Discussion:
Gilbert Kennedy husband of Isabel Campbell
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Paulo Canedo
2017-08-20 15:55:15 UTC
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Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
wjhonson
2017-08-20 17:14:11 UTC
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Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
Gilbert /Kennedy/ , 2nd Earl of Cassillis
son of
David Kennedy, 3rd Baron Kennedy, 1st Earl of /Cassilis/
by his wife
Agnes /Borthwick/
Paulo Canedo
2017-08-20 17:48:26 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
Gilbert /Kennedy/ , 2nd Earl of Cassillis
son of
David Kennedy, 3rd Baron Kennedy, 1st Earl of /Cassilis/
by his wife
Agnes /Borthwick/
Thanks but unfortunately this is certainly not the couple the webpage mentions look at the dates they are completely different couples. The webpage also says they married in 4 Nov 1620 quoting Ayrshire, Scotland, Parish and Probate Records by Ancestry.com. Besides Thomas supossed ancestor of JFK they also mention as their child a certain Margaret who married Hans Melville Hamilton.
wjhonson
2017-08-20 18:18:03 UTC
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Kennedy,_4th_Earl_of_Cassilis

Gilbert had only two legitimate children
He had no son named Gilbert
John Higgins
2017-08-20 21:35:50 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Kennedy,_4th_Earl_of_Cassilis
Gilbert had only two legitimate children
He had no son named Gilbert
Ummm...yes,this was noted in the 2013 discussion - with without depending on Wikipedia as a source.
John Higgins
2017-08-20 22:09:46 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Kennedy,_4th_Earl_of_Cassilis
Gilbert had only two legitimate children
He had no son named Gilbert
Ummm...yes,this was noted in the 2013 discussion - with without depending on Wikipedia as a source.
another typo - "with without" should read "without".
wjhonson
2017-08-21 18:53:33 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Kennedy,_4th_Earl_of_Cassilis
Gilbert had only two legitimate children
He had no son named Gilbert
Ummm...yes,this was noted in the 2013 discussion - with without depending on Wikipedia as a source.
And now it has been noted again.
John Higgins
2017-08-20 18:01:22 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
Gilbert /Kennedy/ , 2nd Earl of Cassillis
son of
David Kennedy, 3rd Baron Kennedy, 1st Earl of /Cassilis/
by his wife
Agnes /Borthwick/
Did you happen to look at the chronology here? The Gilbert Kennedy that Paolo is asking about, said to have married Isabel Campbell, is said in the referenced pedigree to be born in 1593 and to be the grandson of Gilbert Kennedy, 4th Earl of Cassillis. This Gilbert was in turn the grandson of your Gilbert the 2nd Earl of Cassillis who did marry Isabel Campbell.

If Paolo had posted a link to the 2013 discussion he cited (rather than simply mentioning it), it would be clear that this Gilbert Kennedy is certainly not of the family of Kennedy of Cassillis nor of the family of Kennedy of Bargany. He may or may not have existed, but the ancestry given for him is certainly fictional.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/dowling%7Csort:relevance/soc.genealogy.medieval/F9Yax-sgoD8/xi_pLL5TOa4J
Kelsey Jackson Williams
2017-08-20 20:08:37 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
Gilbert /Kennedy/ , 2nd Earl of Cassillis
son of
David Kennedy, 3rd Baron Kennedy, 1st Earl of /Cassilis/
by his wife
Agnes /Borthwick/
Did you happen to look at the chronology here? The Gilbert Kennedy that Paolo is asking about, said to have married Isabel Campbell, is said in the referenced pedigree to be born in 1593 and to be the grandson of Gilbert Kennedy, 4th Earl of Cassillis. This Gilbert was in turn the grandson of your Gilbert the 2nd Earl of Cassillis who did marry Isabel Campbell.
If Paolo had posted a link to the 2013 discussion he cited (rather than simply mentioning it), it would be clear that this Gilbert Kennedy is certainly not of the family of Kennedy of Cassillis nor of the family of Kennedy of Bargany. He may or may not have existed, but the ancestry given for him is certainly fictional.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/dowling%7Csort:relevance/soc.genealogy.medieval/F9Yax-sgoD8/xi_pLL5TOa4J
Dear Paolo,

I commented briefly on the questionable nature of the Dowling pedigree back when it was first brought up in 2013. Looking at it more closely, though (http://gw.geneanet.org/tdowling?lang=fr&pz=timothy+michael&nz=dowling&ocz=0&p=gilbert&n=kennedy&oc=7) it's clear that it's an absolute farrago of fantasy and wishful thinking. To take an example, one of the alleged children of the Gilbert Kennedy and Isabel Campbell you mention is supposed to be a certain Hugh Kennedy who married Mary Upton. This was Dr. Hugh Kennedy of Ballycultra, co. Down (see _Scottish Antiquary_ 11 [1897]: 44) but he neither had a son William nor a father Gilbert - his actual father being Oliver Kennedy, 1st of Breakath, a younger son of the Balmaclanachan family.

