Discussion:
Ancestry notes for Hugh Owen Archdeacon of Salop
(too old to reply)
wjhonson
2018-06-17 16:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hugh Owen, author, Archdeacon of /Salop/ 1821-7 ; DW
bap 14 Jun 1761 Saint Mary Shrewbury, co Salop (Batch P006811 wj)
died 23 Dec 1827

His parents were Pyrce /Owen/ of Shrewsbury; physician
bap 28 Jun 1731 Bettws Cedewain, co Montgomery
died 31 Jul 1786 "aged 55"
M.I. St Julians

and

Bridget /Whitfield/
only daughter of John /Whitfield/ of Salisbury (Shrewsbury?) , esq and Bridget /Powys/ bap 10 Sep 1708 Saint Julian, Shrewsbury (Batch M037431 wj)


Hugh is of royal descent from King John
although I believe more research might show a closer descent

Can anyone identify further this John Whitfield, regarding his parents ?
wjhonson
2018-06-17 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by wjhonson
Hugh Owen, author, Archdeacon of /Salop/ 1821-7 ; DW
bap 14 Jun 1761 Saint Mary Shrewbury, co Salop (Batch P006811 wj)
died 23 Dec 1827
His parents were Pyrce /Owen/ of Shrewsbury; physician
bap 28 Jun 1731 Bettws Cedewain, co Montgomery
died 31 Jul 1786 "aged 55"
M.I. St Julians
and
Bridget /Whitfield/
only daughter of John /Whitfield/ of Salisbury (Shrewsbury?) , esq and Bridget /Powys/ bap 10 Sep 1708 Saint Julian, Shrewsbury (Batch M037431 wj)
Hugh is of royal descent from King John
although I believe more research might show a closer descent
Can anyone identify further this John Whitfield, regarding his parents ?
I think I may have found a shorter royal ascent for Hugh Owen

Pryce Owen was the son of
Lingaine /Owen/ (1706-35) of Bettws, co Mont; esq
by an wife unknown to me

Lingaine was the son of

William /Owen/ of Bettws, co Mont; esq
second son
by his wife
Elizabeth /Price/
heiress of her father

William was the son of
Thomas /Owen/ of Llunllo; esq
by his wife
Anne /Powell/

The ascent to King John goes through this Thomas Owen
However it seems probably that Anne has an Edward I ascent as follows

Anne was the daughter of
Thomas /Powell/ (1635-1705) of Llechwedd Dyrys, co Cardigan; Knt; Judge of the Court of King's Bench
by his wife
Elizabeth /Lloyd/

Thomas was the son of
John /Powell/ of Llechwedd Dyrys
by his wife
Jane /Pryse/

Jane was the daughter of
Thomas /Pryse/ of Glanfred; esq
Second son
by his wife
Bridget /Griffith/

Thomas was the son of
John /Pryse/ of Gogarthan; MP co Cardigan 1553-5; esq
by his wife
Elizabeth /Perrot/

Elizabeth was the daughter of
Thomas /Perrot/ of Istingston and Haraldstone, co Pembroke; esq
born 1504/5, died 1531
by his wife
Mary /Berkeley/

Mary was the daughter of
James /Berkeley/ of Thornbury
died 1514
by his wife
Suzanne /Veale/

James was the son of
Maurice, 3rd Lord /Berkeley/
who ascends in six more steps to King Edward I
Brad Verity
2018-06-18 06:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by wjhonson
I think I may have found a shorter royal ascent for Hugh Owen
William was the son of
Thomas /Owen/ of Llunllo; esq
by his wife
Anne /Powell/
The ascent to King John goes through this Thomas Owen
However it seems probably that Anne has an Edward I ascent as follows
Dear Will,

Anne (Powell) Owen has the Edward I descent you presented. Her husband has an Edward IV descent.

Edward IV = (probably) Margaret Fitzlewis, Lady Lucy, and had
1) Margaret Plantagenet, illegit m. Sir Thomas Lumley (c.1462-1503, descended from Edward III), and had
2) Richard, 4th Lord Lumley (by 1478-1510) m. Anne Conyers (1469-1530, descended from Edward III), and had
3) John, 5th Lord Lumley (by 1492-1545) m. Joan Scrope (b. c.1495, descended from Edward III), and had
4) George Lumley of Thwing (c.1513-1537) m. Jane Knightley, and had
5) Barbara Lumley (c.1535-c.1609) m. 2) William Williams of Cochwillan Old Hall (c.1535-1612, descended from Edward III), and had
6) Henry Williams of Cochwillan Old Hall m. Jane Salusbury, and had
7) Lumley Williams of Ystym Colwyn (c.1600-1638) m. Dorothy Thomas, and had
8) Barbara Williams (d. 1704) m. Rowland Owen of Llynlloedd (c.1630-1710, descended from Edward I), and had
9) Thomas Owen of Llynlloedd (d. 1714) m. Anne Powell (d. 1686, descended from Edward I)
Post by wjhonson
Anne was the daughter of
Thomas /Powell/ (1635-1705) of Llechwedd Dyrys, co Cardigan; Knt; Judge of the Court of King's Bench
by his wife
Elizabeth /Lloyd/
Thomas was the son of
John /Powell/ of Llechwedd Dyrys
by his wife
Jane /Pryse/
Jane was the daughter of
Thomas /Pryse/ of Glanfred; esq
Second son
by his wife
Bridget /Griffith/
Thomas was the son of
John /Pryse/ of Gogarthan; MP co Cardigan 1553-5; esq
by his wife
Elizabeth /Perrot/
Elizabeth was the daughter of
Thomas /Perrot/ of Istingston and Haraldstone, co Pembroke; esq
born 1504/5, died 1531
by his wife
Mary /Berkeley/
Mary was the daughter of
James /Berkeley/ of Thornbury
died 1514
by his wife
Suzanne /Veale/
James was the son of
Maurice, 3rd Lord /Berkeley/
who ascends in six more steps to King Edward I
Hope this helps!

