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Andrew Lancaster
2018-05-16 07:10:23 UTC
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Small questions:

1. I am subscribed both originally through Rootsweb for the digests, and now through google. Probably there are many in a similar boat for similar reasons. Recently I noticed that the Rootsweb list seems to have a small amount of new activity, but now completely independent?

2. URLs were quite simple with Rootsweb. Does anyone know a good technique for citing an exact post with a google address? I am sure there must be a way.
d***@gmail.com
2018-05-19 21:11:39 UTC
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Post by Andrew Lancaster
1. I am subscribed both originally through Rootsweb for the digests, and now through google. Probably there are many in a similar boat for similar reasons. Recently I noticed that the Rootsweb list seems to have a small amount of new activity, but now completely independent?
2. URLs were quite simple with Rootsweb. Does anyone know a good technique for citing an exact post with a google address? I am sure there must be a way.
Dear Andrew and other readers:

The Usenet medieval genealogy newsgroup soc.genealogy.medieval is available via a number of sources, a few of which archive it. A common way of accessing it is via Google Groups. It appears that the URLs for threads in the medieval genealogy Google Group are stable. (At least they have been since I started monitoring them two days ago.) I think that Google uses cookies to remember which messages in a thread have been read by you (and it collapses the display of those messages), but you can always click on the subject of a message to open it up if it has been collapsed. I don’t immediately know a way to get Google to display a single message in a thread.

Concerning the gateway between the soc.genealogy.medieval group and the Rootsweb/Ancestry GEN-MEDIEVAL list, we have been told by Rootsweb/Ancestry that they don’t currently plan to restore a gateway between those two. I expect that a consequence of this decision will be much less usage of GEN-MEDIEVAL than during the days when there was a gateway. However, Rootsweb/Ancestry does still have current and older messages for the GEN-MEDIEVAL list (at https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/gen-***@rootsweb.com/). The archives there now go back only to December 2007, but restoration of earlier messages may still be on their agenda.

– Don Stone
Andrew Lancaster
2018-05-20 09:03:09 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Lancaster
1. I am subscribed both originally through Rootsweb for the digests, and now through google. Probably there are many in a similar boat for similar reasons. Recently I noticed that the Rootsweb list seems to have a small amount of new activity, but now completely independent?
2. URLs were quite simple with Rootsweb. Does anyone know a good technique for citing an exact post with a google address? I am sure there must be a way.
The Usenet medieval genealogy newsgroup soc.genealogy.medieval is available via a number of sources, a few of which archive it. A common way of accessing it is via Google Groups. It appears that the URLs for threads in the medieval genealogy Google Group are stable. (At least they have been since I started monitoring them two days ago.) I think that Google uses cookies to remember which messages in a thread have been read by you (and it collapses the display of those messages), but you can always click on the subject of a message to open it up if it has been collapsed. I don’t immediately know a way to get Google to display a single message in a thread.
– Don Stone
I guess in practice it now means we have two lists?

If anyone knows a way to post links to individual messages, please say so, because I have certainly made an effort in the past to collect such links for families I was looking at (we have a lot of long threads, where specific positions are made at different moments) and all those old links are no longer functioning.
Jan Wolfe
2018-05-20 15:13:08 UTC
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On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 5:03:11 AM UTC-4, Andrew Lancaster wrote:
...
Post by Andrew Lancaster
If anyone knows a way to post links to individual messages, please say so, because I have certainly made an effort in the past to collect such links for families I was looking at (we have a lot of long threads, where specific positions are made at different moments) and all those old links are no longer functioning.
In Google Groups, when viewing the specific post, click on the down arrow next to the reply button (upper right corner of the post). Select "link" in the menu, and then copy the link.
Andrew Lancaster
2018-05-20 20:48:02 UTC
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Post by Jan Wolfe
...
Post by Andrew Lancaster
If anyone knows a way to post links to individual messages, please say so, because I have certainly made an effort in the past to collect such links for families I was looking at (we have a lot of long threads, where specific positions are made at different moments) and all those old links are no longer functioning.
In Google Groups, when viewing the specific post, click on the down arrow next to the reply button (upper right corner of the post). Select "link" in the menu, and then copy the link.
Seems too simple! Thanks!
Chris Pitt Lewis
2018-05-20 20:03:55 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Lancaster
1. I am subscribed both originally through Rootsweb for the digests, and now through google. Probably there are many in a similar boat for similar reasons. Recently I noticed that the Rootsweb list seems to have a small amount of new activity, but now completely independent?
2. URLs were quite simple with Rootsweb. Does anyone know a good technique for citing an exact post with a google address? I am sure there must be a way.
The Usenet medieval genealogy newsgroup soc.genealogy.medieval is available via a number of sources, a few of which archive it. A common way of accessing it is via Google Groups. It appears that the URLs for threads in the medieval genealogy Google Group are stable. (At least they have been since I started monitoring them two days ago.) I think that Google uses cookies to remember which messages in a thread have been read by you (and it collapses the display of those messages), but you can always click on the subject of a message to open it up if it has been collapsed. I don’t immediately know a way to get Google to display a single message in a thread.
– Don Stone
Independently (presumably) of the absence of the gateway, there is a
problem that messages posted to GEN-MEDIEVAL and other Rootsweb lists
formerly gatewayed to Usenet are not being propagated to everyone
(anyone?) subscribed to the list.

