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European nobility and arab mixing
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n***@gmail.com
2018-04-10 22:27:43 UTC
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Have European nobility and arab nobility or arab common folk ever married in medevial times in Spain or italy.
taf
2018-04-11 00:36:17 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Have European nobility and arab nobility or arab common folk ever married in medevial times in Spain or italy.
Married? Yes (more or less depending on your definition of 'marriage'). Abd ar-Rahman III was only 1/4 Arab, 3/4 native Iberian.

taf
n***@gmail.com
2018-04-11 06:40:15 UTC
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Who did he marry?also I mean marriage as in for either love or to make alliances with the enemy.
taf
2018-04-11 14:11:20 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Who did he marry?also I mean marriage as in for either love or to make
alliances with the enemy.
The problem is that it is not as simple as this for an Arab caliph. They would have women ranging from the high-status sisters/daughters of the Arab elite to those brought in through negotiated alliance (often forced as a sign of subjugation) to outright captives/slaves in a harem that could have numbered in the hundreds, and any of them could have been the mother of a child recognized by the father. These are often referred to as 'wives' in western sources, but they occupied a spectrum of statuses, some clearly wives, some what westerners would otherwise call concubines and slaves, many somewhere in between.

A (very quick) tool around the internet turns up two such women for Abd ar-Rahman. One was Fatima, daughter of emir Al-Mudir, who was elder brother of Abd ar-Rahman's grandfather, so clearly a high-status wife. The other is a woman known only as Marjan, a 'favorite'.

We usually only learn about these in Al-Andalus sources when there is a point to be made - usually to explain why a boy was a favored son of his father (as son of a high-status wife or a beloved concubine), in a political context demonstrating power (the count of Castile was forced to give his daughter to Al-Mansur), or to explain some characteristic of the child (for example, why Abd ar-Rahman was blonde and blue eyed). In a christian setting, when you know who a king's wife was, there is a presumption that she was mother of the 'legitimate' children born during that period. This does not apply in a Muslim setting, because there wasn't just one 'wife' at any given time, and just as there were many statuses among the women, and no clear distinction between legitimate and illegitimate.

You gave this thread a name about 'mixing', which is easier to address sometimes than marriage. The sole son born to Alfonso VI (at least that we know of, there were probably some infant deaths not recorded) was born to a woman called 'Sayyidah' (basically 'Lady', which came to be interpreted as her name and rendered as Zayda by the Christian writers). Though her parentage is uncertain, she was likely Arab. Though the precise details escape me now, the Emir of Majorca converted and his family took entirely Christian name forms, and his children intermarried with the Christian nobility.

There were many intermarriages within the second-tier elite of the Caliphate, some of whom were of native Iberian descent and some Berber or lower-class Arabs, and though a specific one matching your description does not come immediately to mind, it seems a near certainty that at some point on the Upper March a Banu Tujibi (Arab) 'married' a Bint Qasi or Bint al-Tawil (both Muwalid - native Iberian).

taf
taf
2018-04-12 00:34:59 UTC
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Post by taf
You gave this thread a name about 'mixing', which is easier to address
sometimes than marriage. The sole son born to Alfonso VI (at least
that we know of, there were probably some infant deaths not recorded)
was born to a woman called 'Sayyidah' (basically 'Lady', which came to
be interpreted as her name and rendered as Zayda by the Christian
writers). Though her parentage is uncertain, she was likely Arab.
Speaking of this, a week ago The Economist dabbled in political-religious genealogy:

Is the caliph a queen? Muslims consider Queen Elizabeth’s ties to the Prophet Muhammad

"The claim, first made many years ago, is gathering renewed interest in the Middle East. Why is not clear, but in March a Moroccan newspaper called Al-Ousboue traced the queen’s lineage back 43 generations. Her bloodline runs through the Earl of Cambridge, in the 14th century, across medieval Muslim Spain, to Fatima, the Prophet’s daughter. Her link to Muhammad has previously been verified by Ali Gomaa, the former grand mufti of Egypt, and Burke’s Peerage, a British authority on royal pedigrees."