Cheers, ----Brad
wjhonson
2018-06-18 17:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brad Verity
Post by wjhonson
I think I may have found a shorter royal ascent for Hugh Owen
William was the son of
Thomas /Owen/ of Llunllo; esq
by his wife
Anne /Powell/
The ascent to King John goes through this Thomas Owen
However it seems probably that Anne has an Edward I ascent as follows
Dear Will,
Anne (Powell) Owen has the Edward I descent you presented. Her husband has an Edward IV descent.
Edward IV = (probably) Margaret Fitzlewis, Lady Lucy, and had
1) Margaret Plantagenet, illegit m. Sir Thomas Lumley (c.1462-1503, descended from Edward III), and had
2) Richard, 4th Lord Lumley (by 1478-1510) m. Anne Conyers (1469-1530, descended from Edward III), and had
3) John, 5th Lord Lumley (by 1492-1545) m. Joan Scrope (b. c.1495, descended from Edward III), and had
4) George Lumley of Thwing (c.1513-1537) m. Jane Knightley, and had
5) Barbara Lumley (c.1535-c.1609) m. 2) William Williams of Cochwillan Old Hall (c.1535-1612, descended from Edward III), and had
6) Henry Williams of Cochwillan Old Hall m. Jane Salusbury, and had
7) Lumley Williams of Ystym Colwyn (c.1600-1638) m. Dorothy Thomas, and had
8) Barbara Williams (d. 1704) m. Rowland Owen of Llynlloedd (c.1630-1710, descended from Edward I), and had
9) Thomas Owen of Llynlloedd (d. 1714) m. Anne Powell (d. 1686, descended from Edward I)
Post by wjhonson
Anne was the daughter of
Thomas /Powell/ (1635-1705) of Llechwedd Dyrys, co Cardigan; Knt; Judge of the Court of King's Bench
by his wife
Elizabeth /Lloyd/
Thomas was the son of
John /Powell/ of Llechwedd Dyrys
by his wife
Jane /Pryse/
Jane was the daughter of
Thomas /Pryse/ of Glanfred; esq
Second son
by his wife
Bridget /Griffith/
Thomas was the son of
John /Pryse/ of Gogarthan; MP co Cardigan 1553-5; esq
by his wife
Elizabeth /Perrot/
Elizabeth was the daughter of
Thomas /Perrot/ of Istingston and Haraldstone, co Pembroke; esq
born 1504/5, died 1531
by his wife
Mary /Berkeley/
Mary was the daughter of
James /Berkeley/ of Thornbury
died 1514
by his wife
Suzanne /Veale/
James was the son of
Maurice, 3rd Lord /Berkeley/
who ascends in six more steps to King Edward I
Hope this helps!
Cheers, ----Brad
Thanks Brad, I couldn't find the Lumley Williams ascent.
John Higgins
2018-07-04 04:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brad Verity
Post by wjhonson
I think I may have found a shorter royal ascent for Hugh Owen
William was the son of
Thomas /Owen/ of Llunllo; esq
by his wife
Anne /Powell/
The ascent to King John goes through this Thomas Owen
However it seems probably that Anne has an Edward I ascent as follows
Dear Will,
Anne (Powell) Owen has the Edward I descent you presented. Her husband has an Edward IV descent.
Edward IV = (probably) Margaret Fitzlewis, Lady Lucy, and had
1) Margaret Plantagenet, illegit m. Sir Thomas Lumley (c.1462-1503, descended from Edward III), and had
2) Richard, 4th Lord Lumley (by 1478-1510) m. Anne Conyers (1469-1530, descended from Edward III), and had
3) John, 5th Lord Lumley (by 1492-1545) m. Joan Scrope (b. c.1495, descended from Edward III), and had
4) George Lumley of Thwing (c.1513-1537) m. Jane Knightley, and had
5) Barbara Lumley (c.1535-c.1609) m. 2) William Williams of Cochwillan Old Hall (c.1535-1612, descended from Edward III), and had
6) Henry Williams of Cochwillan Old Hall m. Jane Salusbury, and had
7) Lumley Williams of Ystym Colwyn (c.1600-1638) m. Dorothy Thomas, and had
8) Barbara Williams (d. 1704) m. Rowland Owen of Llynlloedd (c.1630-1710, descended from Edward I), and had
9) Thomas Owen of Llynlloedd (d. 1714) m. Anne Powell (d. 1686, descended from Edward I)
Hi, Brad:

In line 7 above, Dorothy Thomas is mentioned without any indication of royal descents behind her. I believe there are at least one , and possibly two, descents from Henry IV behind her.

