Discussion:
RA and RD900 Correction: Parentage of Edmund Kemp, Gent. (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660)
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Nathan Murphy
2018-04-25 03:37:57 UTC
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I believe the royal descent survives this correction. Who were the parents of Edmund Kemp, Gent. (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660)? In an article published by Lothrop Withington in 1912, Edmund is identified as the son of Edmund Kemp (d. Stepney, Middlesex, c1649), and grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).(1) This conclusion also now appears in RA and RD900.(2) Through new records that have come to light, I will show that Robert’s son Edmund did not die in Stepney in 1649, but rather was a vicar in Nottinghamshire, who was living there as late as 1641/2.

Lothrop Withington published an abstract of the PCC admon for Edmund Kempe, of Stepney, Middlesex (25 Sep 1649), which was granted to his widow Bridget. In collaboration with English genealogist, F.H. Kemp, the two concluded this was the fifth son of Robert Kempe, Esq.(1) Bridget Kempe of Stepney, who was likely Edmund's widow, did have interests in Virginia, as shown by a 1651 power of attorney recorded in Lancaster County, Virginia (see RA 3:414).

I studied Edmund Kemp of Stepney in more detail. He lived in Spitalfields, Stepney Parish, and was a weaver. He took the protestation oath at Stepney in 1641/2.(3) He was chosen a sideman for Mile End, Stepney Parish in 1643.(4) In 1647, Edmund Kempp and Maurice Thompson [is this the same Maurice Thompson who was an eminent Virginia merchant?] were serving alongside one another as officials for Stepney Parish.(5) 'Edmund Kempe of Spittlefeildes weaver' was buried at Stepney, 5 Sep 1649.(6) I couldn’t find record of his marriage to Bridget, nor of any children baptized to them, nor Bridget’s burial or possible remarriage after Edmund’s death on Ancestry, FamilySearch, or findmypast.

Backing up to Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612). His fifth son Edmund Kemp matriculated at Magdalen College, Oxford, in 1624, aged 18.(7) His career after Oxford isn’t traced in Alumni Oxonienses. Did an Oxford man become a Spitalfields weaver? Or are these different men with the same name? They are different men with the same name. CCED has published clergy records that tell us more about Edmund’s life. He was ordained a deacon and priest at Peterborough in 1628. He was collated at Mattersey, Nottinghamshire in 1629/30.(8) He was serving there through at least 1641/2.(9)

So we definitely have two distinct Edmund Kemps - one took the protestation oath in Stepney, Middlesex and the other in Mattersey, Nottinghamshire.

Of critical importance to identifying Edmund Kemp, vicar of Mattersey, Nottinghamshire as the Oxford alum, he had the qualification of LLB, as recorded in his collation record in 1630 at Mattersey. That degree was offered at Oxford and Cambridge(10) and there is record of only one Edmund Kemp graduating from either university during this period - the son of Robert Kempe, Esq.

Edmund Kemp, vicar, and his wife Mary baptized a daughter Anne in 1634 and a son John in 1640 at Mattersey.(11) In the 1644 PCC will of Arthur Kemp of Michael at the Thorne Parish, Norwich, he made bequests to the four eldest children (not named) of his brother Edmond. He also remembers his brother Sir Robert Kempe.(12) Arthur, Edmund, and Sir Robert are the sons of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).

Edmund Kemp, vicar of Mattersey, did not leave a PCY will between 1636 and 1653, nor was administration granted on his estate in that court between 1627 and 1652.(13)

Returning to the Virginia immigrant, Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660). I see little reason to doubt he is identical to “my neaphew Edmund Kempe” bequeathed “one new servante this yeare, two Cowes next yeare, and five hundred poundes of Tobaccoi to bee payed him next yeare towardes his buildinge” in the PCC will of Richard Kempe of Rich-neck in the Collonie of Virginia Esquire, dated 1649/50.(14) Richard is a well-known figure in Virginia history. He served as Secretary of Virginia and Acting Governor of Virginia. He was the third son of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).