"Much hinges on a Muslim princess called Zaida, who fled a Berber assault on her home town of Seville in the 11th century and wound up in the Christian court of Alfonso VI of Castille. She changed her name to Isabella, converted to Christianity and bore Alfonso a son, Sancho, one of whose descendants later married the Earl of Cambridge. But Zaida’s own origins are debatable. Some make her the daughter of Muatamid bin Abbad, a wine-drinking caliph descended from the Prophet. Others say she married into his family."

https://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21739990-reaction-queens-purported-muslim-extraction-has-been-varied-arab

The line in question is bogus. First, it makes a sloppy mistake in saying that the queen descends from Alfonso's son Sancho, born to Zaida. All other things aside, this is patently ridiculous, since Sancho died in his teens with no known descendants. The line in question runs through Sancha, Alfonso's daughter, but the problems there are two-fold. First, Sancha was not necessarily daughter of Zaida (she was daughter of queen Isabella, whom the primary record fails to identify with Zaida) and second, the descent of 'the wife of the Earl of Cambridge' (that is, Isabella of Castile, wife of Edmund of Langley, Duke of York) was a well-intended but false reconstruction by a 17th/18th Iberian antiquarian, proven false decades ago. Of Alfonso's women, only Jimena Muñoz and Constance of Burgundy are known to be ancestors of Isabella of Castile. The queen does descend from Elvira, Sancha's full sister, but htis is through an Italian line that leads to the wife of Edward IV. And this doesn't even begin to address the likelihood that the line connecting Muatamid bin Abbad to Muhammad is likely a politically-motivated forgery, something the former grand mufti of Egypt would be hesitant to consider, and Burke's Peerage would be completely incompetent to evaluate. A bad effort, all the way around.

taf
n***@gmail.com
2018-04-12 04:06:10 UTC
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I've seen article around about the queens relationship to spain and Muhammad which I always thought were far fetched. Also do you have any knowledge about any medieval Italian dukes or kings marrying arab or Syrian women. Specifically athanasius duke of naples, gregorius 3rd duke of naples, and sergius 1st duke of naples. Sergius married drusa? Who was gregorius and athanasius mother and father? im confused about the parentage they are Greek I think what does drusa mean?
taf
2018-04-12 06:34:05 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
I've seen article around about the queens relationship to spain and
Muhammad which I always thought were far fetched.
Just to be clear, the specific line claimed is demonstrably false. The alternative Spain-via-Italy line is not. It requires an extremely favorable view of the evidence at two different points, and acceptance of an entirely undocumented tradition at another (in a context where there is known to be a high rate of forgery), and is almost certainly wrong but can't be absolutely proven to be so. But in that 'almost' there is by definition a remote possibility, and no possibility is too remote for those intent on there being such a descent to pin their hopes on.
Post by n***@gmail.com
Also do you have any knowledge about any medieval Italian dukes
or kings marrying arab or Syrian women.
No - Iberia is my area of expertise (if that is what you call it) - I know next to nothing about Italy.
Post by n***@gmail.com
Specifically athanasius duke of naples, gregorius 3rd duke of
naples, and sergius 1st duke of naples. Sergius married drusa?
Who was gregorius and athanasius mother and father? im confused
about the parentage they are Greek I think what does drusa mean?
If where you are going with this is that drusa was a Syrian Druze, you are barking up the wrong tree. These Dukes date from the 9th century, while the Druze owe their name to Muhammad bin Ismail Nashtakin ad-Darazī, fl. 1015-1018.

Drusa was an old Roman name, the feminine form of Drusus - Livia Drusa was mother of Cato the younger, while the daughter of her adopted nephew was Livia Drusa (als. Drusilla), wife of Augustus and ancestress of Tiberius, Claudius, Caligula and Nero.

However, it is not clear to me that the 9th century Drosu represents the same name as 1st century BC/AD Drusa.

taf
n***@gmail.com
2018-04-22 01:34:56 UTC
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Thanks, who was munio Gomez of the banu Gomez? He was also called any abu al mundhir who were the banu Gomez family? Did they mix with moors or Arabs? Thanks
taf
2018-04-22 06:40:12 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Thanks, who was munio Gomez of the banu Gomez? He was also called any abu al mundhir who were the banu Gomez family? Did they mix with moors or Arabs? Thanks
Just to be precise, this packs several hypotheses together in framing the question. There was a nobleman known as Abolmondar (usually interpreted as Abu al-Mudhir) who was father of a count Diego. One (though not the only) popular solution is to identify this count Diego with Diego Muñoz, the first unambiguous member of the Banu Gómez. (The other common hypothesis is that Abolmondar was the Count of Castile, father of count Diego Rodríguez). His father is not directly attested, and there are two main theories regarding his identity, though the more popular one (and more likely one) identifies him with a Munio Gómez who made some grants to the same religious house as the later Banu Gómez patronized. This would also explain the name Banu Gómez, the descendants of Gómez, implying there was an earlier man named Gómez in their ancestry that would be supplied by this otherwise unknown Gómez reflected in the patronymic of Munio Gómez.