1. Henry IV, King of England; m. (1) Mary Bohun
2. Humphrey Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester; (unm.)
3. [illeg.] Antigone Planatagenet; m. Henry Grey, 2nd Earl of Tankerville
4. Elizabeth Grey; m. Sir Roger Kynaston
5. Jane Kynaston; m. Roger Thornes
6. Elizabeth Thornes; m. Ieuan Llwyd Fychan ap Ieuan Llwyd ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Gruffudd
7. Jeffrey Tanat; m. Mawd ferch Gruffudd ap Dafydd Llwyd ab Owain
8. Alice Tanat; m. Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd ab Ithel
9. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]; m. Gaenor Vaughan
10. Dorothy Thomas; m. Lumley Williams

There may be an additional Henry IV descent if the parentage of Gaenor vaughan in line 9 can be confirmed:

4. Humphrey Grey [br. of Elizabeth]; m. NN
5. John Grey; m. Elen ferch Owain ab Ieuan Deg ap Deio
6. Elizabeth Grey; m. John ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Gruffudd
7. Owain [ap John ap Hywel Fychan] Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margred ferch Owain ap Gruffudd ap Maredudd Fychan
8. John ab Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Sheriff of Montgomeryshire 1583; m. Dorothy ferch Hywel Fychan ap Dafydd Llwyd
9. Owen ap John ab Owen Vaughan; m. Catrin ferch Morus ap Robert ap Morus
10. John Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margaret Herbert [descended from Edward I]
11. Gaenor Vaughan; m. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]

Comments are welcome...
Brad Verity
2018-07-04 16:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hello John - Happy 4th of July.
Post by John Higgins
In line 7 above, Dorothy Thomas is mentioned without any indication of royal descents behind her. I believe there are at least one , and possibly two, descents from Henry IV behind her.
1. Henry IV, King of England; m. (1) Mary Bohun
2. Humphrey Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester; (unm.)
3. [illeg.] Antigone Planatagenet; m. Henry Grey, 2nd Earl of Tankerville
4. Elizabeth Grey; m. Sir Roger Kynaston
5. Jane Kynaston; m. Roger Thornes
6. Elizabeth Thornes; m. Ieuan Llwyd Fychan ap Ieuan Llwyd ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Gruffudd
I have the line till this generation. I have Elizabeth Thornes' husband as Ieuan Lloyd of Abertanat, with no dates for either, and Bartrum [chart Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 10 (F2)] as my source. I'll need to track down the chart. I only have one child for the couple - daughter Katrin Lloyd (d. by 1592), wife of David Lloyd of Pentrecoed - in my database. No doubt there were additional children, including the Jeffrey Tanat (not Lloyd?) you've traced.
Post by John Higgins
7. Jeffrey Tanat; m. Mawd ferch Gruffudd ap Dafydd Llwyd ab Owain
8. Alice Tanat; m. Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd ab Ithel
9. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]; m. Gaenor Vaughan
10. Dorothy Thomas; m. Lumley Williams
I have Dorothy Thomas's father as Rhys ap Thomas of Ystum Colwyn in my database, with no dates or spouse. Source is the Williams-Bulkeley article in BP (2003 edn), p. 4183. Ystum Colwyn was in the county of Montgomeryshire (today Powys):
http://walesher1974.org/herumd.php?linktable=her_source1_link&group=CPAT&level=3&docid=301338500

I haven't researched the line any further.
Post by John Higgins
4. Humphrey Grey [br. of Elizabeth]; m. NN
5. John Grey; m. Elen ferch Owain ab Ieuan Deg ap Deio
6. Elizabeth Grey; m. John ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Gruffudd
7. Owain [ap John ap Hywel Fychan] Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margred ferch Owain ap Gruffudd ap Maredudd Fychan
8. John ab Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Sheriff of Montgomeryshire 1583; m. Dorothy ferch Hywel Fychan ap Dafydd Llwyd
9. Owen ap John ab Owen Vaughan; m. Catrin ferch Morus ap Robert ap Morus
I have the line till this generation in my database, with Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (d. 1618) married to Katherine Robert, heiress of Llangedwyn, dau of Morus ap Robert of Llangedwyn and Mary ferch Elise.
Post by John Higgins
10. John Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margaret Herbert [descended from Edward I]
I have Owen's son as Sir Robert Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (c.1594-1624) m. (her 1st husband) Hon. Katherine Herbert (1600-1666), dau of William, 1st Baron Powis & Lady Eleanor Percy.