When Rootsweb came back up at the beginning of March, I immediately
resubscribed to GEN-MEDIEVAL and several other lists, including two
other formerly gatewayed lists (GENBRIT and CARIBBEAN) as well as
various ungatewayed lists.

I have logged into Rootsweb today and it confirms that I am subscribed
to them all.

I can see from the Rootsweb archives that a few messages have been sent
to each of GEN-MEDIEVAL, GENBRIT and CARIBBEAN since March, but I have
received none of them. By contrast, I have received the messages posted
to other lists that were never gatewayed.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Don Stone
2018-05-20 21:27:14 UTC
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Post by Chris Pitt Lewis
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Lancaster
1. I am subscribed both originally through Rootsweb for the digests, and now through google. Probably there are many in a similar boat for similar reasons. Recently I noticed that the Rootsweb list seems to have a small amount of new activity, but now completely independent?
2. URLs were quite simple with Rootsweb. Does anyone know a good technique for citing an exact post with a google address? I am sure there must be a way.
The Usenet medieval genealogy newsgroup soc.genealogy.medieval is available via a number of sources, a few of which archive it. A common way of accessing it is via Google Groups. It appears that the URLs for threads in the medieval genealogy Google Group are stable. (At least they have been since I started monitoring them two days ago.) I think that Google uses cookies to remember which messages in a thread have been read by you (and it collapses the display of those messages), but you can always click on the subject of a message to open it up if it has been collapsed. I don’t immediately know a way to get Google to display a single message in a thread.
– Don Stone
Independently (presumably) of the absence of the gateway, there is a
problem that messages posted to GEN-MEDIEVAL and other Rootsweb lists
formerly gatewayed to Usenet are not being propagated to everyone
(anyone?) subscribed to the list.
When Rootsweb came back up at the beginning of March, I immediately
resubscribed to GEN-MEDIEVAL and several other lists, including two
other formerly gatewayed lists (GENBRIT and CARIBBEAN) as well as
various ungatewayed lists.
I have logged into Rootsweb today and it confirms that I am subscribed
to them all.
I can see from the Rootsweb archives that a few messages have been sent
to each of GEN-MEDIEVAL, GENBRIT and CARIBBEAN since March, but I have
received none of them. By contrast, I have received the messages posted
to other lists that were never gatewayed.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis
---
Thanks, Jan, for the information about how to get the URL of a single message in a thread. It turns out that this approach gives a URL which displays the whole thread but with the target message opened -- a good idea, I think. But the recent situation with the Rootsweb GEN-MEDIEVAL archives (now being reconstructed by Rootsweb/Ancestry) shows that URLs for messages in archives can't be relied on indefinitely. So if you want to cite a medieval genealogy message in a way that has a better chance of functioning 10 or 20 or more years from now, then give not only the URL (which is specific to Google) but also the newsgroup name (soc.genealogy.medieval) and the message's subject, author and date (which allows access to the message in other Usenet archives).

Thanks, Chris, for the information that you have received messages from Rootsweb lists that weren't gatewayed but haven't received messages from lists that were. I will convey this to Rootsweb/Ancestry.