So, we have a local nobleman named Munio Gómez, most likely founder of the Banu Gómez, perhaps the same as the Abolmondar. Who were the Banu Gómez? they were a local dynasty in eastern Léon who first rose to prominence in the chaos of the succession struggles of the late 10th and early 11th century, essentially, briefly, making themselves rulers of the kingdom for as long as it took the king to reorganize his support and run them back out of the capitol, and who again produced the premier nobleman in the kingdom during the reign of Alfonso VI. Why were they called the Banu Gómez? Because this is how Arab sources refer to families, as descendants of the first person of that family who came to their notice. In this case, so the theory goes, this was Gómez, the otherwise unknown father of Munio Gómez (though I would suggest they need not have known the father - if he was Munio ibn Gómez, then his descendants could have been known as Banu Gómez simply based on his patronymic.)

Why was the man known as Abolmuodar called by this nickname? no answer is provided by the primary record. One recent set of speculation suggests that Munio Gómez spent time as a captive or hostage or envoy at the court at Córdoba. It is a little curious that the Banu Gómez were recognized by a patronymic family name, almost exclusively among the marcher lords, and this has suggested a greater degree of contact best explained by a captive/hostage/ambassador situation. Such an explanation kills two avians with one projectile, (explaining both the anomalous familiarity with the family and the atypical Arab nickname) but is entirely speculative.

Now, let's take this all as given for the purposes of addressing the question you really care about. Did they mix with Arabs. It is possible, but there isn't the slightest evidence this was the case, and reason to think otherwise. Arabs guarded their daughters closely. Both religion and culture prohibited them from giving their daughters to other groups - this includes the 'lesser' components of their own ruling nobilities. Berber and Muwalid (native Iberians) mixed, but only rarely did Arabs allow their daughters to marry either, and to marry out of the religion would have been completely out of the question. It was common for the Emirs to take Christian slaves to their beds, and to extort the daughters from their Christian neighbors, but there only record of an Arab 'daughter' joining with a Christian king is Zaida, who was forced to flee when her father-in-law's dynasty was overrun by the Berber Almoravids. As some indication of how unusual this was, a Muslim legal scholar was when asked whether the most important duty was to remain in Iberia and fight the Christians or to look after one's family by fleeing, he responded that the risk of having ones females become the wives of the infidel, as happened with the daughter-in-law of the emir of Seville, was anathema to Islam and it is better to flee Iberia than see this happen He was writing 400 years! later and they were still aghast at this one documented example of an Arab woman marrying a Christian king. And let me add that the only (other ?) case known of a Muslim daughter (in this case of a native dynasty) marrying a Christian king likewise occurred when her dynasty was extirpated and she was forced to flee.

Did they mix with Moors? Certainly possible but there isn't the slightest evidence this was the case. The fact that they were called Banu Gómez just means they were a known entity, like the Banu Sancho, the Banu Alfons, the Banu Velasco and the Banu Muniadona. That one of them acquired an Arab nickname (if he did) is more atypical, but there is no reason to think it happened due to 'mixing'.

taf
n***@gmail.com
2018-04-22 13:44:37 UTC
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Thanks that's informative.
Vizoi Vizois
2018-04-30 19:32:53 UTC
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An example I know : During the visit of the Generalife of Granada I knew about a family "Granada-Venegas". This Christian noble family were descendants of Cid Hiaya el-Nayyar (d.1506), cousin of Boabdil, brother-in-law of El-Zagal. I think he was son of Abul Celin and grd-son of the Nasrid Yusuf IV (d.1432).
Possibly a true example.
His Christian name : Pedro de Granada
wife : Ceti Meriem (Christian name: María Venegas)

But TAF wrote :
And let me add that the only (other ?) case known of a Muslim daughter (in this case of a native dynasty) marrying a Christian king likewise occurred when her dynasty was extirpated and she was forced to flee.
Vizoi Vizois
2018-04-30 19:43:33 UTC
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And the "Granada-Venegas" family?
This noble Christian family were descendants of Cid Hiaya el-Nayyar (d.1506), cousin of Boabdil. I think he was the son of Aboul Celin and grd-son of the Nasrid Yusuf IV (d.1432).

His Christian name: Pedro de Granada
wife: Ceti Meriem (Christian name: María Venegas)
Perhaps a true example?


But TAF wrote: "And let me add that the only (other?) Known case of a Muslim girl (in this case, of a native dynasty) to marry a Christian king occurred even when her dynasty was extirpated and she been forced to flee."
taf
2018-04-30 20:17:25 UTC
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Post by Vizoi Vizois
And the "Granada-Venegas" family?
This noble Christian family were descendants of Cid Hiaya el-Nayyar
(d.1506), cousin of Boabdil. I think he was the son of Aboul Celin
and grd-son of the Nasrid Yusuf IV (d.1432).
His Christian name: Pedro de Granada
wife: Ceti Meriem (Christian name: María Venegas)
Perhaps a true example?
But TAF wrote: "And let me add that the only (other?) Known case of a
Muslim girl (in this case, of a native dynasty) to marry a Christian
king occurred even when her dynasty was extirpated and she been forced
to flee."
I tried to be very precise in my phrasing - I am referring to there being one documented case of a _king_ of any of the Christian states on the peninsula marrying a woman who was born to a Muslim family: Urraca bint Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Qasi marrying Fruela II of Leon. There is a second case that has been argued circumstantially, Zaida marrying Alfonso VI. There have been at least three others suggested based on dubious onomastics, but they are just wild or naive guesses.