Was John (#10 above) a younger son?
Post by John Higgins
11. Gaenor Vaughan; m. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]
Comments are welcome...
Both lines seem to work chronologically. Bartrum and/or the Welsh Medieval Database (I've lost my link to that) would no doubt prove them.

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
John Higgins
2018-07-04 21:40:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi, Brad:

Additional details on these two lines are interspersed below. The relevant parts of the lines are based on the sources - Bartrum and otherwise - given in the Welsh Medieval Genealogy database at the FHL - to the extent that those sources are accessible to me. (The Welsh database is now encompassed within the larger "Community Trees" database, searchable at familysearch.org.)

Here is the ancestry chart for Gaenor Vaughan (including her mother Alice Tanat): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3ZDZ-4MS
Post by Brad Verity
Hello John - Happy 4th of July.
Post by John Higgins
In line 7 above, Dorothy Thomas is mentioned without any indication of royal descents behind her. I believe there are at least one , and possibly two, descents from Henry IV behind her.
1. Henry IV, King of England; m. (1) Mary Bohun
2. Humphrey Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester; (unm.)
3. [illeg.] Antigone Planatagenet; m. Henry Grey, 2nd Earl of Tankerville
4. Elizabeth Grey; m. Sir Roger Kynaston
5. Jane Kynaston; m. Roger Thornes
6. Elizabeth Thornes; m. Ieuan Llwyd Fychan ap Ieuan Llwyd ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Gruffudd
I have the line till this generation. I have Elizabeth Thornes' husband as Ieuan Lloyd of Abertanat, with no dates for either, and Bartrum [chart Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 10 (F2)] as my source. I'll need to track down the chart. I only have one child for the couple - daughter Katrin Lloyd (d. by 1592), wife of David Lloyd of Pentrecoed - in my database. No doubt there were additional children, including the Jeffrey Tanat (not Lloyd?) you've traced.
Here is the link for Bartrum table Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 10(F2) (assuming the site is available, which it often is NOT!):
Loading Image...

The table shows Elizabeth Thornes' husband as Ieuan Llwyd Fychan, son of Ieuan Llwyd of Abertanat. It also shows several children for the couple beyond the daughter Katrin that you mention - including a son Jeffrey Tanat [sic]. Finally it shows Jeffrey's children including the daughter Alice mentioned here.
Post by Brad Verity
Post by John Higgins
7. Jeffrey Tanat; m. Mawd ferch Gruffudd ap Dafydd Llwyd ab Owain
8. Alice Tanat; m. Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd ab Ithel
9. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]; m. Gaenor Vaughan
10. Dorothy Thomas; m. Lumley Williams
http://walesher1974.org/herumd.php?linktable=her_source1_link&group=CPAT&level=3&docid=301338500
I haven't researched the line any further.
The male-line ancestry of Dorothy's father Rhys ap Thomas of Ystum Colwyn (starting from his father Thomas) is shown in Bartrum table Idnerth Benfras 3(C) here:
Loading Image...
Post by Brad Verity
Post by John Higgins
4. Humphrey Grey [br. of Elizabeth]; m. NN
5. John Grey; m. Elen ferch Owain ab Ieuan Deg ap Deio
6. Elizabeth Grey; m. John ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Gruffudd
7. Owain [ap John ap Hywel Fychan] Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margred ferch Owain ap Gruffudd ap Maredudd Fychan
8. John ab Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Sheriff of Montgomeryshire 1583; m. Dorothy ferch Hywel Fychan ap Dafydd Llwyd
9. Owen ap John ab Owen Vaughan; m. Catrin ferch Morus ap Robert ap Morus
I have the line till this generation in my database, with Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (d. 1618) married to Katherine Robert, heiress of Llangedwyn, dau of Morus ap Robert of Llangedwyn and Mary ferch Elise.
Post by John Higgins
10. John Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margaret Herbert [descended from Edward I]
I have Owen's son as Sir Robert Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (c.1594-1624) m. (her 1st husband) Hon. Katherine Herbert (1600-1666), dau of William, 1st Baron Powis & Lady Eleanor Percy.
Was John (#10 above) a younger son?
Post by John Higgins
11. Gaenor Vaughan; m. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]
Comments are welcome...
Both lines seem to work chronologically. Bartrum and/or the Welsh Medieval Database (I've lost my link to that) would no doubt prove them.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
The parentage of Gaenor Vaughan is a problem and is noted as such in the Welsh database. The only reference given there for her is a Williams pedigree in Montgomeryshire Collections 9:347, where Lumley Williams' wife is given as "Dorothy, d. and heiress of Rees Thomas, of Ystymcolwyn, by his wife Gaynor, who was d. of John Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Esq.".