-- Don Stone
Andrew Lancaster
2018-05-21 09:23:21 UTC
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Post by Don Stone
Post by Chris Pitt Lewis
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Lancaster
1. I am subscribed both originally through Rootsweb for the digests, and now through google. Probably there are many in a similar boat for similar reasons. Recently I noticed that the Rootsweb list seems to have a small amount of new activity, but now completely independent?
2. URLs were quite simple with Rootsweb. Does anyone know a good technique for citing an exact post with a google address? I am sure there must be a way.
The Usenet medieval genealogy newsgroup soc.genealogy.medieval is available via a number of sources, a few of which archive it. A common way of accessing it is via Google Groups. It appears that the URLs for threads in the medieval genealogy Google Group are stable. (At least they have been since I started monitoring them two days ago.) I think that Google uses cookies to remember which messages in a thread have been read by you (and it collapses the display of those messages), but you can always click on the subject of a message to open it up if it has been collapsed. I don’t immediately know a way to get Google to display a single message in a thread.
– Don Stone
Independently (presumably) of the absence of the gateway, there is a
problem that messages posted to GEN-MEDIEVAL and other Rootsweb lists
formerly gatewayed to Usenet are not being propagated to everyone
(anyone?) subscribed to the list.
When Rootsweb came back up at the beginning of March, I immediately
resubscribed to GEN-MEDIEVAL and several other lists, including two
other formerly gatewayed lists (GENBRIT and CARIBBEAN) as well as
various ungatewayed lists.
I have logged into Rootsweb today and it confirms that I am subscribed
to them all.
I can see from the Rootsweb archives that a few messages have been sent
to each of GEN-MEDIEVAL, GENBRIT and CARIBBEAN since March, but I have
received none of them. By contrast, I have received the messages posted
to other lists that were never gatewayed.
--
Chris Pitt Lewis
---
Thanks, Jan, for the information about how to get the URL of a single message in a thread. It turns out that this approach gives a URL which displays the whole thread but with the target message opened -- a good idea, I think. But the recent situation with the Rootsweb GEN-MEDIEVAL archives (now being reconstructed by Rootsweb/Ancestry) shows that URLs for messages in archives can't be relied on indefinitely. So if you want to cite a medieval genealogy message in a way that has a better chance of functioning 10 or 20 or more years from now, then give not only the URL (which is specific to Google) but also the newsgroup name (soc.genealogy.medieval) and the message's subject, author and date (which allows access to the message in other Usenet archives).
Thanks, Chris, for the information that you have received messages from Rootsweb lists that weren't gatewayed but haven't received messages from lists that were. I will convey this to Rootsweb/Ancestry.
-- Don Stone
Good advice. I will post this at G2G on Wikitree, because the small community of people who work on medieval profiles do cite this list a lot and I know a lot of our links will now be broken. (If nothing else Wikitree can be a handy place to store links etc.)
Jan Wolfe
2018-05-21 16:00:20 UTC
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On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 5:27:21 PM UTC-4, Don Stone wrote:
...
Post by Don Stone
Thanks, Jan, for the information about how to get the URL of a single message in a thread. It turns out that this approach gives a URL which displays the whole thread but with the target message opened -- a good idea, I think. But the recent situation with the Rootsweb GEN-MEDIEVAL archives (now being reconstructed by Rootsweb/Ancestry) shows that URLs for messages in archives can't be relied on indefinitely. So if you want to cite a medieval genealogy message in a way that has a better chance of functioning 10 or 20 or more years from now, then give not only the URL (which is specific to Google) but also the newsgroup name (soc.genealogy.medieval) and the message's subject, author and date (which allows access to the message in other Usenet archives).
...
Post by Don Stone
-- Don Stone
Yes, the date of the post and the name of the poster are important to preserve. It has been common for the content of posts to meander away from the topic of the thread. In the past I typically have not included the topic of the thread in my citations. How important would the topic (thread title) information be in other usenet archives if one had the date, poster's name, and the usenet group name?

The old urls in the gen-medieval archive had a useful feature of preserving at least the month and year of the post as part of the url. Unfortunately neither the new rootsweb gen-medieval urls nor the google groups soc.genealogy.medieval urls provide date information, although both urls provide a clue to the identity of the group (gen-medieval in the rootsweb url or soc.genealogy.medieval in the google groups url).

I have just started the process of replacing the gen-medieval links in my file that are now defunct. With the first one I tried, on both rootsweb and google groups, I was immediately able to find the post by searching for a phrase quoted from the post. So, perhaps that is another citation suggestion to consider, quote at least some portion of the post.

I haven't used any of the other usenet archives. Is there some information that would be useful for me to know about them? Many soc.genealogy.medieval users have been posting to the group on google groups in the recent several months since rootsweb failed. A few posts have appeared on the reinstated gen-medieval group site on rootsweb. Was it just the google group that was formerly gatewayed with gen-medieval? Or was there a gateway to other usenet archives or readers?
taf
2018-05-21 23:02:10 UTC
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Post by Jan Wolfe
Was it just the google group that was formerly gatewayed with
gen-medieval? Or was there a gateway to other usenet archives
or readers?
It was the Usenet group soc.genealogy.medieval that was gatewayed to the mailing list GEN-MEDIEVAL. The 'Google group' is not a stand-alone entity, but just a Google-hosted web interface and archive for the soc.gen.med Usenet group. Any post made to soc.gen.med through Google Group goes to Usenet, and it used to be picked up from Usenet (not Google Groups) for gatewaying to GEN-MED. GEN-MED as now been isolated from all other venues.