This formulation does not include the scenario you describe because the family in question did not, while still Muslim, produce a daughter who then married a king. I have heard of the case you mention being claimed, but it is later than the period I am most familiar with, and I have not looked into it. It fits with a pattern that has been well-documented elsewhere, with a high-status Muslim converting, his family adopting Christian names and joining the regional nobility.

That being said, one does have to be careful with such claims. Just as there are known examples, there are also known inventions. The pendulum has swung repeatedly back and forth, between such connections being desirable and being anathema, so the surviving documentation and how contemporary the claim is turns out to be critical, as always.

taf
Vizoi Vizois
2018-04-30 21:08:09 UTC
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It's true. Thank you very much for this Urraca bint Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Qasi.

All kind of scenarii including Arab or Berbere or Mullawad nobility giving women to noble christian families or Kings are very very rare.

The "moorish" mistress of king Afonso III of Portugal (sometimes called "Madragana") was probably muslim (in the beginning). Seriously we know nothing about her.

C.P.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-04-30 21:12:19 UTC
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Post by Vizoi Vizois
It's true. Thank you very much for this Urraca bint Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Qasi.
All kind of scenarii including Arab or Berbere or Mullawad nobility giving women to noble christian families or Kings are very very rare.
The "moorish" mistress of king Afonso III of Portugal (sometimes called "Madragana") was probably muslim (in the beginning). Seriously we know nothing about her.
C.P.
Madragana is belived to have been a mozarab by others.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-04-30 21:17:13 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Vizoi Vizois
It's true. Thank you very much for this Urraca bint Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Qasi.
All kind of scenarii including Arab or Berbere or Mullawad nobility giving women to noble christian families or Kings are very very rare.
The "moorish" mistress of king Afonso III of Portugal (sometimes called "Madragana") was probably muslim (in the beginning). Seriously we know nothing about her.
C.P.
Madragana is belived to have been a mozarab by others.
Also, some believe she was descended from a branch of the jewish exilarchs, the Ibn Yahya family.
taf
2018-04-30 22:01:44 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Vizoi Vizois
The "moorish" mistress of king Afonso III of Portugal (sometimes
called "Madragana") was probably muslim (in the beginning).
Seriously we know nothing about her.
Madragana is belived to have been a mozarab by others.
Also, some believe she was descended from a branch of the jewish
exilarchs, the Ibn Yahya family.
In other words, she pretty much a tabula rasa on whom people have placed whatever version of 'other' appealed to them, either to exoticize or taint her descendants. There is a Spanish royal mistress who receives similar treatment.

taf
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-04-30 22:22:01 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Vizoi Vizois
The "moorish" mistress of king Afonso III of Portugal (sometimes
called "Madragana") was probably muslim (in the beginning).
Seriously we know nothing about her.
Madragana is belived to have been a mozarab by others.
Also, some believe she was descended from a branch of the jewish
exilarchs, the Ibn Yahya family.
In other words, she pretty much a tabula rasa on whom people have placed whatever version of 'other' appealed to them, either to exoticize or taint her descendants. There is a Spanish royal mistress who receives similar treatment.
taf
Are you refering to Paloma? By the way, the people who believe Madragana was descended from a branch of the jewish exilarchs, the Ibn Yahya family, also believe she was a mozarab. The claim is that her greatgreatgrandfather Bakr ben Yahya was a jew who converted to christianity, this is the idea defended by several portuguese books. The alternative idea that she was a moor apparently comes from, the portuguese chronist, Duarte Nunes de Leao, in the 16th century but it was denied by, another portuguese chronist, António Caetano de Sousa, in the 18th century. It's also said by some that it's obvious from the facts she was not a moor. To me, the exilarch theory is more likely than the moor theory.
Vizoi Vizois
2018-04-30 23:18:44 UTC
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No my dear Paulo.

The information about Martim Afonso Chichorro as son of a "Moira" come from o Livro de Linhagens do Conde Dom Pedro (LL22G14).
By the "Livro do Deão" we know Martim Afonso Chichorro was an uterine brother of Urraca Afonso "irmã d'el rei dom Diniz, de gaança, que fora filha de uma moira (LD10A5)
Martim Afonso Chichorro and his sister Urraca Afonso (married 1- Pero Anes de Riba de Vizela 2- João Mendes de Briteiros) are the beginning of a lot of people.

