Discussion:
Fitz Martin descent from Rhys ap Gruffydd
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HWinnSadler
2018-05-22 14:23:52 UTC
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From several sources, I've found this line of descent from Rhys ap Gruffydd, Prince of Deheubarth, also known as the Lord Rhys (d. 1197). Interestingly, the mother of Rhys was Gwenllian ferch Gruffydd, who led the Patriotic Revolt in 1136. The later part of this descent is including in "Magna Carta Ancestry" by Douglas Richardson. Looking for corrections or additions.

Rhys ap Gruffydd (d.1197) and Gwenllian ferch Madog
Angharad ferch Rhys and William Fitz Martin
William Fitz Martin and Avice de Toriton
Nicholas Fitz Martin and Isabel
Nicholas Fitz Martin and Maud de Bryan.

The Fitz Martin's are ancestral to the Audley/Tuchet family, among others. As far as I know, the Reverend Hawte Wyatt descends from this family, probably along with some other Gateway Ancestors. If you descend from this family, I'd be interested in seeing how.
John Higgins
2018-05-22 19:50:59 UTC
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Post by HWinnSadler
From several sources, I've found this line of descent from Rhys ap Gruffydd, Prince of Deheubarth, also known as the Lord Rhys (d. 1197). Interestingly, the mother of Rhys was Gwenllian ferch Gruffydd, who led the Patriotic Revolt in 1136. The later part of this descent is including in "Magna Carta Ancestry" by Douglas Richardson. Looking for corrections or additions.
Rhys ap Gruffydd (d.1197) and Gwenllian ferch Madog
Angharad ferch Rhys and William Fitz Martin
William Fitz Martin and Avice de Toriton
Nicholas Fitz Martin and Isabel
Nicholas Fitz Martin and Maud de Bryan.
The Fitz Martin's are ancestral to the Audley/Tuchet family, among others. As far as I know, the Reverend Hawte Wyatt descends from this family, probably along with some other Gateway Ancestors. If you descend from this family, I'd be interested in seeing how.
You state above that Angharad the wife of the first William Fitz Martin was a daughter of Rhys ap Gruffudd ("the lord Rhys"). What is your source for this? I believe that Peter Bartrum's Welsg Genealogies (table Rhys ap Tewdwr 3) says that she was an illegitimate daughter of Rhys by Rhus of his many mistresses.

It would not be surprising if other sources, noting that Angharad was a daughter of Rhys, simply assumed that she was a daughter by his wife. But Bartrum indicates otherwise.
HWinnSadler
2018-05-23 14:06:29 UTC
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From doing further research, it appears that is correct and Angharad's mother is unknown. Considering most descendants of the Fitz Martin's would probably also descend from Madog ap Maredudd via other lines, not much is lost.

That seems to be a common trend with the Irish as well. A lot of lesser sources don't seem to understand that the early Welsh and Irish were quite polygamous, and arbitrarily assign every child to the King's only known wife.

This well regarded (from what I've heard) site also lists Angharad's mother as unknown- http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id187.html
s***@mindspring.com
2018-05-23 15:06:27 UTC
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Post by HWinnSadler
This well regarded (from what I've heard) site also lists Angharad's mother as unknown- http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id187.html
I would rank this site among the very worst. The material produced by "The Center for the Study of Ancient Wales" is essentially the work of a single individual (Darrell Wolcott), who has dressed up his website to make it look like it is the work of a scholarly foundation. His work contains numerous theories which, in my opinion, are little more than a combination of cut-and-paste genealogy put together with bad logic.

Stewart Baldwin
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-05-23 15:28:13 UTC
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Post by s***@mindspring.com
Post by HWinnSadler
This well regarded (from what I've heard) site also lists Angharad's mother as unknown- http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id187.html
I would rank this site among the very worst. The material produced by "The Center for the Study of Ancient Wales" is essentially the work of a single individual (Darrell Wolcott), who has dressed up his website to make it look like it is the work of a scholarly foundation. His work contains numerous theories which, in my opinion, are little more than a combination of cut-and-paste genealogy put together with bad logic.
Stewart Baldwin
I think "very worst" is an exaggeration. While it is the work of a single individual and contains numerous theories, it also contains lots of references, citations and quotes from primary and secondary sources which makes it useful. Its analyses are also useful at times. Some of his theories are also interesting and plausible in my opinion.
s***@mindspring.com
2018-05-23 16:55:16 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by s***@mindspring.com
Post by HWinnSadler
This well regarded (from what I've heard) site also lists Angharad's mother as unknown- http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id187.html
I would rank this site among the very worst. The material produced by "The Center for the Study of Ancient Wales" is essentially the work of a single individual (Darrell Wolcott), who has dressed up his website to make it look like it is the work of a scholarly foundation. His work contains numerous theories which, in my opinion, are little more than a combination of cut-and-paste genealogy put together with bad logic.
Stewart Baldwin
I think "very worst" is an exaggeration. While it is the work of a single individual and contains numerous theories, it also contains lots of references, citations and quotes from primary and secondary sources which makes it useful. Its analyses are also useful at times. Some of his theories are also interesting and plausible in my opinion.
I said "among" the very worst, and I would have settled for just "very bad" if not for the extra effort the author went to creating a "Center for Study" whose only apparent purpose is to make bad genealogy look authoritative. I will admit that I did not read that many pages on the site, because my tolerance for reading really bad work of this sort is low, but I think that I looked at a fairly representative sample, and I saw no reason to believe that it was worthwhile to read any more.