The Bartrum table which leads to Vaughan of Llwydiarth is Aleth 7(A), but it only goes as far generation 7 above. The pedigree goes further in Dwnn's Visitations of Wales, 1:294 and Lloyd's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire, 224-225. Both of these show that Sir Robert Vaughan who married Catherine Herbert had an elder brother John Vaughan who married Margaret Herbert, but neither source gives this latter couple any children. It's possible that Gaenor was instead a daughter of John's grandfather, another John ap Owen of Llwydiarth, but that also is not supported by any source. So I guess for the moment Gaenor's paternity must remain unknown....
John Higgins
2018-07-04 23:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Higgins
Additional details on these two lines are interspersed below. The relevant parts of the lines are based on the sources - Bartrum and otherwise - given in the Welsh Medieval Genealogy database at the FHL - to the extent that those sources are accessible to me. (The Welsh database is now encompassed within the larger "Community Trees" database, searchable at familysearch.org.)
Here is the ancestry chart for Gaenor Vaughan (including her mother Alice Tanat): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3ZDZ-4MS
Post by Brad Verity
Hello John - Happy 4th of July.
Post by John Higgins
In line 7 above, Dorothy Thomas is mentioned without any indication of royal descents behind her. I believe there are at least one , and possibly two, descents from Henry IV behind her.
1. Henry IV, King of England; m. (1) Mary Bohun
2. Humphrey Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester; (unm.)
3. [illeg.] Antigone Planatagenet; m. Henry Grey, 2nd Earl of Tankerville
4. Elizabeth Grey; m. Sir Roger Kynaston
5. Jane Kynaston; m. Roger Thornes
6. Elizabeth Thornes; m. Ieuan Llwyd Fychan ap Ieuan Llwyd ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Gruffudd
I have the line till this generation. I have Elizabeth Thornes' husband as Ieuan Lloyd of Abertanat, with no dates for either, and Bartrum [chart Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 10 (F2)] as my source. I'll need to track down the chart. I only have one child for the couple - daughter Katrin Lloyd (d. by 1592), wife of David Lloyd of Pentrecoed - in my database. No doubt there were additional children, including the Jeffrey Tanat (not Lloyd?) you've traced.
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5569/BLEDDYN%20AP%20CYNFYN%2010%28F2%29_83.png?sequence=9&isAllowed=y
The table shows Elizabeth Thornes' husband as Ieuan Llwyd Fychan, son of Ieuan Llwyd of Abertanat. It also shows several children for the couple beyond the daughter Katrin that you mention - including a son Jeffrey Tanat [sic]. Finally it shows Jeffrey's children including the daughter Alice mentioned here.
Post by Brad Verity
Post by John Higgins
7. Jeffrey Tanat; m. Mawd ferch Gruffudd ap Dafydd Llwyd ab Owain
8. Alice Tanat; m. Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd ab Ithel
9. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]; m. Gaenor Vaughan
10. Dorothy Thomas; m. Lumley Williams
http://walesher1974.org/herumd.php?linktable=her_source1_link&group=CPAT&level=3&docid=301338500
I haven't researched the line any further.
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5385/IDNERTH%20BENFRAS%203%28C%29_1046.png?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
Post by Brad Verity
Post by John Higgins
4. Humphrey Grey [br. of Elizabeth]; m. NN
5. John Grey; m. Elen ferch Owain ab Ieuan Deg ap Deio
6. Elizabeth Grey; m. John ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Gruffudd
7. Owain [ap John ap Hywel Fychan] Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margred ferch Owain ap Gruffudd ap Maredudd Fychan
8. John ab Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Sheriff of Montgomeryshire 1583; m. Dorothy ferch Hywel Fychan ap Dafydd Llwyd
9. Owen ap John ab Owen Vaughan; m. Catrin ferch Morus ap Robert ap Morus
I have the line till this generation in my database, with Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (d. 1618) married to Katherine Robert, heiress of Llangedwyn, dau of Morus ap Robert of Llangedwyn and Mary ferch Elise.
Post by John Higgins
10. John Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margaret Herbert [descended from Edward I]
I have Owen's son as Sir Robert Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (c.1594-1624) m. (her 1st husband) Hon. Katherine Herbert (1600-1666), dau of William, 1st Baron Powis & Lady Eleanor Percy.
Was John (#10 above) a younger son?
Post by John Higgins
11. Gaenor Vaughan; m. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]
Comments are welcome...
Both lines seem to work chronologically. Bartrum and/or the Welsh Medieval Database (I've lost my link to that) would no doubt prove them.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
The parentage of Gaenor Vaughan is a problem and is noted as such in the Welsh database. The only reference given there for her is a Williams pedigree in Montgomeryshire Collections 9:347, where Lumley Williams' wife is given as "Dorothy, d. and heiress of Rees Thomas, of Ystymcolwyn, by his wife Gaynor, who was d. of John Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Esq.".
The Bartrum table which leads to Vaughan of Llwydiarth is Aleth 7(A), but it only goes as far generation 7 above. The pedigree goes further in Dwnn's Visitations of Wales, 1:294 and Lloyd's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire, 224-225. Both of these show that Sir Robert Vaughan who married Catherine Herbert had an elder brother John Vaughan who married Margaret Herbert, but neither source gives this latter couple any children. It's possible that Gaenor was instead a daughter of John's grandfather, another John ap Owen of Llwydiarth, but that also is not supported by any source. So I guess for the moment Gaenor's paternity must remain unknown....
I forgot to mention that there is another point which argues against Gaenor Vaughan being a daughter of John Vaughan and Margaret Herbert, as she is currently placed in the Welsh Medieval Genealogy database. As mentioned before, the pedigrees of Vaughan of Llwydiarth indicate that John Vaughan who married Margaret Herbert was the elder brother of Sir Robert Vaughan who married Catherine Herbert. But the Llwydiarth estates passed to Eleanor the daughter and eventual heir of Sir Robert, who married John Purcell of Nantcribba. Through that family the estates eventually passed to the family of the Wynn baronets of Wynnstay.