We know nothing more and this few we know is considerable.

The exilarch theory is a loss of time and a genealogical trick without document ou evidence.

C.P.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-04-30 23:56:44 UTC
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Post by Vizoi Vizois
No my dear Paulo.
The information about Martim Afonso Chichorro as son of a "Moira" come from o Livro de Linhagens do Conde Dom Pedro (LL22G14).
By the "Livro do Deão" we know Martim Afonso Chichorro was an uterine brother of Urraca Afonso "irmã d'el rei dom Diniz, de gaança, que fora filha de uma moira (LD10A5)
Martim Afonso Chichorro and his sister Urraca Afonso (married 1- Pero Anes de Riba de Vizela 2- João Mendes de Briteiros) are the beginning of a lot of people.
We know nothing more and this few we know is considerable.
The exilarch theory is a loss of time and a genealogical trick without document ou evidence.
C.P.
Dear Vizoi, to be fair, I wouldn't call it "a loss of time". I think that's too harsh. I'm also surprised at such being mentioned in Livro de Linhagens do Conde Dom Pedro because such a reference isn't mentioned in the web and several portuguese hisorians reject such an idea.
taf
2018-05-01 05:51:50 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
I'm also surprised at such being mentioned in Livro de Linhagens do Conde
Dom Pedro because such a reference isn't mentioned in the web and several
portuguese hisorians reject such an idea.
The problem is that it seems the good Count never saw a legend of exotic ancestry he didn't like to repeat. He not only accepted both the Maragaia legend and that of the Siete Infantes, he created (or at least repeated) a complete fabrication the only intent of which was to link the two together genealogically (by inventing for the Maia founder a half-Mulsim sister who is turned into the grandmother of the Infantes). As with many such pseudo-historical writings of the late medieval period, it is almost impossible to tell on a given lineage where exactly legend ends and authentic history begins, but it is often before you get to the top of the given descent. This leaves serious Portuguese scholars very uneasy about his material.

taf
Vizoi Vizois
2018-05-01 19:10:02 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Dear Vizoi, to be fair, I wouldn't call it "a loss of time". I think that's too harsh. I'm also surprised at such being mentioned in Livro de Linhagens do Conde Dom Pedro because such a reference isn't mentioned in the web and several portuguese hisorians reject such an idea.
But Prof. Leontina Ventura (D. Afonso III, temas e debates, 2009), Prof. J.A. Pizarro Sotto Mayor (Linhagens medievais Portuguesas, Porto 1999), or Anselmo Bramcamp Freire (Brasões da sala de Sintra vol.1) don't reject. On contrary.

Not a surprise. It's simple and efficient.
The count D. Pedro knew most probably his uncle Martim Afonso and his aunt Urraca Afonso were sons of a moorish woman (One of his grandfathe's mistress).
No informations more. No details. No name. No ethnic group (Arab, Berbere, Spanish Mulladi or another ethnic group in the Ummah) or religious status (Muslim or ex-Muslim)
Only a "moira". But an exception.

Not a Mozarabe. The Mozarabes are not called "moorish" in the nobiliarios.
Not a Jew. The Jews are not called "moira" in the Nobiliarios.
Exemple : Rui Capão in the ancestry of noble medieval Taveira Family : "Rui Capom que foi judeu, e veo a esta terra com a rainha dona Orraca por seu almoxarife, e depois feze-o ela bautizar e poserom-lhe nome Rodrigo, por sobrenome Rui Capom" (LL 42 X 7).

In fact Martim Afonso's mother is an exemple of moorish union in Christian medieval nobility descent.
Not a gateway, not a rich case with a rich legend from ancient times.

