bare bones of the Despenser pedigree - have I discovered the Holy Grail? - how exciting.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2014-06/1402347309

I said that Ivo de Alspath had two nephews who witnessed his charter to Coventry and may have had a sister. Of course they could be sons of a sister, or two sisters, or a brother, or two brothers, or his wife's brothers or sisters, or even his grandsons as the word "nepos" was sometimes used for grandsons. I have no great interest in finding out - maybe you could do some research. He certainly had a daughter, because his grandson James le Bret confirmed his gift to Coventry.
https://books.google.com/books?id=r71LN35ZEG4C&pg=PA194

Can you give a source for your claim that Ivo had a brother called William?

Regards,

John

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