taf

taf
Don Stone (don@donstonetech.com)
2018-05-21 23:37:08 UTC
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Post by Jan Wolfe
...
Yes, the date of the post and the name of the poster are important to preserve. It has been common for the content of posts to meander away from the topic of the thread. In the past I typically have not included the topic of the thread in my citations. How important would the topic (thread title) information be in other usenet archives if one had the date, poster's name, and the usenet group name?
The old urls in the gen-medieval archive had a useful feature of preserving at least the month and year of the post as part of the url. Unfortunately neither the new rootsweb gen-medieval urls nor the google groups soc.genealogy.medieval urls provide date information, although both urls provide a clue to the identity of the group (gen-medieval in the rootsweb url or soc.genealogy.medieval in the google groups url).
I have just started the process of replacing the gen-medieval links in my file that are now defunct. With the first one I tried, on both rootsweb and google groups, I was immediately able to find the post by searching for a phrase quoted from the post. So, perhaps that is another citation suggestion to consider, quote at least some portion of the post.
I haven't used any of the other usenet archives. Is there some information that would be useful for me to know about them? Many soc.genealogy.medieval users have been posting to the group on google groups in the recent several months since rootsweb failed. A few posts have appeared on the reinstated gen-medieval group site on rootsweb. Was it just the google group that was formerly gatewayed with gen-medieval? Or was there a gateway to other usenet archives or readers?
Jan,

Responding to your last paragraph, the only other Usenet archive (besides Google) with which I am familiar is https://www.theusenetarchive.com/, which is not free.

The now-defunct gateway was between gen-medieval and Usenet.

-- Don
Jan Wolfe
2018-05-22 15:59:33 UTC
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On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 7:37:10 PM UTC-4, Don Stone ... wrote:
...
Post by Don Stone (***@donstonetech.com)
Responding to your last paragraph, the only other Usenet archive (besides Google) with which I am familiar is https://www.theusenetarchive.com/, which is not free.
The now-defunct gateway was between gen-medieval and Usenet.
-- Don
Thanks, Don. Now it makes sense.

Regarding the Google Groups URLs, I see two patterns (I'll use an example from the recent RD900 topic):

This form with "#!topic" between "forum" and "soc.genealogy.medieval"
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/VHYqysvUMxU
opens on the most recent post in the topic.

This form with "#!msg" between "forum" and "soc.genealogy.medieval" and the id of a specific post at the end of the url,
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/VHYqysvUMxU/TgcMfIKwCQAJ
opens on a specific post in the topic.

The link that Google Groups provides for the specific post is actually
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/VHYqysvUMxU/TgcMfIKwCQAJ
but the "d/msg" part of the url appears to get translated to "forum/#!msg" when one pastes the url into a browser.

That brings up the question of which form of the url will be stable.

An alternative url for the topic is
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/VHYqysvUMxU
When this url is pasted into a browser, "d/topic" is changed to "forum/#!topic" and, as above, opens on the most recent post in the topic.

At the top of the page for a topic, on the top left under the topic name and to the right of the "number of posts and number of contributors" information, there is a down arrow. If one clicks on that down arrow, one of the menu choices is "Link to this topic." The url provided is in the "d/topic" form, but with the word "discussion" at the end,
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/VHYqysvUMxU/discussion
With or without "discussion" at the end of the url, this url opens on the most recent post in the topic (and the "d/topic" part is changed to "forum/#!topic" when pasted into a browser.

Anyone know how to find out which form of the url Google intends to be the permanent form or is the preferred form to use in a citation? "#" may be a query character (rather than a standard character) in a url. Hopefully the alphanumeric string for the topic and the alphanumeric string for the specific post are intended to be permanent!
Richard Smith
2018-05-22 21:08:55 UTC
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Post by Don Stone (***@donstonetech.com)
Responding to your last paragraph, the only other Usenet archive
(besides Google) with which I am familiar is
https://www.theusenetarchive.com/, which is not free.
There's one for the period Aug 2005 to Dec 2014 here:

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/

I find it far better than Google Groups or the (now dead) Rootsweb
GEN-MEDIEVAL gateway.