Barring any unexpected quirks in property descent, that would suggest that John Vaughan and Margaret Herbert did in fact have no children. If so, Gaenor might possibly be the daughter of John's grandfather John ab Owain - thus preserving the Henry IV descent. But I presently know of no sources that support this placement
Brad Verity
2018-07-05 21:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Higgins
Post by John Higgins
Here is the ancestry chart for Gaenor Vaughan (including her mother Alice Tanat): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3ZDZ-4MS
Very useful - thank you.

And I downloaded without any difficulty the two Bartrum charts you linked - thank you for those.
Post by John Higgins
I forgot to mention that there is another point which argues against Gaenor Vaughan being a daughter of John Vaughan and Margaret Herbert, as she is currently placed in the Welsh Medieval Genealogy database. As mentioned before, the pedigrees of Vaughan of Llwydiarth indicate that John Vaughan who married Margaret Herbert was the elder brother of Sir Robert Vaughan who married Catherine Herbert. But the Llwydiarth estates passed to Eleanor the daughter and eventual heir of Sir Robert, who married John Purcell of Nantcribba. Through that family the estates eventually passed to the family of the Wynn baronets of Wynnstay.
Barring any unexpected quirks in property descent, that would suggest that John Vaughan and Margaret Herbert did in fact have no children. If so, Gaenor might possibly be the daughter of John's grandfather John ab Owain - thus preserving the Henry IV descent. But I presently know of no sources that support this placement
I agree with you that it's best to hold off on ascribing paternity to Gaenor (Vaughan) Thomas. Llwydiarth is a prominent estate, perhaps there's been an article on it that can be accessed in the Welsh Journals online, which may provide some further clues.

Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-07-05 23:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Higgins
Post by John Higgins
Additional details on these two lines are interspersed below. The relevant parts of the lines are based on the sources - Bartrum and otherwise - given in the Welsh Medieval Genealogy database at the FHL - to the extent that those sources are accessible to me. (The Welsh database is now encompassed within the larger "Community Trees" database, searchable at familysearch.org.)
Here is the ancestry chart for Gaenor Vaughan (including her mother Alice Tanat): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3ZDZ-4MS
Post by Brad Verity
Hello John - Happy 4th of July.
Post by John Higgins
In line 7 above, Dorothy Thomas is mentioned without any indication of royal descents behind her. I believe there are at least one , and possibly two, descents from Henry IV behind her.
1. Henry IV, King of England; m. (1) Mary Bohun
2. Humphrey Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester; (unm.)
3. [illeg.] Antigone Planatagenet; m. Henry Grey, 2nd Earl of Tankerville
4. Elizabeth Grey; m. Sir Roger Kynaston
5. Jane Kynaston; m. Roger Thornes
6. Elizabeth Thornes; m. Ieuan Llwyd Fychan ap Ieuan Llwyd ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Gruffudd
I have the line till this generation. I have Elizabeth Thornes' husband as Ieuan Lloyd of Abertanat, with no dates for either, and Bartrum [chart Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 10 (F2)] as my source. I'll need to track down the chart. I only have one child for the couple - daughter Katrin Lloyd (d. by 1592), wife of David Lloyd of Pentrecoed - in my database. No doubt there were additional children, including the Jeffrey Tanat (not Lloyd?) you've traced.
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5569/BLEDDYN%20AP%20CYNFYN%2010%28F2%29_83.png?sequence=9&isAllowed=y
The table shows Elizabeth Thornes' husband as Ieuan Llwyd Fychan, son of Ieuan Llwyd of Abertanat. It also shows several children for the couple beyond the daughter Katrin that you mention - including a son Jeffrey Tanat [sic]. Finally it shows Jeffrey's children including the daughter Alice mentioned here.
Post by Brad Verity
Post by John Higgins
7. Jeffrey Tanat; m. Mawd ferch Gruffudd ap Dafydd Llwyd ab Owain
8. Alice Tanat; m. Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd ab Ithel
9. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]; m. Gaenor Vaughan
10. Dorothy Thomas; m. Lumley Williams
http://walesher1974.org/herumd.php?linktable=her_source1_link&group=CPAT&level=3&docid=301338500
I haven't researched the line any further.
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5385/IDNERTH%20BENFRAS%203%28C%29_1046.png?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
Post by Brad Verity
Post by John Higgins
4. Humphrey Grey [br. of Elizabeth]; m. NN
5. John Grey; m. Elen ferch Owain ab Ieuan Deg ap Deio
6. Elizabeth Grey; m. John ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Gruffudd
7. Owain [ap John ap Hywel Fychan] Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margred ferch Owain ap Gruffudd ap Maredudd Fychan
8. John ab Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Sheriff of Montgomeryshire 1583; m. Dorothy ferch Hywel Fychan ap Dafydd Llwyd
9. Owen ap John ab Owen Vaughan; m. Catrin ferch Morus ap Robert ap Morus
I have the line till this generation in my database, with Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (d. 1618) married to Katherine Robert, heiress of Llangedwyn, dau of Morus ap Robert of Llangedwyn and Mary ferch Elise.
Post by John Higgins
10. John Vaughan of Llwydiarth; m. Margaret Herbert [descended from Edward I]
I have Owen's son as Sir Robert Vaughan of Llwydiarth Hall (c.1594-1624) m. (her 1st husband) Hon. Katherine Herbert (1600-1666), dau of William, 1st Baron Powis & Lady Eleanor Percy.
Was John (#10 above) a younger son?
Post by John Higgins
11. Gaenor Vaughan; m. Rhys Thomas [Rhys ap Thomas ap Rhys ap Dafydd]
Comments are welcome...
Both lines seem to work chronologically. Bartrum and/or the Welsh Medieval Database (I've lost my link to that) would no doubt prove them.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
The parentage of Gaenor Vaughan is a problem and is noted as such in the Welsh database. The only reference given there for her is a Williams pedigree in Montgomeryshire Collections 9:347, where Lumley Williams' wife is given as "Dorothy, d. and heiress of Rees Thomas, of Ystymcolwyn, by his wife Gaynor, who was d. of John Owen Vaughan of Llwydiarth, Esq.".
The Bartrum table which leads to Vaughan of Llwydiarth is Aleth 7(A), but it only goes as far generation 7 above. The pedigree goes further in Dwnn's Visitations of Wales, 1:294 and Lloyd's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire, 224-225. Both of these show that Sir Robert Vaughan who married Catherine Herbert had an elder brother John Vaughan who married Margaret Herbert, but neither source gives this latter couple any children. It's possible that Gaenor was instead a daughter of John's grandfather, another John ap Owen of Llwydiarth, but that also is not supported by any source. So I guess for the moment Gaenor's paternity must remain unknown....
I forgot to mention that there is another point which argues against Gaenor Vaughan being a daughter of John Vaughan and Margaret Herbert, as she is currently placed in the Welsh Medieval Genealogy database. As mentioned before, the pedigrees of Vaughan of Llwydiarth indicate that John Vaughan who married Margaret Herbert was the elder brother of Sir Robert Vaughan who married Catherine Herbert. But the Llwydiarth estates passed to Eleanor the daughter and eventual heir of Sir Robert, who married John Purcell of Nantcribba. Through that family the estates eventually passed to the family of the Wynn baronets of Wynnstay.
Barring any unexpected quirks in property descent, that would suggest that John Vaughan and Margaret Herbert did in fact have no children. If so, Gaenor might possibly be the daughter of John's grandfather John ab Owain - thus preserving the Henry IV descent. But I presently know of no sources that support this placement
Are there any good estimated dates on Gaenor Vaughan that could clarify this matter?
John Higgins
2018-06-25 04:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by wjhonson
Post by wjhonson
Hugh Owen, author, Archdeacon of /Salop/ 1821-7 ; DW
bap 14 Jun 1761 Saint Mary Shrewbury, co Salop (Batch P006811 wj)
died 23 Dec 1827
His parents were Pyrce /Owen/ of Shrewsbury; physician
bap 28 Jun 1731 Bettws Cedewain, co Montgomery
died 31 Jul 1786 "aged 55"
M.I. St Julians
and
Bridget /Whitfield/
only daughter of John /Whitfield/ of Salisbury (Shrewsbury?) , esq and Bridget /Powys/ bap 10 Sep 1708 Saint Julian, Shrewsbury (Batch M037431 wj)
Hugh is of royal descent from King John
although I believe more research might show a closer descent
Can anyone identify further this John Whitfield, regarding his parents ?
I think I may have found a shorter royal ascent for Hugh Owen
Pryce Owen was the son of
Lingaine /Owen/ (1706-35) of Bettws, co Mont; esq
by an wife unknown to me
Lingaine was the son of
William /Owen/ of Bettws, co Mont; esq
second son
by his wife
Elizabeth /Price/
heiress of her father
In regard to Lingaine Owen of Bettws and his "wife unknown to me":

The family of Owen of Bettws last appeared in Burke's LG in the 1937 edition. (The family also appeared earlier in Burke's Commoners, but that account has errors.) Some of the late 19thC editions of BLG are available via the Internet Archive and possibly Google Books as well. From the 1894 edition, the wife of Lingaine Owen of Bettws was Mary, daughter of Jenkin Lloyd of Chlochfaen, Montgomeryshire, by his wife Rachel, daughter of John Fowler of Abbey Cym Hir, Radnorshire. There are royal descents behind both of the parents of Mary Lloyd.