In conclusion Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660) was probably the grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612), but which of Robert’s seven sons was Edmund’s father is currently uncertain.

REFERENCES
(1) VMHB 20 (1912):73-75.
(2) RA 3:414, RD900:483-484. Roberts expresses uncertainty about Edmund’s parentage.
(3) Middlesex Protestation Returns 1641-42, findmypast.co.uk.
(4) Memorials of Stepney Parish (1890-1891), 180.
(5) Memorials of Stepney Parish (1890-1891), 190.
(6) Stepney, Middlesex, parish registers, ancestry.co.uk.
(7) Alumni Oxonienses, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/alumni-oxon/1500-1714/pp837-867 .
(8) CCED sub Kemp and Kempe.
(9) 1637. Fire at Mattersey. Elizabeth Hall widow, Thomas Hall yeoman Edmond Kemp clerk, and 11 others sustained losses to the value of £2,000 and upwards. On the 6th October, 1637, "evidence was given on oath that they are not able to susteyn themselves and their families wthout want uidess they be releeved wth a colleccon and they were bound over not to apply any parte of their colleccon if it shall be granted, to the Landlord or other person of ability nor put over the benefit thereof to any other according to the Lord Keepers direccon And thereupon a Certificate of the premises was made by this Court to the Lord Keeper accordingly." http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/books/nottsrecords1915/nottsrecords17.htm; W. F. Webster, Protestation Returns: 1641/2-Notts./Derbys (1980), 19. Original record: http://digitalarchive.parliament.uk/HL/PO/JO/10/1/100/38
(10) Wikipedians, ‘Bachelor of Laws,’ cite Reed (1921), 160-161.
(11) Mattersey, Notts, bishops transcripts [FHL film 503793]. The Rev. signed his name several times between 1632 and 1641. Interesting godparents in Anne’s baptism: 1634 Apr 01, Anne Kempe daughter of Edmund: Kempe vicar of Mattersay & of Mary his wife was baptized the first daye of Aprill 1634 Mr Charles Nevile godfather Mrs Anne Nevile wife of John Nevile of Matteresay Esquier & Mrs Stringer wife of Nicholas Stringer of Sutton Esquier Godmothers.
(12) VMHB 20 (1912):73-75.
(13) PCY calendars.
(14) VMHB 20 (1912):73-75.

