On Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:09:59 AM UTC-7, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> On Friday, 4 August 2017 09:53:33 UTC+1, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> > On Thursday, 3 August 2017 09:23:03 UTC+1, James Dow Allen wrote:
> > > Let me direct your attention to the DF13 Y-haplogroup tree. It shows the agnatic descendants of DF13, a Great King of Western Bell Beaker. [url]https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF13/[/url] Look specifically at Y32809.
> > >
> > > Or don't bother. YFull has very little to say about it:
> > > > R-Y32809ZS4588 * ZS4584 * ZS4582+13 SNPs formed 2100 ybp, TMRCA 550 ybp info
> > > > id:YF09335
> > > > id:YF06937
> > >
> > > The "TMRCA 550 ybp" shows the most recent common ancestor of this clade to have been born 1450 AD (error bars = 1000 AD to 1750 AD). That's rather recent in genealogical terms, especially when we confirm that this man was Malcolm Drummond Chief of that Ilk, hereditary chamberlain of Lennox.
> > >
> > > Refer now to [url]http://haplogroup-r.org/tree/R.html[/url] where this clade is called "ZS4584 ZS4586." This page shows THIRTEEN different men in this haplo-clade, divided into three subclades:
> > > * two McRae
> > > * three Sinclair/St.Clair, one Unknown
> > > * six Drummond, one McRae
> > >
> > > By consulting a 3rd source -- the public page of Sinclair Project Y-chromosome (group "12") -- we infer the Sinclairs are agnatic kin of Alexander Sinclair b. 1667? Glasgow, d. 1751 Virginia, an immigrant who lived to the age of 84. Unfortunately the Internet offers little opinion as to Alexander's parents. Do any famous Americans descend from him?
> > >
> > > (I suppose Y32809 might be a smallish McRae cluster, with one bastard McRae who insists he's a Drummond sending in samples of all his uncles and brothers, packing the numbers. :-) But arguing against that idea is that R.Org is a huge database of Gaelic surname/SNP and [I]these six are the only Drummonds[/I] presented on the entire tree. I suggest we conclude that the key father of this clade is surely Malcolm Beq Drummond of That Ilk himself, the Seneschal of Lennox born about 1200.)
> > >
> > > If we accept YFull's 1450 AD date, we can be blunt: Which Drummond cuckolded Alexander Sinclair's "ancestor"? Since Drummond appears monophyletic, we might guess the cuckolding occurred before Drummond fanned out. Be ready to rescind this as more Drummonds are tested.
> > >
> > > If YFull's date is way off -- say that the Sinclair-Drummond split was 1150 AD or so -- we may guess it was Malcolm Beq's grandfather who played the two-headed game with Sinclair's wife or daughter. Note that Glasgow is almost adjacent to Lennox.
> > >
> > > Note also from the subclade listing that a very early Drummond might have been sired by McRae. (This contrasts sharply with the old legend that Drummond came from Hungary. :-) )
> > Leaving aside the Bell Beaker discussion for the moment, and concentrating on this Alexander Sinclair: DNA hardly seems likely to present the solution you're looking for. Would it not be better to start with documentary research into his origins? Judging from some of what I've seen after a quick Google search, it's by no means certain that he was a Glaswegian or, indeed, even an immigrant (see some of the speculation at http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/s/t/o/John-E-Stockman/GENE19-0001.html).
> > Looking for an appropriately prolific Drummond is taking the cart before the horse, to say the least.
> > All the best,
> > Kelsey
> To follow this up, there are more or less good abstracts of some relevant primary sources concerning this Alexander Sinclair at
> It looks as if the first document definitely relating to this man is a deed of 18 March 1734 in which he is described as being of Stafford County, planter, and in which he purchased 377 acres in Prince William County (the above website citing PW Co. Deeds, Liber A, pp. 412-415). They also speculate - reasonably, given what I understand of population movement and boundary shifts in this part of Virginia - that he is the Alexander Sinclair named in a lawsuit in Richmond County from 1704.
> What seems to me most interesting, though, is a citation to a manuscript land title book in the Virginia State Archives which apparently contains a deposition by this Alexander Sinclair dated 7 September 1745 in which he states that he is aged about seventy-nine years. This is, no doubt, the origin of the widely-repeated claim that he was born circa 1666. It's worth pointing out, though, that there's still nothing which definitively links this man with the indentured servant from Glasgow who went to Virginia in 1698, though I can see why interested researchers would have been quick to make the connection.
> Again, I would want to see much more work done on this man's origins before it even began to be worthwhile speculating about a supposed connection with Drummonds.
> All the best,
Kelsey you said above ( This is, no doubt, the origin of the widely-repeated claim that he was born circa 1666. It's worth pointing out, though, that there's still nothing which definitively links this man with the indentured servant from Glasgow who went to Virginia in 1698 ) This is so true and I have to say I have been at odds with this Mr.Sinkler or St.Clair for ages regarding this bogus information. This line of Sinkler was created in the USA most likely an Irish immigrant line. NO dna matches to any Sinclair,Sinkler or St.Clair outside of the USA indicating the name is solely of the USA. Ill put money on the MacRay connection. After years of this lines claim to the Sinclair lot, hes been finally run off.