The maternal ancestry of Isabel Campbell, as presented by Dowling, is also nonsense. Her supposed father Archibald could hardly be the son of John Campbell of Skipnish, as presented, for John left only two daughters and co-heirs. I'd say forgot the whole thing and start with less fantastic sources.

All the best,
Kelsey
Paulo Canedo
2017-08-20 20:35:45 UTC
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Post by Kelsey Jackson Williams
Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
Gilbert /Kennedy/ , 2nd Earl of Cassillis
son of
David Kennedy, 3rd Baron Kennedy, 1st Earl of /Cassilis/
by his wife
Agnes /Borthwick/
Did you happen to look at the chronology here? The Gilbert Kennedy that Paolo is asking about, said to have married Isabel Campbell, is said in the referenced pedigree to be born in 1593 and to be the grandson of Gilbert Kennedy, 4th Earl of Cassillis. This Gilbert was in turn the grandson of your Gilbert the 2nd Earl of Cassillis who did marry Isabel Campbell.
If Paolo had posted a link to the 2013 discussion he cited (rather than simply mentioning it), it would be clear that this Gilbert Kennedy is certainly not of the family of Kennedy of Cassillis nor of the family of Kennedy of Bargany. He may or may not have existed, but the ancestry given for him is certainly fictional.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/dowling%7Csort:relevance/soc.genealogy.medieval/F9Yax-sgoD8/xi_pLL5TOa4J
Dear Paolo,
I commented briefly on the questionable nature of the Dowling pedigree back when it was first brought up in 2013. Looking at it more closely, though (http://gw.geneanet.org/tdowling?lang=fr&pz=timothy+michael&nz=dowling&ocz=0&p=gilbert&n=kennedy&oc=7) it's clear that it's an absolute farrago of fantasy and wishful thinking. To take an example, one of the alleged children of the Gilbert Kennedy and Isabel Campbell you mention is supposed to be a certain Hugh Kennedy who married Mary Upton. This was Dr. Hugh Kennedy of Ballycultra, co. Down (see _Scottish Antiquary_ 11 [1897]: 44) but he neither had a son William nor a father Gilbert - his actual father being Oliver Kennedy, 1st of Breakath, a younger son of the Balmaclanachan family.
The maternal ancestry of Isabel Campbell, as presented by Dowling, is also nonsense. Her supposed father Archibald could hardly be the son of John Campbell of Skipnish, as presented, for John left only two daughters and co-heirs. I'd say forgot the whole thing and start with less fantastic sources.
All the best,
Kelsey
In first place don't mean to be rude but why are you calling me Paolo I'm not Italian to have that name I'm portuguese and my name's Paulo Ricardo. I brought this up because the same website gave a descent from them to Thomas Montgomery of Philadelphia who married Susannah Jamison and his sister Deborah who married Robert Allen. Deborah and Robert are agnatic ancestors of my friend genealogist James Allen. That Deborah was sister of Thomas is shown by Thomas's will in 1766 where he mentions his nephew Robert Allen who was son of Deborah. There seems to be no real consensus about Thomas and Deborah's parentage. The website mentions them as children of James Montgomery son of Hugh Montgomery and Jane Hamilton from who the supossed descent comes from although they don't give a source for their parentage. Do you know anything about the parentage of Thomas Montgomery?
