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More ancestry for the Palmer baronet's of Wingham
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wjhonson
2007-12-21 07:10:17 UTC
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On Leo's great web site here
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005616&tree=LEO

we see the pedigree for that Herbert Palmer, esq who married Dorothy
Pincheon and were parents to Thomas Palmer 4th Baronet of Wingham,
Kent and perhaps a few thousand descendents.

Leo has Herbert Palmer's mother rightly as Elizabeth Shirley (or
Shurley) but with nothing further on her. I can now correct that.

Elizabeth Shirley was born in 1599 to John Shirley, Knt (knighted by
1608) of Isfield (aka Iffield), Sussex by his wife (and possibly
cousin) Anne Shirley daughter of Thomas Shirley, Knt of Wiston.

I do note the problematic placement of Thomas Shirley Knt of Wiston.
I have no solution as yet for that.

John Shirley, Knt of Isfield was the son of Thomas Shirley of Isfield
by his wife Anne Pelham the daughter of Nicholas Pelham, Knt of
Laughton

After his first wife Anne Shirley died (between 1603 and 1607), John
Shirley married secondly at Cuckfield Church on 16 Mar 1607 as her
second husband to Dorothy Goring, the daughter of George Goring of
Ovingdeane and Danny Park; Sheriff of Sussex and Surrey by his wife
Mary Everard "eldest daughter" of William Everard of Albourne, Sussex.

Dorothy was the relict of Henry Bowyer Knt of Cuckfield who had d.s.p.
23 May 1606

For more connections, by his first wife, John Shirley was the father
of that Jane Shirley who married firstly Sir Walter Covert of
Slougham, Sussex (dead by 1642), and secondly as his second wife in
1642 to Denzil Holles, Baron Holles (born 31 Oct 1599) "second son" of
John Holles, 1st Earl Clare by his wife Anne Stanhope

John Shirley died 25 Apr 1631 and his last wife Dorothy (Goring) died
1640, there is an tomb and MI at Shurley Chancel, Isfield.

I am fairly confident that Herbert Palmer's Shirley/Pelham ancestry
can be traced back further, but I wanted to share with you all my
progress on this startling, amazing and new identification for Leo and
myself.

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2007-12-21 08:07:52 UTC
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Poking around the Pelhams I see that that Sir Nicholas Pelham, Knt who
d 15 Dec 1560 and who is buried at St Michael's, Lewes; by his wife
Anne Sackville has ten children alltogether

(see http://books.google.com/books?id=aiYJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA243&dq=pelham+of+catsfield
DNB, "Pelham, Sir Edmund (d 1606)")

So I feel fairly certain about placing this Anne (Pelham) Shirley as
one of those. This would make her born between 1535 and 1561,
marrying Thomas Shirley of Isfield (aka Iffield) and having (among
others) a son Sir John Shirley of Isfield sometime between 1549 and
1578.

Sir John Shirley's earliest daughter, known to me with a certain date,
is Jane Shirley born 1596 who married Sir Walter Covert and secondly
Denzil Holles, Baron Holles.

This is the only Nicholas Pelham of Laughton I know in the appropriate
time period.

Allowing that this placement is correct would give Anne (Pelham)
Shirley a Cecil number of 8 and a royal descent in ten steps three
different ways to Edward I, King of England.

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2007-12-21 22:25:48 UTC
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Thanks to Leo for a private email detailing that CP gives Jane
(Shirley) 1 Covert, 2 Freke, 3 Holles the second married to a John
Freke.

I had already had a Jane Shirley married to John Freke, but did not
notice that they were the same woman.

By this union with John Freke, Jane was the mother of that Elizabeth
Freke who married "bef 1659" to Richard Brownlow, 2nd Bart of Great
Humby (d 1668) and thereby parents of John Brownlow 3rd Bart.

John Brownlow's daughter Jane married Peregrine Bertie, 2nd Duke of
Ancaster and another daughter Elizabeth Brownlow married John Cecil,
6th Earl of Exeter

So quite a step up for this family, who continues forward at least
another four generations, perhaps more.

Jane Shirley then married
1) Sir Walter Covert of Slougham
2) John Freke
3) in 1642 Denzil Holles, Baron Holles (born 1599 - died 1680)

To this we can add that British History Online makes this Sir Walter
that same one who is known to have d 1632. By some curiosity which
they don't fully explain, her father John Shirley conveyed the Manor
of Ifield *to* Walter Covert in 1617. You would think this would be
for the heirs of their body and so presumably this would be about the
time Walter Covert and Jane Shirley married (as her first husband but
presumably his second wife).

