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Baron Robert de Vere to Robert Abell
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h***@gmail.com
2017-06-06 14:20:36 UTC
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Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to Robert Abell. I found all his other Barons' descents with the help of the Royal Ancestry Volumes, but I think my brain is fried. I am getting ready to do a pedigree chart and an ahnentafel report for my son-in-law, plus descendancy charts for his Charlemagne, William Marshal (coolest ancestor ever), and Barons.

Thank you and I appreciate this group and all of the great information.

Valerie
h***@gmail.com
2017-06-06 15:42:15 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to Robert Abell. I found all his other Barons' descents with the help of the Royal Ancestry Volumes, but I think my brain is fried. I am getting ready to do a pedigree chart and an ahnentafel report for my son-in-law, plus descendancy charts for his Charlemagne, William Marshal (coolest ancestor ever), and Barons.
Thank you and I appreciate this group and all of the great information.
Valerie
Also printing a few royal descents through Edward I and Henry III.
taf
2017-06-06 23:41:17 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to
Robert Abell.
The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here accept it wholeheartedly, even vehemently:

1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford
2. Hugh de Vere, Earl
3. Robert de Vere, Earl
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
........
6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son
7. John de Warren
8. Nicholas de Warren
9. Lawrence de Warren
10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford
11. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover
13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover
14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield
15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton
16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell
17. Robert Abell

Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it).

4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill
9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley
10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage
11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring

There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill.

taf
Paulo Canedo
2017-06-07 18:15:44 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by h***@gmail.com
Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to
Robert Abell.
1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford
2. Hugh de Vere, Earl
3. Robert de Vere, Earl
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
........
6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son
7. John de Warren
8. Nicholas de Warren
9. Lawrence de Warren
10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford
11. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover
13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover
14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield
15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton
16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell
17. Robert Abell
Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it).
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill
9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley
10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage
11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring
There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill.
taf
In a post of some years ago the genealogical medieval researcher Douglas Richardson says
In his will
dated 1347, he specifically names a son, Edward, who people have
claimed was the ancestor of the Warren family of Poynton.
That Edward is indeed the son of John, 8th Earl and Maud de Nerford,
as well as the ancestor of the Poynton family is proved by several
records. In 1323, Blomefield reports that Sir Ralph de Skeyton
conveyed the reversion of the manors of Booton and Skeyton, Norfolk to
Maud de Nerford and her sons, Ralph and Edward. Maud subsequently
received a release from Sir Ralph de Skeyton's sister and heir, Alice
Hauteyn, in 1345. Maud died soon afterwards as she was reported to be
deceased later that year. At this point, the manors of Booton and
Skeyton, Norfolk fell to her son, Edward de Warenne, in accordance
with the settlement of 1323.

I personally think this is convincing enough.
taf
2017-06-07 20:38:25 UTC
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Post by Paulo Canedo
Post by taf
The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains
one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here
5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
........
6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son
In a post of some years ago the genealogical medieval researcher Douglas Richardson says
In his will
dated 1347, he specifically names a son, Edward, who people have
claimed was the ancestor of the Warren family of Poynton.
That Edward is indeed the son of John, 8th Earl and Maud de Nerford,
as well as the ancestor of the Poynton family is proved by several
records. In 1323, Blomefield reports that Sir Ralph de Skeyton
conveyed the reversion of the manors of Booton and Skeyton, Norfolk to
Maud de Nerford and her sons, Ralph and Edward. Maud subsequently
received a release from Sir Ralph de Skeyton's sister and heir, Alice
Hauteyn, in 1345. Maud died soon afterwards as she was reported to be
deceased later that year. At this point, the manors of Booton and
Skeyton, Norfolk fell to her son, Edward de Warenne, in accordance
with the settlement of 1323.
I personally think this is convincing enough.
Good for you. Unfortunately, it is equally consistent with an alternative explanation. Please note that none of the supposed proof actually links Edward Warren of Poynton to Earl John - it links him to Maud de Nerford, whom the researcher in question insists is identical to the mistress of Earl John, without any proof. In an alternative explanation of these records, another researcher has suggested that the Maud de Nerford who received this grant was a different woman entirely, formerly wife of a member of a junior line of the Warennes, separate from the earls since before the Plantagenet marriage.