Nathan
wjhonson
2018-04-26 19:15:51 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
I believe the royal descent survives this correction. Who were the parents of Edmund Kemp, Gent. (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660)? In an article published by Lothrop Withington in 1912, Edmund is identified as the son of Edmund Kemp (d. Stepney, Middlesex, c1649), and grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).(1) This conclusion also now appears in RA and RD900.(2) Through new records that have come to light, I will show that Robert’s son Edmund did not die in Stepney in 1649, but rather was a vicar in Nottinghamshire, who was living there as late as 1641/2.
Lothrop Withington published an abstract of the PCC admon for Edmund Kempe, of Stepney, Middlesex (25 Sep 1649), which was granted to his widow Bridget. In collaboration with English genealogist, F.H. Kemp, the two concluded this was the fifth son of Robert Kempe, Esq.(1) Bridget Kempe of Stepney, who was likely Edmund's widow, did have interests in Virginia, as shown by a 1651 power of attorney recorded in Lancaster County, Virginia (see RA 3:414).
I studied Edmund Kemp of Stepney in more detail. He lived in Spitalfields, Stepney Parish, and was a weaver. He took the protestation oath at Stepney in 1641/2.(3) He was chosen a sideman for Mile End, Stepney Parish in 1643.(4) In 1647, Edmund Kempp and Maurice Thompson [is this the same Maurice Thompson who was an eminent Virginia merchant?] were serving alongside one another as officials for Stepney Parish.(5) 'Edmund Kempe of Spittlefeildes weaver' was buried at Stepney, 5 Sep 1649.(6) I couldn’t find record of his marriage to Bridget, nor of any children baptized to them, nor Bridget’s burial or possible remarriage after Edmund’s death on Ancestry, FamilySearch, or findmypast.
Backing up to Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612). His fifth son Edmund Kemp matriculated at Magdalen College, Oxford, in 1624, aged 18.(7) His career after Oxford isn’t traced in Alumni Oxonienses. Did an Oxford man become a Spitalfields weaver? Or are these different men with the same name? They are different men with the same name. CCED has published clergy records that tell us more about Edmund’s life. He was ordained a deacon and priest at Peterborough in 1628. He was collated at Mattersey, Nottinghamshire in 1629/30.(8) He was serving there through at least 1641/2.(9)
So we definitely have two distinct Edmund Kemps - one took the protestation oath in Stepney, Middlesex and the other in Mattersey, Nottinghamshire.
Of critical importance to identifying Edmund Kemp, vicar of Mattersey, Nottinghamshire as the Oxford alum, he had the qualification of LLB, as recorded in his collation record in 1630 at Mattersey. That degree was offered at Oxford and Cambridge(10) and there is record of only one Edmund Kemp graduating from either university during this period - the son of Robert Kempe, Esq.
Edmund Kemp, vicar, and his wife Mary baptized a daughter Anne in 1634 and a son John in 1640 at Mattersey.(11) In the 1644 PCC will of Arthur Kemp of Michael at the Thorne Parish, Norwich, he made bequests to the four eldest children (not named) of his brother Edmond. He also remembers his brother Sir Robert Kempe.(12) Arthur, Edmund, and Sir Robert are the sons of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).
Edmund Kemp, vicar of Mattersey, did not leave a PCY will between 1636 and 1653, nor was administration granted on his estate in that court between 1627 and 1652.(13)
Returning to the Virginia immigrant, Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660). I see little reason to doubt he is identical to “my neaphew Edmund Kempe” bequeathed “one new servante this yeare, two Cowes next yeare, and five hundred poundes of Tobaccoi to bee payed him next yeare towardes his buildinge” in the PCC will of Richard Kempe of Rich-neck in the Collonie of Virginia Esquire, dated 1649/50.(14) Richard is a well-known figure in Virginia history. He served as Secretary of Virginia and Acting Governor of Virginia. He was the third son of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).
In conclusion Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660) was probably the grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612), but which of Robert’s seven sons was Edmund’s father is currently uncertain.
REFERENCES
(1) VMHB 20 (1912):73-75.
(2) RA 3:414, RD900:483-484. Roberts expresses uncertainty about Edmund’s parentage.
(3) Middlesex Protestation Returns 1641-42, findmypast.co.uk.
(4) Memorials of Stepney Parish (1890-1891), 180.
(5) Memorials of Stepney Parish (1890-1891), 190.
(6) Stepney, Middlesex, parish registers, ancestry.co.uk.
(7) Alumni Oxonienses, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/alumni-oxon/1500-1714/pp837-867 .
(8) CCED sub Kemp and Kempe.
(9) 1637. Fire at Mattersey. Elizabeth Hall widow, Thomas Hall yeoman Edmond Kemp clerk, and 11 others sustained losses to the value of £2,000 and upwards. On the 6th October, 1637, "evidence was given on oath that they are not able to susteyn themselves and their families wthout want uidess they be releeved wth a colleccon and they were bound over not to apply any parte of their colleccon if it shall be granted, to the Landlord or other person of ability nor put over the benefit thereof to any other according to the Lord Keepers direccon And thereupon a Certificate of the premises was made by this Court to the Lord Keeper accordingly." http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/books/nottsrecords1915/nottsrecords17.htm; W. F. Webster, Protestation Returns: 1641/2-Notts./Derbys (1980), 19. Original record: http://digitalarchive.parliament.uk/HL/PO/JO/10/1/100/38
(10) Wikipedians, ‘Bachelor of Laws,’ cite Reed (1921), 160-161.
(11) Mattersey, Notts, bishops transcripts [FHL film 503793]. The Rev. signed his name several times between 1632 and 1641. Interesting godparents in Anne’s baptism: 1634 Apr 01, Anne Kempe daughter of Edmund: Kempe vicar of Mattersay & of Mary his wife was baptized the first daye of Aprill 1634 Mr Charles Nevile godfather Mrs Anne Nevile wife of John Nevile of Matteresay Esquier & Mrs Stringer wife of Nicholas Stringer of Sutton Esquier Godmothers.
(12) VMHB 20 (1912):73-75.
(13) PCY calendars.
(14) VMHB 20 (1912):73-75.
Nathan
Do you have a list of all of the children of Robert d 1612 ?
Nathan Murphy
2018-04-27 01:50:46 UTC
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Nathan
Do you have a list of all of the children of Robert d 1612 ?
Doug cites PCC wills:

Robert Kempe's will: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_311280-00166/894334

Robert Kempe's widow Dorothy's will: https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310878-00192/848316

P.S. Will, I saw you have been researching one of Anne Kemp's godparents: https://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=wjhonson&id=I161185

I was wondering if the vicar may have married a daughter of the Neviles or the Stringers.

Nathan
Nathan Murphy
2018-04-29 21:48:16 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
I studied Edmund Kemp of Stepney in more detail. He lived in Spitalfields, Stepney Parish, and was a weaver. He took the protestation oath at Stepney in 1641/2.(3) He was chosen a sideman for Mile End, Stepney Parish in 1643.(4) In 1647, Edmund Kempp and Maurice Thompson [is this the same Maurice Thompson who was an eminent Virginia merchant?] were serving alongside one another as officials for Stepney Parish.(5) 'Edmund Kempe of Spittlefeildes weaver' was buried at Stepney, 5 Sep 1649.(6) I couldn’t find record of his marriage to Bridget, nor of any children baptized to them, nor Bridget’s burial or possible remarriage after Edmund’s death on Ancestry, FamilySearch, or findmypast.
Backing up to Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612). His fifth son Edmund Kemp matriculated at Magdalen College, Oxford, in 1624, aged 18.(7) His career after Oxford isn’t traced in Alumni Oxonienses. Did an Oxford man become a Spitalfields weaver? Or are these different men with the same name? They are different men with the same name.
I found these entries in records of the Clothworkers' Company:

1. 1646 Aug 06, for 8 years, John Grace, son of Christopher Grace, Clerici, of Lansyug, Sussex, apprenticed to Edmund Kemp, weaver, of Wentworth Streete, Middlesex, master, co. Clothworker.

2. 1646 Sep 22, for 8 years, John Lathbury, son of William Lathbury, weaver, of Newton Linford, Leics, apprenticed to Edmund Kemp, weaver, of Wentworth Street, Middlesex, master, co. Clothworker.

3. 1652 Oct 20, for 7 years, John Morris, son of Robert Morris, carpinter, of Ireland, dec'd, apprenticed to Bridgett Kempe, widow of Edmond Kempe dec'd, co. Clothworker, of Wentford streete, Middlesex, master.

Wentworth Street passes through Stepney Parish.

At London Roll, it's unclear how Edmond Kempe became free of the Clothworkers' Company. http://londonroll.org/

Nathan
j***@gmail.com
2018-06-30 13:22:35 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
Returning to the Virginia immigrant, Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660). I see little reason to doubt he is identical to “my neaphew Edmund Kempe” bequeathed “one new servante this yeare, two Cowes next yeare, and five hundred poundes of Tobaccoi to bee payed him next yeare towardes his buildinge” in the PCC will of Richard Kempe of Rich-neck in the Collonie of Virginia Esquire, dated 1649/50.(14) Richard is a well-known figure in Virginia history. He served as Secretary of Virginia and Acting Governor of Virginia. He was the third son of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).
Where is the evidence that Richard Kempe was the son of Robert Kempe of Gissing? I don't see a shred of evidence, beyond the bare fact that Richard had a brother Edward, and Robert had sons Richard and Edward -- both of which were family names appearing elsewhere in the Kempe tree, which appears to not be well-researched, by Richardson or anyone else. There are other likely possibilities in the extended Kempe family for the progenitor of the Virginia Kempes (except for Matthew, whose lineage back to Robert of Gissing is well-documented).
Post by Nathan Murphy
In conclusion Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660) was probably the grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612), but which of Robert’s seven sons was Edmund’s father is currently uncertain.
Once again, if there is no reason to assume that immigrant Richard Kempe was the son of Robert, then there is no reason to conclude that immigrant Edmund Kempe was Robert's grandson. It seems that the lineages of three supposed Kempe gateway ancestors -- Richard and brother Edward as well as Richard's nephew Edmund -- are in doubt.

