Discussion:
C. T. Clay: The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom
Add Reply
John P. Ravilious
2007-08-08 00:59:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Tuesday, 7 August, 2007


Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al.,

Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley
had
kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys
of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather
more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this
family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part.

The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and
well
documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation
chart. The first 10 generations are given below.

The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the
identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the
Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to
the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by
Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be
seen in the SGM archives [1]. As to his ancestry, Clay wrote:

' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early
Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the
ancestor from whom this family was actually descended
was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning
of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the
lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de
Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale
(see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on
this matter.
The first point, then, which arises is the parentage
of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends
to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de
Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last
male representative of the first Lascy house, and who
was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the
grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from
whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is
not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual
proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr.
Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert
de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in
Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram,
through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due
to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in
benefiting an illegitimate son of his
predecessor. ' [2]

If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of
Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then
have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci
(alleged) families.

Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence
which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the
Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any
relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome.
Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations
of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and
Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know.

Cheers,

John *


_______________________________________________________

LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3]



[Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of
1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram
Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231
in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I
I
_________________________I
I
[c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY =
of Cromwellbottom I
living c. 1246 I
I
________________________I________________
I I
[c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the
living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk
I
_______________I
I
[c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of
m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland
I widow in 1309-10
________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
[c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET
d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16
= (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335
= (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de
living 1369 de Tong Thornhill
I I
________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____
I I I I I
[c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de
30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill
Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby
in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud
I
_______I
I
[c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY =
I
__________________I _ _ _ _ _ _
I I
[c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck
d. 1474, married I of Wakefield
twice I b. c. 1390

_________________I______________________________________
I I I I I I
I
[c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU.
I
1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = =
I
c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John
I
= Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish-
I
dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth
I
William Mowbray Bank in Amyas
I
Scargill Southowram
I
I________
____I
____I____________________ I
I I I
[c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU.
1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian
= Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill
Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby
of Liversedge
I
I



NOTES

[1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with
Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text
provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents
and Feudal Aids, p. 39.

[2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and
Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The
Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468.

[3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474.


* John P. Ravilious
John P. Ravilious
2007-08-08 01:06:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John P. Ravilious
Tuesday, 7 August, 2007
Hello All,

The following is a modification to the chart previously posted,
to account for a 'marginal error'.

Cheers,

John



LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3]



[Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of
1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram
Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231
in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I
I
_________________________I
I
[c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY =
of Cromwellbottom I
living c. 1246 I
I
________________________I________________
I I
[c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the
living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk
I
_______________I
I
[c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of
m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland
I widow in 1309-10
________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
[c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET
d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16
= (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335
= (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de
living 1369 de Tong Thornhill
I I
________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____
I I I I I
[c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de
30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill
Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby
in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud
I
_______I
I
[c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY =
I
__________________I _ _ _ _ _ _
I I
[c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck
d. 1474, married I of Wakefield
twice I b. c. 1390
_________________I______________________________________
I I I I I I I
[c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU. I
1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = = I
c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John I
= Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish- I
dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth I
William Mowbray Bank in Amyas I
Scargill Southowram I
I________ ____I
____I____________________ I
I I I
[c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU.
1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian
= Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill
Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby
of Liversedge
I
I
John P. Ravilious
2007-08-08 01:47:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Tuesday, 7 August, 2007


Dear Michael,

A long, long time ago (not in a galaxy far away) you had
queried re: the Lacys of Cromwellbotham, as to any heraldic
evidence that would connect them with the Lacy family of
Pontefract. I have found my copy of Alvahn Holmes' work on
the Farrars, which indicates the arms of Lacy of Cromwellbotham
were "Argent, 6 ogresses (pellets) 3, 2, 1, sable" [1].
This is supported by Papworth, which gives the following
for the Lacys and others:

' Arg. a mullet betw. six ogresses three two and
one. LACY, V.
Arg. six ogresses three two and one. BENWELL,
Oxford; and London, 1785. BEXWELL. FOY
or LA FOY. LACY, Melton Mowbray, co.
Leicester; Cromwell and Beverley, co. York.
TILL. ' [2]

I find that C. T. Clay noted the heraldic evidence concerning
the connection of the Lacys of Melton Mowbray, as well as of the
Brearley family, to the Lacys of Cromwellbotham. He noted
concerning the conjectured descent of Lacy of Melton Mowbray from
Richard Lacy that the Visitation pedigree of the family gave the
arms as " Argent, six pellets, three, two, and one, a crescent
surmounted by a mullet gules for difference." As to the Brearley
branch, Clay wrote that "This branch at Glover's Visitation bore
the same arms, i.e. of the elder branch of Cromwellbottom, with
a crescent gules for difference; but in Constable's Roll of
1558 (Tonge's Visitation, p. xiii) the difference is given as
a mullet sable" [3].