Really a poor case with no genealogical consequence but in the same time an important case because it's a very very rare case.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-05-01 21:58:13 UTC
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Post by Vizoi Vizois
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Dear Vizoi, to be fair, I wouldn't call it "a loss of time". I think that's too harsh. I'm also surprised at such being mentioned in Livro de Linhagens do Conde Dom Pedro because such a reference isn't mentioned in the web and several portuguese hisorians reject such an idea.
But Prof. Leontina Ventura (D. Afonso III, temas e debates, 2009), Prof. J.A. Pizarro Sotto Mayor (Linhagens medievais Portuguesas, Porto 1999), or Anselmo Bramcamp Freire (Brasões da sala de Sintra vol.1) don't reject. On contrary.
Not a surprise. It's simple and efficient.
The count D. Pedro knew most probably his uncle Martim Afonso and his aunt Urraca Afonso were sons of a moorish woman (One of his grandfathe's mistress).
No informations more. No details. No name. No ethnic group (Arab, Berbere, Spanish Mulladi or another ethnic group in the Ummah) or religious status (Muslim or ex-Muslim)
Only a "moira". But an exception.
Not a Mozarabe. The Mozarabes are not called "moorish" in the nobiliarios.
Not a Jew. The Jews are not called "moira" in the Nobiliarios.
Exemple : Rui Capão in the ancestry of noble medieval Taveira Family : "Rui Capom que foi judeu, e veo a esta terra com a rainha dona Orraca por seu almoxarife, e depois feze-o ela bautizar e poserom-lhe nome Rodrigo, por sobrenome Rui Capom" (LL 42 X 7).
In fact Martim Afonso's mother is an exemple of moorish union in Christian medieval nobility descent.
Not a gateway, not a rich case with a rich legend from ancient times.
Really a poor case with no genealogical consequence but in the same time an important case because it's a very very rare case.
Sorry for questioning but are you sure about Anselmo? I'm currently finding no indication of him accepting such.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-05-01 22:03:53 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Dear Vizoi, to be fair, I wouldn't call it "a loss of time". I think that's too harsh. I'm also surprised at such being mentioned in Livro de Linhagens do Conde Dom Pedro because such a reference isn't mentioned in the web and several portuguese hisorians reject such an idea.
But Prof. Leontina Ventura (D. Afonso III, temas e debates, 2009), Prof. J.A. Pizarro Sotto Mayor (Linhagens medievais Portuguesas, Porto 1999), or Anselmo Bramcamp Freire (Brasões da sala de Sintra vol.1) don't reject. On contrary.
Not a surprise. It's simple and efficient.
The count D. Pedro knew most probably his uncle Martim Afonso and his aunt Urraca Afonso were sons of a moorish woman (One of his grandfathe's mistress).
No informations more. No details. No name. No ethnic group (Arab, Berbere, Spanish Mulladi or another ethnic group in the Ummah) or religious status (Muslim or ex-Muslim)
Only a "moira". But an exception.
Not a Mozarabe. The Mozarabes are not called "moorish" in the nobiliarios.
Not a Jew. The Jews are not called "moira" in the Nobiliarios.
Exemple : Rui Capão in the ancestry of noble medieval Taveira Family : "Rui Capom que foi judeu, e veo a esta terra com a rainha dona Orraca por seu almoxarife, e depois feze-o ela bautizar e poserom-lhe nome Rodrigo, por sobrenome Rui Capom" (LL 42 X 7).
In fact Martim Afonso's mother is an exemple of moorish union in Christian medieval nobility descent.
Not a gateway, not a rich case with a rich legend from ancient times.
Really a poor case with no genealogical consequence but in the same time an important case because it's a very very rare case.
Sorry for questioning but are you sure about Anselmo? I'm currently finding no indication of him accepting such.
Never mind, I found it, but to be precise, it's "moura", not "moira".
Vizoi Vizois
2018-05-02 09:37:56 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Dear Vizoi, to be fair, I wouldn't call it "a loss of time". I think that's too harsh. I'm also surprised at such being mentioned in Livro de Linhagens do Conde Dom Pedro because such a reference isn't mentioned in the web and several portuguese hisorians reject such an idea.
But Prof. Leontina Ventura (D. Afonso III, temas e debates, 2009), Prof. J.A. Pizarro Sotto Mayor (Linhagens medievais Portuguesas, Porto 1999), or Anselmo Bramcamp Freire (Brasões da sala de Sintra vol.1) don't reject. On contrary.
Not a surprise. It's simple and efficient.
The count D. Pedro knew most probably his uncle Martim Afonso and his aunt Urraca Afonso were sons of a moorish woman (One of his grandfathe's mistress).
No informations more. No details. No name. No ethnic group (Arab, Berbere, Spanish Mulladi or another ethnic group in the Ummah) or religious status (Muslim or ex-Muslim)
Only a "moira". But an exception.
Not a Mozarabe. The Mozarabes are not called "moorish" in the nobiliarios.
Not a Jew. The Jews are not called "moira" in the Nobiliarios.
Exemple : Rui Capão in the ancestry of noble medieval Taveira Family : "Rui Capom que foi judeu, e veo a esta terra com a rainha dona Orraca por seu almoxarife, e depois feze-o ela bautizar e poserom-lhe nome Rodrigo, por sobrenome Rui Capom" (LL 42 X 7).
In fact Martim Afonso's mother is an exemple of moorish union in Christian medieval nobility descent.
Not a gateway, not a rich case with a rich legend from ancient times.
Really a poor case with no genealogical consequence but in the same time an important case because it's a very very rare case.
Sorry for questioning but are you sure about Anselmo? I'm currently finding no indication of him accepting such.
Never mind, I found it, but to be precise, it's "moura", not "moira".
Sim. Trata-se apenas de Português arquaico.
Melhores cumprimentos
C.P.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-05-16 12:55:11 UTC
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We have the case of Abu Zayd, he was the last Almohad governor of Valencia, he converted to christianity, took the name Vicente Fernandez, married Maria Ferrandis de Azagra and had a daughter named Alda Ferrandis. Alda Ferrandis married Blasco Eximinez and has descendants among european nobility.
n***@gmail.com
2018-05-17 16:09:38 UTC
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I have a book on European royalty in my bloodline. Who where their children and what time were they all alive, what year?
Richard Smith
2018-05-17 16:33:00 UTC
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I have a book on European royalty in my bloodline.
Sounds painful. How did it get there?