Richard
d***@gmail.com
2018-05-23 04:03:45 UTC
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Post by Richard Smith
Post by Don Stone (***@donstonetech.com)
Responding to your last paragraph, the only other Usenet archive
(besides Google) with which I am familiar is
https://www.theusenetarchive.com/, which is not free.
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/
I find it far better than Google Groups or the (now dead) Rootsweb
GEN-MEDIEVAL gateway.
Richard
Richard, thanks for reminding us about Derkeiler, which archives the soc.genealogy.medieval (s.g.m) newsgroup, though in a somewhat different way from Google Groups.

The Rootsweb Gen-Medieval (Gen-Med) mailing list archive will have (or should have) the same content as the above two newsgroup archives for the period when the newsgroup s.g.m and the mailing list Gen-Med were gated (meaning that a message sent to the newsgroup would be copied to the mailing list and vice-versa).

Two important operations for an archive are search and browse. One might ask whether browse is really necessary if you can search for whatever topic you are interested in. I think browse is necessary, because often there are various words that describe the same topic and often various spellings for names or titles. I may start researching a topic by doing a search, but then I like to browse the archives near the search hits to see, for example, other messages in the same thread (which don’t necessarily contain the search terms) or new related threads that have been started using somewhat different terminology or having a slightly different focus.

Derkeiler facilitates browsing by showing the tree/hierarchy of threads and messages, as the old version of the Rootsweb G-M archives did. Specifically, Derkeiler shows which message a given message is responding to (unless the given message is starting a new thread) by indenting the given message under the one it is responding to.

This tree information helps me explore the archives more efficiently. If I can see the tree, I like to start with the highest level (least indented) relevant message and then browse among the responses indented under it, using the browser’s coloring of visited links to tell me which of the responding messages I have read. Thus I feel better oriented than if I am working through a long list not displayed as a tree; i.e., I have visual cues that help me see how much I have read and how much remains to be read.

The Derkeiler archive, like the Rootsweb archive, is organized by year and month, allowing you to quickly go to a message if you have its date. I haven’t discovered how to go to a particular year and month in the Google archive, but the answer may be somewhere in the Google Groups help at https://support.google.com/groups#topic=.
s***@mindspring.com
2018-05-23 16:59:36 UTC
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Is the gateway back up? I have been getting e-mails of s.g.m postings for a couple of hours now, including one I posted to s.g.m at Google Groups just a few minutes ago.

Stewart Baldwin
taf
2018-05-24 04:02:38 UTC
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Stewart,

If that is true it is good news, but I cannot confirm it. As subscriber, I am one of those who has not received any messages from the mailing list since it went back on line.

taf
don@donstonetech.com
2018-05-24 14:00:36 UTC
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Post by taf
Stewart,
If that is true it is good news, but I cannot confirm it. As subscriber, I am one of those who has not received any messages from the mailing list since it went back on line.
taf
Unfortunately, there is no gateway. I think what is happening is that when you make an s.g.m posting at Google Groups, Google emails a copy of your posting to you. Also, Google Groups lets you subscribe to a topic, so that when posts are made with that subject, they are emailed to you.

-- Don Stone
r***@yahoo.com
2018-06-13 18:43:13 UTC
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"RootsWeb Mailing List Archives Unavailable"

https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/gen-***@rootsweb.com


Not this again ...
d***@gmail.com
2018-06-13 19:17:42 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
"RootsWeb Mailing List Archives Unavailable"
Not this again ...
I am appending more information (from Anne Mitchell, sent to the Listowners list).

-- Don Stone

The Archives have been unbearably slow and dragging the whole system down. We are going to shut them down for a few weeks and rewrite them. Everything else will work the same and emails that are sent will be available in the Archives when they come back up. For those of you that look at the URLs, everything that is hyperkitty is the archives.

You will see a page with this text, when you hit the archives:

The RootsWeb Mailing Lists Archives are currently unavailable as we work to solve performance problems and create a better viewing experience. This will take a few weeks.

Emails can still be sent and distributed and list owners can still perform admin functions.

Emails that you send while the Archives are unavailable will be in the Archives when they are brought back up.
Jan Wolfe
2018-06-14 13:22:57 UTC
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In the absence of the old system, I find the following settings in Google Groups useful:

In "My groups" one can choose to receive daily summaries by email. The daily summaries show each topic with new activity and a few words of each new post with links the topic and the new posts. One can alternatively choose to receive an email of each post.

When one is looking at a topic in the group, there is a "My settings" drop down box in the upper right corner, just to the left of the "Settings" drop down box. In "My settings" menu under Membership and email settings, there is a box to select "Automatically subscribe me to email updates when I post to a topic."

In the same "My settings" menu under "My topic email subscriptions" there is a box to deselect a topic to which one has subscribed (in case the topic goes off in an uninteresting direction).
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