Clearly (and unfortunately) this provides no connection to
the Lacys of Pontefract.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] Alvahn Holmes, The Farrar's Island Family, p. 95.

[2] J. W. Papworth, An Alphabetical Dictionary of Coats of
Arms Belonging to Families in Great Britain and
Ireland, p. 1053.

[3] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and
Leventhorpe, Miscellanea 28:482, notes 1 and 2.


* John P. Ravilious
Post by John P. Ravilious
Tuesday, 7 August, 2007
Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al.,
Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley
had
kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys
of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather
more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this
family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part.
The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and
well
documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation
chart. The first 10 generations are given below.
The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the
identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the
Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to
the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by
Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be
' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early
Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the
ancestor from whom this family was actually descended
was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning
of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the
lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de
Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale
(see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on
this matter.
The first point, then, which arises is the parentage
of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends
to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de
Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last
male representative of the first Lascy house, and who
was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the
grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from
whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is
not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual
proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr.
Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert
de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in
Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram,
through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due
to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in
benefiting an illegitimate son of his
predecessor. ' [2]
If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of
Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then
have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci
(alleged) families.
Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence
which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the
Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any
relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome.
Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations
of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and
Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know.
Cheers,
John *
_______________________________________________________
LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3]
[Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of
1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram
Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231
in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I
I
_________________________I
I
[c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY =
of Cromwellbottom I
living c. 1246 I
I
________________________I________________
I I
[c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the
living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk
I
_______________I
I
[c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of
m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland
I widow in 1309-10
________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
[c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET
d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16
= (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335
= (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de
living 1369 de Tong Thornhill
I I
________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____
I I I I I
[c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de
30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill
Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby
in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud
I
_______I
I
[c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY =
I
__________________I _ _ _ _ _ _
I I
[c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck
d. 1474, married I of Wakefield
twice I b. c. 1390
_________________I______________________________________
I I I I I I
I
[c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU.
I
1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = =
I
c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John
I
= Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish-
I
dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth
I
William Mowbray Bank in Amyas
I
Scargill Southowram
I
I________
____I
____I____________________ I
I I I
[c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU.
1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian
= Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill
Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby
of Liversedge
I
I
NOTES
[1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with
Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text
provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents
and Feudal Aids, p. 39.
[2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and
Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The
Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468.
[3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474.
* John P. Ravilious
b***@gmail.com
2017-05-25 16:54:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John P. Ravilious
Tuesday, 7 August, 2007
Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al.,
Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley
had
kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys
of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather
more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this
family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part.
The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and
well
documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation
chart. The first 10 generations are given below.
The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the
identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the
Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to
the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by
Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be
' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early
Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the
ancestor from whom this family was actually descended
was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning
of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the
lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de
Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale
(see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on
this matter.
The first point, then, which arises is the parentage
of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends
to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de
Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last
male representative of the first Lascy house, and who
was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the
grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from
whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is
not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual
proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr.
Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert
de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in
Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram,
through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due
to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in
benefiting an illegitimate son of his
predecessor. ' [2]
If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of
Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then
have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci
(alleged) families.
Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence
which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the
Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any
relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome.
Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations
of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and
Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know.
Cheers,
John *
_______________________________________________________
LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3]
[Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of
1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram
Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231
in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I
I
_________________________I
I
[c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY =
of Cromwellbottom I
living c. 1246 I
I
________________________I________________
I I
[c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the
living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk
I
_______________I
I
[c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of
m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland
I widow in 1309-10
________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
[c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET
d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16
= (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335
= (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de
living 1369 de Tong Thornhill
I I
________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____
I I I I I
[c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de
30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill
Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby
in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud
I
_______I
I
[c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY =
I
__________________I _ _ _ _ _ _
I I
[c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck
d. 1474, married I of Wakefield
twice I b. c. 1390
_________________I______________________________________
I I I I I I
I
[c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU.
I
1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = =
I
c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John
I
= Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish-
I
dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth
I
William Mowbray Bank in Amyas
I
Scargill Southowram
I
I________
____I
____I____________________ I
I I I
[c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU.
1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian
= Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill
Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby
of Liversedge
I
I
NOTES
[1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with
Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text
provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents
and Feudal Aids, p. 39.
[2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and
Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The
Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468.
[3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474.
* John P. Ravilious
Hello John,

I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof?

Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible.

Thanks for any help you might provide me!

Bill H.
John Watson
2017-05-26 06:20:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by John P. Ravilious
Tuesday, 7 August, 2007
Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al.,
Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley
had
kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys
of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather
more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this
family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part.
The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and
well
documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation
chart. The first 10 generations are given below.
The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the
identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the
Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to
the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by
Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be
' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early
Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the
ancestor from whom this family was actually descended
was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning
of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the
lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de
Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale
(see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on
this matter.
The first point, then, which arises is the parentage
of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends
to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de
Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last
male representative of the first Lascy house, and who
was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the
grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from
whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is
not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual
proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr.
Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert
de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in
Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram,
through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due
to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in
benefiting an illegitimate son of his
predecessor. ' [2]
If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of
Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then
have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci
(alleged) families.
Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence
which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the
Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any
relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome.
Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations
of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and
Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know.
Cheers,
John *
_______________________________________________________
LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3]
[Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of
1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram
Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231
in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I
I
_________________________I
I
[c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY =
of Cromwellbottom I
living c. 1246 I
I
________________________I________________
I I
[c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the
living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk
I
_______________I
I
[c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of
m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland
I widow in 1309-10
________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
[c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET
d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16
= (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335
= (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de
living 1369 de Tong Thornhill
I I
________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____
I I I I I
[c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de
30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill
Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby
in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud
I
_______I
I
[c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY =
I
__________________I _ _ _ _ _ _
I I
[c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck
d. 1474, married I of Wakefield
twice I b. c. 1390
_________________I______________________________________
I I I I I I
I
[c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU.
I
1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = =
I
c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John
I
= Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish-
I
dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth
I
William Mowbray Bank in Amyas
I
Scargill Southowram
I
I________
____I
____I____________________ I
I I I
[c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU.
1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian
= Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill
Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby
of Liversedge
I
I
NOTES
[1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with
Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text
provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents
and Feudal Aids, p. 39.
[2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and
Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The
Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468.
[3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474.
* John P. Ravilious
Hello John,
I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof?
Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible.
Thanks for any help you might provide me!
Bill H.
Hi Bill,

you can read the article here: -

Charles T, Clay, "The Family of Cromwellbottom and Leventhorpe," Miscellanea, Thoresby Society, 28-4 (1927), 468-490.
https://archive.org/stream/publicationsv28p4thor#page/468/mode/1up