Mary Lloyd's mother Rachel Fowler has a handful of descents from Edward III. As an Edward III descendant she appears with her father John in table XXII of the Essex volume of Ruvigny's Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal. But her father John (whose wife is unknown) is misplaced in this table (an error probably derived from Burke's Commoners). John was actually the son, not the brother as in Ruvigny, of Richard Fowler of Harnage who married Margaret Newport. This latter couple is in the Genealogics database (without their son John), and the Edward III descents should be easily traceable there. (The descents go via the families of Littleton and Devereux, as a start.)

Mary Lloyd's father Jenkin Lloyd of Chlochfaen has a handful of Edward I descents - through a different branch of this Lloyd family. But that's a matter for a separate post...

In addition to the Edward I descents for Jenkin Lloyd and the Edward III descents for Rachel Fowler, there are also quite a number of further descents from King John - far too many to list in detail.
John Higgins
2018-06-25 20:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
Post by wjhonson
Hugh Owen, author, Archdeacon of /Salop/ 1821-7 ; DW
bap 14 Jun 1761 Saint Mary Shrewbury, co Salop (Batch P006811 wj)
died 23 Dec 1827
His parents were Pyrce /Owen/ of Shrewsbury; physician
bap 28 Jun 1731 Bettws Cedewain, co Montgomery
died 31 Jul 1786 "aged 55"
M.I. St Julians
and
Bridget /Whitfield/
only daughter of John /Whitfield/ of Salisbury (Shrewsbury?) , esq and Bridget /Powys/ bap 10 Sep 1708 Saint Julian, Shrewsbury (Batch M037431 wj)
Hugh is of royal descent from King John
although I believe more research might show a closer descent
Can anyone identify further this John Whitfield, regarding his parents ?
I think I may have found a shorter royal ascent for Hugh Owen
Pryce Owen was the son of
Lingaine /Owen/ (1706-35) of Bettws, co Mont; esq
by an wife unknown to me
Lingaine was the son of
William /Owen/ of Bettws, co Mont; esq
second son
by his wife
Elizabeth /Price/
heiress of her father
The family of Owen of Bettws last appeared in Burke's LG in the 1937 edition. (The family also appeared earlier in Burke's Commoners, but that account has errors.) Some of the late 19thC editions of BLG are available via the Internet Archive and possibly Google Books as well. From the 1894 edition, the wife of Lingaine Owen of Bettws was Mary, daughter of Jenkin Lloyd of Chlochfaen, Montgomeryshire, by his wife Rachel, daughter of John Fowler of Abbey Cym Hir, Radnorshire. There are royal descents behind both of the parents of Mary Lloyd.
Mary Lloyd's mother Rachel Fowler has a handful of descents from Edward III. As an Edward III descendant she appears with her father John in table XXII of the Essex volume of Ruvigny's Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal. But her father John (whose wife is unknown) is misplaced in this table (an error probably derived from Burke's Commoners). John was actually the son, not the brother as in Ruvigny, of Richard Fowler of Harnage who married Margaret Newport. This latter couple is in the Genealogics database (without their son John), and the Edward III descents should be easily traceable there. (The descents go via the families of Littleton and Devereux, as a start.)
Mary Lloyd's father Jenkin Lloyd of Clochfaen has a handful of Edward I descents - through a different branch of this Lloyd family. But that's a matter for a separate post...
In addition to the Edward I descents for Jenkin Lloyd and the Edward III descents for Rachel Fowler, there are also quite a number of further descents from King John - far too many to list in detail.
Follow-up note on the Edward I descents of Jenkin Lloyd of Clochfaen:

Jenkin Lloyd of Clochfaen (m. Rachel Fowler)
son of
Rhys Lloyd of Clochfaen; m. Mary Jones
son of
Jenkin Lloyd of Clochfaen; m. Mallt Morgan
son of
Rhys Llwyd ab Ieuan ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Jenkin of Clochfaen; m. Margaret Lloyd

Margaret Lloyd and her husband Rhys Llwyd were third cousins (although not of the same Lloyd family, as I mistakenly suggested in my previous post). Margaret was the daughter of Jenkin Lloyd of Berth-llwyd by his wife Dorothy Walter. The 3 Edward I descents for Jenkin Lloyd of Clochfaen come through Dorothy Walter – and specifically through her mother Mary Hackluit [or Hackluyt] and Mary’s mother Katherine Trentham.

Dorothy Walter was the daughter of Sir Edmund Walter, Chief Justice of South Wales, by his first wife Mary Hackluit. Dorothy had a sister Mary who married Sir Edward Littleton of Henley, MP and Chief Justice of North Wales, and their son was the Virginia immigrant Nathaniel Littleton. As it happens, Mary {Walter) Littleton is the subject of an article in the current issue (vol. 10) of “Foundations” (the FMG publication), and her royal descents were discussed in this group back in April 2008. Mary Hackluit and her husband Sir Edmund Walter appear in the Genealogics database, and the three Edward I descents behind Mary should be easily traceable there.

BTW Sir Edmund Walter and Mary Hackluit are also ancestral to the current Dukes of Cambridge and Sussex.
Loading...