However they then go *on* to state that Walter Covert's *niece* was
his heir which would seem odd if Jane Shirly were yet living, which
she did until at least 1642.

At any rate moving along (nothing to see here), we can now limit the
possible birth range for Elizabeth Freke, her daughter to 1633/41.
One would presume a marriage license for her to Richard Brownlow
exists and might mention her age.

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2007-12-21 23:28:00 UTC
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I can now update my last message.

I am not yet fully convinced that that Walter Covert Knt who "died in
1632" but also see "ob 22 Jun 1631" (http://books.google.com/books?
id=E9UHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA207&dq=walter+covert&as_brr=1)

was the dead husband of Jane Shirley, however there is a book
dedicated to "Jane COVERT of [the manor of] Pepper Harrow" in 1640

That strikes me a bit odd if she was already married to John Freke,
but leaving that aside for the moment, we do know at least that "Jane
Covert of Pepper Harrow" is the same woman who married lastly to
Denzil Holles.

We know this because, although Jane was holding Pepper Harrow for
life, after her death, Denzil Holles conveyed this manor to *his* son.

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2007-12-21 23:40:56 UTC
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We can now add further to the life of Jane Shirley of Pepper Harrow

The book dedicated to her by Thomas Fuller resulted in an entry for
her here
http://books.google.com/books?id=YhZKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA772&dq=walter+covert+jane&as_brr=1

in a work about Thomas Fuller.

There they go into great detail which, among other things, allows me
to know that the Register of Isfield (Ifield of Iffield) must be
extant.

In particular in this book, they state, that she was baptised at
Isfield 3 Jan 1596/7, they say "eldest daughter" but perhaps only
eldest surviving daughter, and co-heiress of her father (she did have
a brother who died at age 11).

They state that, at Isfield, she married 22 Aug 1616 to Walter Covert.

Jane made a Will dated 31 Jul 1658 some time before her death being
buried 25 Apr 1666 at Iwerne Courtnay, co Dorset and the will proved
13 Apr 1667.

So now we need to find that Register.

Will Johnson
s***@gmail.com
2017-05-29 20:28:03 UTC
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Hello my name is Joseph Gallagher, I've found your research to be quite amazing. The reason that I'm researching this family is because I believe that I own a table that belonged to Sir Thomas Palmer, 4th Baronet, of Wingham. This said Table has a crest with the words Palma Virtuti carved on to it an know that was his or there motto. If I could send you a photo via email to see what you think of it that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again

Joe gallagher
***@kw.com

Leo van de Pas
2007-12-21 22:58:41 UTC
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Thanks for the alert about the Brownlow connection. This makes Jane
Shirley/Shurley a most likely ancestor of Margaret Hilda Roberts, also known
as Margaret Thatcher.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <***@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: More ancestry for the Palmer baronet's of Wingham
Post by wjhonson
Thanks to Leo for a private email detailing that CP gives Jane
(Shirley) 1 Covert, 2 Freke, 3 Holles the second married to a John
Freke.
I had already had a Jane Shirley married to John Freke, but did not
notice that they were the same woman.
By this union with John Freke, Jane was the mother of that Elizabeth
Freke who married "bef 1659" to Richard Brownlow, 2nd Bart of Great
Humby (d 1668) and thereby parents of John Brownlow 3rd Bart.
John Brownlow's daughter Jane married Peregrine Bertie, 2nd Duke of
Ancaster and another daughter Elizabeth Brownlow married John Cecil,
6th Earl of Exeter
So quite a step up for this family, who continues forward at least
another four generations, perhaps more.
Jane Shirley then married
1) Sir Walter Covert of Slougham
2) John Freke
3) in 1642 Denzil Holles, Baron Holles (born 1599 - died 1680)
To this we can add that British History Online makes this Sir Walter
that same one who is known to have d 1632. By some curiosity which
they don't fully explain, her father John Shirley conveyed the Manor
of Ifield *to* Walter Covert in 1617. You would think this would be
for the heirs of their body and so presumably this would be about the
time Walter Covert and Jane Shirley married (as her first husband but
presumably his second wife).
However they then go *on* to state that Walter Covert's *niece* was
his heir which would seem odd if Jane Shirly were yet living, which
she did until at least 1642.
At any rate moving along (nothing to see here), we can now limit the
possible birth range for Elizabeth Freke, her daughter to 1633/41.
One would presume a marriage license for her to Richard Brownlow
exists and might mention her age.
Will Johnson
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