Regards,

john Watson
b***@gmail.com
2017-05-27 19:41:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Watson
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by John P. Ravilious
Tuesday, 7 August, 2007
Dear Michael, Hal, Brom, et al.,
Quite some time ago (a month of Sundays, or more), Hal Bradley
had
kindly provided me with the text of C. T. Clay's article on the Lacys
of Cromwellbottom [sic]. I had planned on dealing with this rather
more quickly - hopefully any advances that occur in dealing with this
family will outweigh this or any other deficiency on my part.
The article comprises some 23 pages, including a detailed and
well
documented pedigree of the family and a useful one page 16 generation
chart. The first 10 generations are given below.
The earliest issue dealt with by Clay was that of the
identification and ancestry of Gilbert de Lacy, first of the
Cromwellbotham family. Gilbert de Lacy's career, esp. with regard to
the lands he held in the lordship of Rochdale, was also dealt with by
Farrer in his Lancashire Inquests. Details of this discussion can be
' The late Mr. William Farrer, in a note in his Early
Yorkshire Charters (iii, 405), has indicated that the
ancestor from whom this family was actually descended
was a certain Gilbert de Lascy, who, at the beginning
of the thirteenth century, held a sixth part of the
lordship of Rochdale in right of his wife, Agnes de
Owram; and the Lancashire evidence relating to Rochdale
(see below in the pedigree) seems quite conclusive on
this matter.
The first point, then, which arises is the parentage
of Gilbert. The evidence which is produced below tends
to prove that he was an illegitimate son of Robert de
Lascy, lord of Pontefract, who died in 1193, the last
male representative of the first Lascy house, and who
was succeeded in the Lascy fee by Roger de Lascy, the
grandson of his first cousin, Albreda de Lisours, from
whom the second Lascy line descended. The evidence is
not sufficiently conclusive to amount to an actual
proof; but its authenticity was accepted by Mr.
Farrer. Certainly Gilbert witnessed several of Robert
de Lascy's charters, and was granted land by Robert in
Rushton in Bowland. His marriage with Agnes de Owram,
through whom he obtained a sixth of Rochdale, was due
to Roger de Lascy, who may have had special motives in
benefiting an illegitimate son of his
predecessor. ' [2]
If this identification is correct, the Lacy family of
Cromwellbotham (and the cadets of Brearley, etc.) would then
have further ancestry among the earlier de Lacy and de Vesci
(alleged) families.
Further posts with regard to Clay's article, further evidence
which has appeared or will appear, and related issues concerning the
Lacy family and their near relations will follow. As always, any
relevant additional documentation, comment or criticism is welcome.
Also, should anyone have an interest in the subsequent 6 generations
of the genealogical chart in the article (Lacy of Cromwellbotham and
Leventhorpe, ca. 1499 to 1665), please let me know.
Cheers,
John *
_______________________________________________________
LACY OF CROMWELLBOTTOM [3]
[Born c. I. GILBERT DE LACY = Agnes, dau. of
1150-70] (?) illegitimate son of Robert de I John de Owram
Lascy (d. 1193), had 1/3 of Rochdale I living 1231
in frank-marriage; m. 1193-1202 I
I
_________________________I
I
[c. 1195] II. JOHN DE LACY =
of Cromwellbottom I
living c. 1246 I
I
________________________I________________
I I
[c. 1225] III. JOHN DE LACY = (?) Alice dau. of John the
living 1255-c. 1290 I Alan de Pennington clerk
I
_______________I
I
[c. 1265] IV. JOHN DE LACY = Margaret, dau. of
m. c. 1290; d. 1307-10 I Sir Hugh de Eland
I widow in 1309-10
________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
[c. 1291] Va. HENRY DE LACY Vb. THOMAS DE LACY MARGARET
d. 1359-61 d. ante 1353 m. ante 1315-16
= (1) Beatrice = (?) Margaret, living 1335
= (2) Joan, dau. of Richard = Tho. de
living 1369 de Tong Thornhill
I I
________________________I _ _ _ _ _ I____
I I I I I
[c. 1320- VIa. JOHN VIb. RICHARD HUGH THOMAS Richard de
30] LACY, held LACY, heir to living of the Thornhill
Cromwellbottom his brother, 1374-5 Eland of Fixby
in 1353, d. 1397 d. 1416-24 = feud
I
_______I
I
[c. 1370] VII. JOHN LACY =
I
__________________I _ _ _ _ _ _
I I
[c. 1395] VIII. JOHN LACY = (?) Emmota ISABEL = John Peck
d. 1474, married I of Wakefield
twice I b. c. 1390
_________________I______________________________________
I I I I I I
I
[c. IX. WILLIAM RICHARD GILBERT JOAN AGNES DAU.
I
1420] LACY, dvp probable ancestor = = =
I
c. 1444 ancestor of Lacy Nicholas Percival John
I
= Joan (?) of Lacy of Savile son of Rish-
I
dau. of Sir of Melton Brearley of the John worth
I
William Mowbray Bank in Amyas
I
Scargill Southowram
I
I________
____I
____I____________________ I
I I I
[c. X. THOMAS LACY EDWARD LACY DAU.
1440] b.c. 1440, d. 1497-98 a priest, = (?) Brian
= Ellen, dau. of living 1487 Thornhill
Sir Robert Nevile of Fixby
of Liversedge
I
I
NOTES
[1] Cf. J. Ravilious, <Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with
Lacy of Cromwellbotham>, SGM, 27 Sept 2006 et seq. The text
provided therein is from W. Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents
and Feudal Aids, p. 39.
[2] C. T. Clay, The Family of Lacy of Cromwellbottom and
Leventhorpe, Miscellanea (Leeds: published for The
Thoresby Society, 1928), 28:468.
[3] Ibid., chart facing p. 474.
* John P. Ravilious
Hello John,
I am currently researching the Cromwellbottom branch of the de Lacy family and would be very interested in any further information you can provide regarding Gilbert de Lascy, as well as the subsequent 6 generations on the genealogical chart. I am particularly curious in regard to his alleged illegitimate descent from Robert de Lascy. Any further proof?
Also, I would be interested in accessing C.T. Clay's original article on the Lacy's of Cromwellbottom if possible.
Thanks for any help you might provide me!
Bill H.
Hi Bill,
you can read the article here: -
Charles T, Clay, "The Family of Cromwellbottom and Leventhorpe," Miscellanea, Thoresby Society, 28-4 (1927), 468-490.
https://archive.org/stream/publicationsv28p4thor#page/468/mode/1up
Regards,
john Watson
Thanks so much John, I greatly appreciate it!
Bill H.

Loading...