p.s. It appears that there were two separate Robert Kempes of two separate Gissings (in different parishes): see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/601228/another-broken-gateway-lineage-edmund-kempe-of-virginia
Nathan Murphy
2018-07-01 00:33:26 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
Returning to the Virginia immigrant, Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660). I see little reason to doubt he is identical to “my neaphew Edmund Kempe” bequeathed “one new servante this yeare, two Cowes next yeare, and five hundred poundes of Tobaccoi to bee payed him next yeare towardes his buildinge” in the PCC will of Richard Kempe of Rich-neck in the Collonie of Virginia Esquire, dated 1649/50.(14) Richard is a well-known figure in Virginia history. He served as Secretary of Virginia and Acting Governor of Virginia. He was the third son of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).
Where is the evidence that Richard Kempe was the son of Robert Kempe of Gissing? I don't see a shred of evidence, beyond the bare fact that Richard had a brother Edward, and Robert had sons Richard and Edward -- both of which were family names appearing elsewhere in the Kempe tree, which appears to not be well-researched, by Richardson or anyone else. There are other likely possibilities in the extended Kempe family for the progenitor of the Virginia Kempes (except for Matthew, whose lineage back to Robert of Gissing is well-documented).
Post by Nathan Murphy
In conclusion Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660) was probably the grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612), but which of Robert’s seven sons was Edmund’s father is currently uncertain.
Once again, if there is no reason to assume that immigrant Richard Kempe was the son of Robert, then there is no reason to conclude that immigrant Edmund Kempe was Robert's grandson. It seems that the lineages of three supposed Kempe gateway ancestors -- Richard and brother Edward as well as Richard's nephew Edmund -- are in doubt.
p.s. It appears that there were two separate Robert Kempes of two separate Gissings (in different parishes): see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/601228/another-broken-gateway-lineage-edmund-kempe-of-virginia
Wow, no idea I had sparked such discussion on WikiTree. I haven't looked too closely at the proof for the parentage of 'Richard Kempe of Rich-neck in the Collonie of Virginia Esquire.'

I see your point and agree, additional research should be undertaken. The proof presented in VMHB articles, is as you state, siblings names being the same. He was also of high status in the colony (Acting Governor), associated with those of high status (the Wormeleys, George Reade, Richard Lee, and Sir William Berkeley are all mentioned in his will VHMB 2:174-176 https://www.jstor.org/stable/4241807), and there is also this reference in VMHB 3:40-42:

'A petition, July 14th, 1656, is recorded in Lancaster county, [Virginia] from Mr. Edmond Kempe, attorney of Sir Robert Kempe, Knight, against one William Fisshe.'
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4241863?seq=6#page_scan_tab_contents

I haven't reviewed the original record.

No relationship is defined in the abstract, but a transatlantic relationship of trust is evident.

Nathan
j***@gmail.com
2018-07-01 05:10:34 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
No relationship is defined in the abstract, but a transatlantic relationship of trust is evident.
No doubt Edmund Kempe of Lancaster County, Virginia was a kinsman of Sir Robert Kempe.

Somebody at wikitree used the old, uncertain and incomplete Kempe genealogy to make profiles of the various second and third cousins and their ancestors, going back to Robert Kempe (c. 1520-1594) of Gissing; see https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Kempe-Descendants-168

That, at the very least, gives a sense of the various potential locations where the Virginia Kempes (Richard, brother Edward and nephew Edmund) could plug in to the extended family.
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