Stewart Baldwin
HWinnSadler
2018-05-23 14:08:10 UTC
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On another note, speaking of the children of the Lord Rhys, this note from the link I provided might be useful to those (including me) who descend from Gruffydd ap Gwenwynwyn:

"5. Marged ferch Lord Rhys, born c. 1169. She married Gwenwynwyn (c. 1155) ap Owain Cyfeiliog[15] of southern Powys about 1182. Nothing more is known of her, but she was not the mother of Gruffudd ap Gwenwynwyn.[16]"
HWinnSadler
2018-05-23 18:32:49 UTC
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I've only visited the site a few times so I'm not as aware about that. Although I started to regret saying that it was well regarded, since a brief exploration of the site led to hearing some odd things, such as that Gwenwynwyn ab Owain Cyfeiliog was actually the son of another Gwenwynwyn- so, it would be Gruffydd ap Gwenwynwyn ap Gwenwynwyn ab Owain Cyfeiliog. And the idea that the History of Gruffydd ap Cynan is the mixed up legend of two separate individuals.

As I'm somewhat new to Medieval Genealogy, it's good to know that the site is unreliable. Maybe the theories I mentioned above are actually possible- I'm nowhere near as learned as either of you are.
r***@gmail.com
2018-05-23 19:42:52 UTC
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For the little my duffer-level experience is worth, I will add that when I compared a line I had put some work into with what Wolcott put up on his site, I came away with the impression that Wolcott’s level of “scholarship” is abysmal. He glides over clear chronological impossibilities, appears to be ignorant of important sources, and yet works very hard to present himself as some kind of expert, often putting down real experts in the field in the process. Don’t waste your time with stuff like this.

Roderick Ward
s***@mindspring.com
2018-05-23 22:27:18 UTC
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For early medieval Wales, I highly recommend the following fairly recent book:

T. M. Charles-Edwards, Wales and the Britons, 350–1064 (Oxford University Press, 2013).

Becoming familiar with a first-rate piece of scholarship like this increases one's ability to spot the "red flags" which generally appear in works of low quality. The bibliography will also lead to other high quality works in the scholarly literature.

Stewart Baldwin
s***@mindspring.com
2018-05-26 16:32:37 UTC
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Post by s***@mindspring.com
T. M. Charles-Edwards, Wales and the Britons, 350–1064 (Oxford University Press, 2013).
For Britain and Ireland in general, I would also recommend the following book.

Pauline Stafford, ed. "A Companion to the Early Middle Ages: Britain and Ireland c. 500-c. 1100" (Blackwell Companions to British History, Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford, 2009).

The 28 chapters cover the various areas within Britain and Ireland, as well as a good selection of other material, written by some of the best known experts in the field. The articles compliment one another very nicely, giving the reader a good overall view of current historical scholarship on the early history of Britain and Ireland.

Stewart Baldwin
Richard Smith
2018-06-01 12:40:48 UTC
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Post by s***@mindspring.com
Post by s***@mindspring.com
T. M. Charles-Edwards, Wales and the Britons, 350–1064 (Oxford University Press, 2013).
For Britain and Ireland in general, I would also recommend the
following book.
Pauline Stafford, ed. "A Companion to the Early Middle Ages: Britain
and Ireland c. 500-c. 1100" (Blackwell Companions to British History,
Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford, 2009).
Thank you very much for these two recommendations. Early mediæval Welsh
genealogy is something I've always wanted to learn a bit more about,
though I admit I'm starting from a pretty low base. I think I may order
copies of these books.

Richard

HWinnSadler
2018-05-24 14:16:04 UTC
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Stewart,
I took a look at the book you mention. From what can I see, it seems like a very good book- will check it out. Thanks for the recommendation!
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