Richard
r***@yahoo.com
2018-05-18 13:20:37 UTC
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I have a book on European royalty in my bloodline.
Sounds painful. How did it get there?
Richard
It is a "stem" cell disease!
n***@gmail.com
2018-05-20 18:17:41 UTC
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What?

Vizoi Vizois
2018-05-17 22:57:39 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
We have the case of Abu Zayd, he was the last Almohad governor of Valencia, he converted to christianity, took the name Vicente Fernandez, married Maria Ferrandis de Azagra and had a daughter named Alda Ferrandis. Alda Ferrandis married Blasco Eximinez and has descendants among european nobility.
Seems very interesting. He was great grandson of the "mahdi" Abd al-Mu'min (d.1163), Caliph (1147-1163) of the Almohad dynasty..
n***@gmail.com
2018-05-18 04:45:58 UTC
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Is there any record of his descendants?
taf
2018-04-30 21:51:25 UTC
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It's true. Thank you very much for this Urraca bint Abd Allah
ibn Muhammad ibn Qasi.
This comes from the genealogy of the Banu Qasi that appears in Ibn Hazm's book of genealogies. In listing the children of Abd Allah, he says that his son Furtun and daughter Urraca converted to Christianity and that Urraca married king Fruela. It lists for them three children, though not Fruela's eldest son and nominal successor, Alfonso.
Post by Vizoi Vizois
All kind of scenarii including Arab or Berbere or Mullawad nobility giving
women to noble christian families or Kings are very very rare.
In reality, yes, but there are several noteworthy legends in which this was said to have happened (e.g. the Miragaia, the Siete Infantes de Lara, the legends of William of Gellone), and at least the first two of these are routinely treated as if they were historically valid.

taf
w***@gmail.com
2018-05-01 19:22:13 UTC
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Post by Vizoi Vizois
And the "Granada-Venegas" family?
This noble Christian family were descendants of Cid Hiaya el-Nayyar (d.1506), cousin of Boabdil. I think he was the son of Aboul Celin and grd-son of the Nasrid Yusuf IV (d.1432).
His Christian name: Pedro de Granada
wife: Ceti Meriem (Christian name: María Venegas)
Perhaps a true example?
But TAF wrote: "And let me add that the only (other?) Known case of a Muslim girl (in this case, of a native dynasty) to marry a Christian king occurred even when her dynasty was extirpated and she been forced to flee."
I recently obtained a copy of ‘Las Sultanas de la Alhambra’, by Barbara Boloix Gallardo (2013). Gallardo states that the wife of Yusuf II may have been a Hafsid princess named Jadiya. Her source for this is a 16th century Christian chronicle:

Historia de la Casa Real de Granada (16th c.), p. 33, ed. by Juan De Mata Carriazo
http://www.meaharabe.com/index.php/meaharabe/article/view/813/794

Gallardo notes that the Arabic sources are silent about his wife. There appears to be a separate tradition that Yusuf II married a Marinid princess:

“King Muhamad now proposed that the oath of allegiance should be taken to his son Abu Abdallah Juzef; and the ceremony took place accordingly, being celebrated with magnificent festivities. The marriage of the prince with the daughter of the King of Fez was then negociated, and a short time after the bride was conducted to Medina Granada by the Prince of Fez…”[1]

Condé does not give a source for this information and I am unclear why he thought the wife was a Marinid rather than a Hafsid princess. Both Gallardo and Condé agree that the marriage took place in the latter half of the 1370s. This makes Yusuf II’s Hafsid or Marinid princess his third wife, as he was already a father to a son and daughter (Umm al-Fath and Muhammad VII) by his first wife and another son (Yusuf III) by his second:

“…Su otra esposa principal fue Umm al-Fath, hermana de padre y madre de Muhammad VII y solo de padre de Yusuf III.”[2]

So if we believe source [2] Yusuf II’s son Muhammad VII (born circa 1370) and Yusuf III (born 1374) were the product of two different earlier wives, but these earlier wives are omitted by Gallardo.

