Discussion:
Early Chancery Proceeding - Help needed with Date
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Colin Withers
2017-06-09 17:05:08 UTC
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I have been checking the following early Chancery Proceeding:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=C%201%2F68%2F191&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv

The Discovery Catalogue says the date is 1386-1486 (i.e. no date), so
yesterday at TNA I obtained a scan of the document.

Loading Image...

The scan is not 100% clear, but is about 80% legible, and there appears
to be a date (but maybe without a year) on the second line from the
bottom, on the left.

Can anyone make out this date?

Thanks,

Wibs
Jan Wolfe
2017-06-09 17:16:08 UTC
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Post by Colin Withers
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=C%201%2F68%2F191&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv
The Discovery Catalogue says the date is 1386-1486 (i.e. no date), so
yesterday at TNA I obtained a scan of the document.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcm9aogbtw95g7a/C_1_68_191%20-%20Cliderhowe%20v%20Payne.jpg?dl=0
The scan is not 100% clear, but is about 80% legible, and there appears
to be a date (but maybe without a year) on the second line from the
bottom, on the left.
Can anyone make out this date?
Thanks,
Wibs
An image is also available on AALT, see
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no68/IMG_0221.htm
Colin Withers
2017-06-09 17:31:35 UTC
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Post by Jan Wolfe
An image is also available on AALT, see
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no68/IMG_0221.htm
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Thanks for that Jan, that image is much clearer.

Cheers


Colin
Jan Wolfe
2017-06-09 17:56:45 UTC
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Post by Colin Withers
Post by Jan Wolfe
An image is also available on AALT, see
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no68/IMG_0221.htm
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Thanks for that Jan, that image is much clearer.
Cheers
Colin
There are two men, John Lylleston and John Shelton, of Middlesex, listed at the bottom right of the document. What is the roll of these two men in the case? A John Lylleston is named to collect aid in Middlesex for the marriage of Blanche in 1401 in the fine rolls of Henry IV:
http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/1/16/calendaroffiner12greauoft/calendaroffiner12greauoft.pdf#page=162
Jan Wolfe
2017-06-09 18:11:20 UTC
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Post by Jan Wolfe
Post by Colin Withers
Post by Jan Wolfe
An image is also available on AALT, see
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no68/IMG_0221.htm
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Thanks for that Jan, that image is much clearer.
Cheers
Colin
http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/1/16/calendaroffiner12greauoft/calendaroffiner12greauoft.pdf#page=162
A John Lylleston of Middlesex is mentioned in the close rolls in 1393:
Sept. 20. Westminster. To the sheriff of Cantebrigge. Writ of supersedeas, and order by mainprise of John Lylleston of Middlesex, John Wilteshire of Cambridgeshire, Robert Goderiche of London and Thomas Blakehay of Devon to set free William Bertilmewe of Cantebrigge, if taken at suit of the king and John Penteney for leaving John Penteney's service before the term agreed.

A John Lylleston died in London before 1 July 1397, see https://www.british-history.ac.uk/plea-memoranda-rolls/vol3/pp248-259
Colin Withers
2017-06-09 19:24:37 UTC
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Post by Jan Wolfe
Post by Jan Wolfe
http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/1/16/calendaroffiner12greauoft/calendaroffiner12greauoft.pdf#page=162
Sept. 20. Westminster. To the sheriff of Cantebrigge. Writ of supersedeas, and order by mainprise of John Lylleston of Middlesex, John Wilteshire of Cambridgeshire, Robert Goderiche of London and Thomas Blakehay of Devon to set free William Bertilmewe of Cantebrigge, if taken at suit of the king and John Penteney for leaving John Penteney's service before the term agreed.
A John Lylleston died in London before 1 July 1397, see https://www.british-history.ac.uk/plea-memoranda-rolls/vol3/pp248-259
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The two names at the bottom of the suit are often the names of the
pledges on behalf of the plaintiff to sue the case.

Although any male adult could mainpern, it was a very common and popular
way for Chancery clerks and other King's Clerks to supplement their
incomes, so often the first name is of a King's clerk, and given that
the mainpernors were all of different counties, and not one was from the
home county of the prisoner, it would appear, on the face of it, that
they were all probably king's clerks (but not Chancery clerks).

John Cliderhowe (Clitherhowe, Clitherow) was a Chancery clerk, active
from around 1373 until 1418 when he disappears from the Chancery rolls.
If the John Lylleston who died before 1 Jul 1397 is the same as one of
the pledges in the Chancery suit, then that constrains the date quite a
lot (21 years at least).

Thanks for the interest :)

Colin (Wibs)
Colin Withers
2017-06-09 19:27:33 UTC
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John Cliderhowe's main extra-curricular activities were in mainperning,
and procuring pardons, especially in cases of homicide!

Colin
Jan Wolfe
2017-06-09 19:51:08 UTC
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Thanks Matt and Colin for your explanations about the people listed as pledges. Perhaps it would be useful to have an index of the pledges in these Chancery cases. The date ranges of many of the cases could potentially be narrowed with such information.
Vance Mead
2017-06-10 11:48:39 UTC
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Out of curiosity, what is the reason for the uncertain dating of early Chancery proceeding? Were they taken out of sequence by a 19th century archivist? This is what happened with the 14th century parliamentary petitions. They were taken out of their original order and arranged by county and alphabetically by the name of petitioner.
Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
2017-06-09 17:18:36 UTC
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I'm afraid it's a sum of money, Colin. £20 and 10 marks.

But the document refers to John Cliderhowe of Swanscombe, one of the clerks of Chancery, which should enable the date to be narrowed down somewhat by external evidence. A quick google suggest he was living in the first decade of the 15th century - but I suspect it is he you're interested in, and want to use this document to get a date for him.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: GEN-MEDIEVAL [mailto:gen-medieval-bounces+mllt1=***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Colin Withers
Sent: 09 June 2017 18:05
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Early Chancery Proceeding - Help needed with Date

I have been checking the following early Chancery Proceeding:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=C%201%2F68%2F191&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv

The Discovery Catalogue says the date is 1386-1486 (i.e. no date), so yesterday at TNA I obtained a scan of the document.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcm9aogbtw95g7a/C_1_68_191%20-%20Cliderhowe%20v%20Payne.jpg?dl=0

The scan is not 100% clear, but is about 80% legible, and there appears to be a date (but maybe without a year) on the second line from the bottom, on the left.

Can anyone make out this date?

Thanks,

Wibs







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Colin Withers
2017-06-09 17:30:37 UTC
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Post by Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
I'm afraid it's a sum of money, Colin. £20 and 10 marks.
But the document refers to John Cliderhowe of Swanscombe, one of the clerks of Chancery, which should enable the date to be narrowed down somewhat by external evidence. A quick google suggest he was living in the first decade of the 15th century - but I suspect it is he you're interested in, and want to use this document to get a date for him.
Matt
Yes Matt, it is John Cliderhowe I am interested in, the Chancery Clerk.
I have finished his biography, with just the exception of a date for
this Chancery suit he was involved in.

That AALT image is much clearer. I have now lost confidence in the
document camera in the Map Room. The model specs give it a very high
resolution, but the staff must have set it much lower, as I get slightly
fuzzy images consistently.

Thanks

Colin
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