John Higgins
2017-08-20 21:12:30 UTC
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Post by Paulo Canedo
Post by Kelsey Jackson Williams
Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
Gilbert /Kennedy/ , 2nd Earl of Cassillis
son of
David Kennedy, 3rd Baron Kennedy, 1st Earl of /Cassilis/
by his wife
Agnes /Borthwick/
Did you happen to look at the chronology here? The Gilbert Kennedy that Paolo is asking about, said to have married Isabel Campbell, is said in the referenced pedigree to be born in 1593 and to be the grandson of Gilbert Kennedy, 4th Earl of Cassillis. This Gilbert was in turn the grandson of your Gilbert the 2nd Earl of Cassillis who did marry Isabel Campbell.
If Paolo had posted a link to the 2013 discussion he cited (rather than simply mentioning it), it would be clear that this Gilbert Kennedy is certainly not of the family of Kennedy of Cassillis nor of the family of Kennedy of Bargany. He may or may not have existed, but the ancestry given for him is certainly fictional.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/dowling%7Csort:relevance/soc.genealogy.medieval/F9Yax-sgoD8/xi_pLL5TOa4J
Dear Paolo,
I commented briefly on the questionable nature of the Dowling pedigree back when it was first brought up in 2013. Looking at it more closely, though (http://gw.geneanet.org/tdowling?lang=fr&pz=timothy+michael&nz=dowling&ocz=0&p=gilbert&n=kennedy&oc=7) it's clear that it's an absolute farrago of fantasy and wishful thinking. To take an example, one of the alleged children of the Gilbert Kennedy and Isabel Campbell you mention is supposed to be a certain Hugh Kennedy who married Mary Upton. This was Dr. Hugh Kennedy of Ballycultra, co. Down (see _Scottish Antiquary_ 11 [1897]: 44) but he neither had a son William nor a father Gilbert - his actual father being Oliver Kennedy, 1st of Breakath, a younger son of the Balmaclanachan family.
The maternal ancestry of Isabel Campbell, as presented by Dowling, is also nonsense. Her supposed father Archibald could hardly be the son of John Campbell of Skipnish, as presented, for John left only two daughters and co-heirs. I'd say forgot the whole thing and start with less fantastic sources.
All the best,
Kelsey
In first place don't mean to be rude but why are you calling me Paolo I'm not Italian to have that name I'm portuguese and my name's Paulo Ricardo. I brought this up because the same website gave a descent from them to Thomas Montgomery of Philadelphia who married Susannah Jamison and his sister Deborah who married Robert Allen. Deborah and Robert are agnatic ancestors of my friend genealogist James Allen. That Deborah was sister of Thomas is shown by Thomas's will in 1766 where he mentions his nephew Robert Allen who was son of Deborah. There seems to be no real consensus about Thomas and Deborah's parentage. The website mentions them as children of James Montgomery son of Hugh Montgomery and Jane Hamilton from who the supossed descent comes from although they don't give a source for their parentage. Do you know anything about the parentage of Thomas Montgomery?
I apologize - "Paolo" was my mistake. I was typing quickly and should have caught that I had misspelled your name. You're quite right to call it to my attention.
Kelsey Jackson Williams
2017-08-21 06:42:37 UTC
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Dear Paulo,