Gallardo identifies Ismael III as the product of Yusuf II’s union with the Hafsid princess, and the possibility remains that his brother Ali was as well. The 16th Christian Chronicle cited earlier calls Ali the third son (though Ismail III is absent from this list). Although he never became sultan, Ali was the male line ancestor of sultans Ismael IV, Muhammad XI (Boabdil) and Muhammad XII (al-Zagal). They descended from Ali’s son Saad, which brings me to my next question.

At least two modern sources identify the wife of Ibn Selim (Aben Celin) as the sister of ‘Ciriza’,[3] [4] which was an alias used by Saad, son of Ali.[5] Gallardo comments that Ibn Selim ‘enjoyed the confidence of the Nasrid royal family,’ and that he ‘was in charge of the army of the Granada and was in the direct service of Prince Ali’, but is silent about his wife.

I wonder if sources [3] [4] have confused Ibn Selim’s wife with his mother, who is elsewhere claimed to have been Fatima, daughter of ‘Cirila o Ismail’,[6] whom Gallardo tentatively identifies as Ismail II.[7]

But on the other hand the identification of ‘Cirila o Ismail’ as Ismail II seems questionable; Ismail II died in 1360, and Yusuf IV (father of Ibn Selim) was born about a decade later.

So my main question is does anyone have any other sources pointing to the identity of Yusuf II’s Hafsid or Marinid wife? And Ibn Selim’s wife?

With these uncertainties in mind, it seems possible that Pedro de Granada Venegas, first Senor de Campotejar was a descendant of Yusuf II’s Hafsid or Marinid wife. The proposed line is as follows:


Yusuf II, Sultan of Granada
M(3?): _(Hafsid / Marinid princess)

Ali ibn Yusuf
M: _

Fatima
M: Ibn Selim (Aben Celin) al-Nayyar, Wali of Almeria

Sidi Hiaya al-Nayyar (later Pedro de Granada)
M: Citimerien (Maria) Venegas

Ali Omar ibn Nazar (later Alonso de Granada Venegas)
M: Juana de Mendoza

Pedro de Granada Venegas, 1st Senor de Campotejar
M: Maria Rengifo de Avila



[1] ‘The dominion of the Arabs in Spain: a history’, vol 3., p. 292, by José Antonio Condé (1855)

[2] ‘Caballeros en la frontera. La guardia morisca de los Reyes de Castilla (1410-1467)’, p. 40, by Ana Echevarría Arsuaga (2013)

[3] ‘Historia general de Almería y su provincia’, vol. 4, p. 365, by José Ángel Tapia Garrido (1991):

“Aben Celim casa con una hermana de Ciriza, de la que tiene a Yahya al-Nayar y Equivalia. Esta casa con Muhammad el Zagal, el hermano de Muley Hacen, con lo que los vínculos familiares entre la rama del rey Ciriza y la del rey Aben Almao se refuerzan.”

[4] ‘La toma de Granada y caballeros que concurrieron á ella’, pp. 167-168, by Joaquín Durán y Lerchundi (1993):

“Hijo de Yusuf fué Aben Celim, que casó con una hermana del Rey Saad y fué padre de Cidy Hiaya Alnayar.”

[5] ‘Archaeologia: Or Miscellaneous Tracts Relating to Antiquity’, p. 71 (Society of Antiquaries of London, 1947):

“Saad (Abu ’l-Nasr), al Musta’in, alias Aben Ismael, Ismael, Muley Çad, and Ciriza, was son of Ali…”

[6] ‘Un personaje almeriense en las crónicas musulmanas y cristianas. El infante Cidi Yahya Alnayar (1435?-1505)’, p. 58, by Manuel Espinar Moreno and Juan Grima Cervantes, Boletín del Instituto de Estudios Almerienses, 7 (1987):

“[Cidi Yahya Alnayar] Era hijo de Aben Celin Aben Abrahen Alnayar, hijo del rey granadino Yusuf IV ibn al-Mawl y de Fátima, hija del rey Cirila o Ismail…”

This is repeated in ‘Almería y el Reino de Granada en los inicios de la modernidad (s. XV-XVI)’, p. 93, by Juan A. Grima Cervantes (1994):

“Cidi Yahya era hijo de Abén Celín Aben Abrahen Alnayar, quien a su vez era el hijo mayor del rey granadino Yusuf IV ibn al-Mawl y de Fátima, ésta hija del rey Cirila o Ismail.”

[7] ‘Los Sultanas de la Alhambra’, p. 83, by Barbara Boloix Gallardo


William Acton
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