Given that both reconstructions make Edward son of Maud de Nerford (different women with that name), one cannot distinguish between the two models by proving that Edward was son of Maud de Nerford - evidence must be consistent with one and not the other reconstuction in order to be of value in addressing the question.

taf
John Higgins
2017-06-08 01:02:34 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by Paulo Canedo
Post by taf
The following line is found on Leo's site. However, it contains
one generation that I am not convinced of, though others here
5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
........
6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son
In a post of some years ago the genealogical medieval researcher Douglas
Richardson says
In his will
dated 1347, he specifically names a son, Edward, who people have
claimed was the ancestor of the Warren family of Poynton.
That Edward is indeed the son of John, 8th Earl and Maud de Nerford,
as well as the ancestor of the Poynton family is proved by several
records. In 1323, Blomefield reports that Sir Ralph de Skeyton
conveyed the reversion of the manors of Booton and Skeyton, Norfolk to
Maud de Nerford and her sons, Ralph and Edward. Maud subsequently
received a release from Sir Ralph de Skeyton's sister and heir, Alice
Hauteyn, in 1345. Maud died soon afterwards as she was reported to be
deceased later that year. At this point, the manors of Booton and
Skeyton, Norfolk fell to her son, Edward de Warenne, in accordance
with the settlement of 1323.
I personally think this is convincing enough.
Good for you. Unfortunately, it is equally consistent with an alternative explanation. Please note that none of the supposed proof actually links Edward Warren of Poynton to Earl John - it links him to Maud de Nerford, whom the researcher in question insists is identical to the mistress of Earl John, without any proof. In an alternative explanation of these records, another researcher has suggested that the Maud de Nerford who received this grant was a different woman entirely, formerly wife of a member of a junior line of the Warennes, separate from the earls since before the Plantagenet marriage.
Given that both reconstructions make Edward son of Maud de Nerford (different women with that name), one cannot distinguish between the two models by proving that Edward was son of Maud de Nerford - evidence must be consistent with one and not the other reconstuction in order to be of value in addressing the question.
taf
You described this "alternative reconstruction" regrading Maud do neford more fully back in Oct. 2010 as follows:

"The alternative reconstruction argues that there were two Maud de
Nerfords (or Mauds de Nerford). One was the mistress of Earl John.
The other was daughter and coheiress of Richard de Skegton (Skeyton)
and widow of a Nerford, wife of an Edward de Warenne who had sons
Edward and Ralph, and the account of this argument I see suggests
documents that indicate Edward the younger inherited from his father -
again, problematic were he not legitimate."

No source for this was given at that time. What is the source for this reconstruction and where/when has it been published?
h***@gmail.com
2017-06-10 04:12:00 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by h***@gmail.com
Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to
Robert Abell.
1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford
2. Hugh de Vere, Earl
3. Robert de Vere, Earl
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
........
6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son
7. John de Warren
8. Nicholas de Warren
9. Lawrence de Warren
10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford
11. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover
13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover
14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield
15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton
16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell
17. Robert Abell
Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it).
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill
9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley
10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage
11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring
There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill.
taf
Thank you - your post was extremely helpful. I used the second line - did 5. Alice de Warenne m. Edmund Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel?
h***@gmail.com
2017-06-10 04:32:29 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by h***@gmail.com
Please help with a good descent from Magna Carta Baron Robert de Vere to
Robert Abell.
1. Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford
2. Hugh de Vere, Earl
3. Robert de Vere, Earl
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
........
6. Edward de Warren of Poynton, said to be his illegitimate son
7. John de Warren
8. Nicholas de Warren
9. Lawrence de Warren
10. Margery de Warren m. John Honford
11. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring of Over Peover
13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover
14. Margaret Mainwaring m. Arthur Mainwaring of Ightfield
15. Mary Mainwaring m. Richard Cotton
16. Frances Cotton m. George Abell
17. Robert Abell
Fortunately, there is a bypass (but already having typed out the other, I will leave it).
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne
5. Alice de Warenne m. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
6. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
7. Richard Fitz Alan, Earl
8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan m. Robert Goushill
9. Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley
10. Katherine Stanley m. John Savage
11. Margaret Savage m. John Honford
12. Katherine Honford m. John Mainwaring
There may be other descents - I seem to recall that Abell had multiple lines of descent from Joan Goushill.
taf
Thank you - your posts were extremely helpful - I used this line of descent:
1. Robert de Vere, Knt. = Isabel de Bolebec
2. Hugh de Vere, Knt. = Hawise de Quincy
3. Robert de Vere, Knt. = Alice de Sanford
4. Joan de Vere = William de Warenne, Knt.
5. Alice de Warenne = Edmund Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
6. Richard Fitz Alan, Knt., Earl of Arundel = Eleanor of Lancaster
7. Richard Fitz Alan, K.G., Earl of Arundel = Elizabeth de Bohun
8. Elizabeth Fitz Alan = Robert Goushill, Knt.
9. Joan Goushill = Thomas Stanley, K.G.
10. Katherine Stanley = John Savage, K.G.
11. Margaret Savage = John Honford, Esq.
12. Katherine Honford = John Mainwaring, Knt. of Over Peover
13. Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover = Elizabeth Brereton
14. Margaret Mainwaring = Arthur Mainwaring, Knt., of Ightfield
15. Mary Mainwaring = Richard Cotton, Esq.
16. Frances Cotton = George Abell, Gent.
17. Robert Abell, Colonial Immigrant = Joanna

I appreciate all of your posts.
Valerie

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