My sincere apologies for the slip of the fingers/brain that turned Paulo into Paolo! It certainly wasn't intended.

Now as to Thomas Montgomery of Philadelphia, the best place to start is probably the account given by Thomas Harrison Montgomery in _A Genealogical History of the Family of Montgomery_ (Philadelphia, 1863), on archive.org at

https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalhist00mont#page/n5/mode/2up

The account at p.150ff. states that Thomas Montgomery (1713-1766) was born in co. Armagh and was "believed" to be the son of a John Montgomery. He allegedly had a brother John, who settled in New Hampshire (p. 153), and was also allegedly a cousin of the brothers Samuel, James, John, and Robert Montgomery who immigrated to the colonies around the same time.

The only titbit which might help with identifying the origins of this man is the note (p. 150) that his descendants owned "an old coat of arms" apparently consisting of Montgomery and Eglinton quartered within a double tressure with an escutcheon for difference charged with a sword and a lance saltirewise as well as some pieces of silver bearing a mailed hand holding a dagger (pp. 149-150). These are the arms of the Earls of Mount Alexander and it's anyone's guess as to whether this family had a right to them, but it might be a place to start.

All the best,
Kelsey
Post by Paulo Canedo
Post by Kelsey Jackson Williams
Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
Gilbert /Kennedy/ , 2nd Earl of Cassillis
son of
David Kennedy, 3rd Baron Kennedy, 1st Earl of /Cassilis/
by his wife
Agnes /Borthwick/
Did you happen to look at the chronology here? The Gilbert Kennedy that Paolo is asking about, said to have married Isabel Campbell, is said in the referenced pedigree to be born in 1593 and to be the grandson of Gilbert Kennedy, 4th Earl of Cassillis. This Gilbert was in turn the grandson of your Gilbert the 2nd Earl of Cassillis who did marry Isabel Campbell.
If Paolo had posted a link to the 2013 discussion he cited (rather than simply mentioning it), it would be clear that this Gilbert Kennedy is certainly not of the family of Kennedy of Cassillis nor of the family of Kennedy of Bargany. He may or may not have existed, but the ancestry given for him is certainly fictional.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/dowling%7Csort:relevance/soc.genealogy.medieval/F9Yax-sgoD8/xi_pLL5TOa4J
Dear Paolo,
I commented briefly on the questionable nature of the Dowling pedigree back when it was first brought up in 2013. Looking at it more closely, though (http://gw.geneanet.org/tdowling?lang=fr&pz=timothy+michael&nz=dowling&ocz=0&p=gilbert&n=kennedy&oc=7) it's clear that it's an absolute farrago of fantasy and wishful thinking. To take an example, one of the alleged children of the Gilbert Kennedy and Isabel Campbell you mention is supposed to be a certain Hugh Kennedy who married Mary Upton. This was Dr. Hugh Kennedy of Ballycultra, co. Down (see _Scottish Antiquary_ 11 [1897]: 44) but he neither had a son William nor a father Gilbert - his actual father being Oliver Kennedy, 1st of Breakath, a younger son of the Balmaclanachan family.
The maternal ancestry of Isabel Campbell, as presented by Dowling, is also nonsense. Her supposed father Archibald could hardly be the son of John Campbell of Skipnish, as presented, for John left only two daughters and co-heirs. I'd say forgot the whole thing and start with less fantastic sources.
All the best,
Kelsey
In first place don't mean to be rude but why are you calling me Paolo I'm not Italian to have that name I'm portuguese and my name's Paulo Ricardo. I brought this up because the same website gave a descent from them to Thomas Montgomery of Philadelphia who married Susannah Jamison and his sister Deborah who married Robert Allen. Deborah and Robert are agnatic ancestors of my friend genealogist James Allen. That Deborah was sister of Thomas is shown by Thomas's will in 1766 where he mentions his nephew Robert Allen who was son of Deborah. There seems to be no real consensus about Thomas and Deborah's parentage. The website mentions them as children of James Montgomery son of Hugh Montgomery and Jane Hamilton from who the supossed descent comes from although they don't give a source for their parentage. Do you know anything about the parentage of Thomas Montgomery?
9***@gmail.com
2017-08-23 07:23:18 UTC
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Greetings group followers,

I am from this family, the Kennedys of Ailsa/Cassillis, so thanks for the excuse to finally join the group discussion on a topic. I have seen a number of attempted connections to known branches of the family and most have unfortunately turned out to be incorrect. In this case, as was pointed out, someone is trying to make US president John F. Kennedy, a descendant of the native Irish-Catholic Kennedys from Munster, a descendant of we Protestant, Scottish Kennedys. There was a significant cultural difference between the two even when some Protestant, Scottish Kennedys settled in Ulster. The tale might stem from a Scottish Kennedy descendant.
https://eturbonews.com/78336/my-cousin-john-f-kennedy-and-our-celtic-homeland
https://www.scribd.com/doc/127293125/President-John-Fitzgerald-Kennedy-ancestor-chart

Information on how the Irish Kennedys came to be in Wexford can be found here.
http://irishamerica.com/2014/03/clan-kennedy-of-presidents-and-kings/

The Irish Kennedys of Ormond named a chief not long ago. I have no idea if he possesses a genealogy back to the O'Kennedy chiefs. It doesn't seem to be official, because there is no longer an office to recognize new chiefs, like there is in Scotland. It seems his position could be seen more like what is now called a captaincy here in Scotland, where someone is chosen to represent a clan when the legitimate representative is unknown. This proclaimed chief has no connection to my father or we Scottish Kennedys as a whole.

I have a new website with some information on the early Scottish Kennedys. katherineailsa=weebly=com
c***@gmail.com
2018-07-10 00:18:15 UTC
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Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup back in 2013 there was a discussion about Tim Dowling's strange descent involving the Kennedys and there it was mentioned a source that says that Gilbert Kennedy and Janet Stuart only had a son named Thomas who died without issue and two daughters who died young however http://www.montyhistnotes.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1058&tree=MontyHistNotes_II makes a certain Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell their son although this genealogy is certainly related somehow with Dowling's confusions. Who was the Gilbert Kennedy who married Isabel Campbell?
I am doing some serious research on this . Can you tell me how you know Dr Hugh Kennedy was the son of Oliver Kennedy , 1st of Breakath ? Happy to send you research when completed.
Scott Reid

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