Discussion:
Sir Lewis Clifford/Eleanor de Mowbray Question
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Nicole Forsgren
2017-05-16 23:12:06 UTC
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I have a couple of questions about the Clifford line pertaining to:

Sir Lewis de Clifford (d. 1404) and his wife Eleanor de Mowbray (d. 1387)

1st question:
I’ve been using Plantagenet Ancestry for research. It states on p. 401 that Lewis and Eleanor had one son: Lewis Clifford. Is this the same Lewis Clifford that married Anne Moleyns (dau. Of William de Moleyns and Margery)? If not, do you have any information about that particular Lewis Clifford?
I’ve also seen that the Lewis, who was married to Anne Moleyn, father’s name was William de Clifford (whose parents were Lewis de Clifford and Eleanor de Mowbray). According to Plantagenet Ancestry, Lewis and Eleanor had 1 son: Lewis. So unless the book is wrong, that is obviously not right.
I’m not sure about the dates I have for any of these, so thought I’d turn to you for some help.

2nd Question:
I’ve been researching Sir Lewis de Clifford (d. 1404), in the hopes of finding an answer to my first question. I have been finding contradicting information regarding the identity of his parents. A couple sources list Robert de Clifford/Isabel de Berkeley as his parents with Roger de Clifford as a brother. A couple other sources list Roger de Clifford (5th Lord Clifford)/Maud de Beauchamp. Can anyone clarify which, if any, is correct?

I’m beginning to think there might be more than 2 Lewis Clifford’s getting mixed up in this family line…
Thank you for your help in advance.
Paulo Canedo
2017-05-17 13:21:51 UTC
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Dugdale said that Lewis was son of Roger however Sir H.Nicholas analysed and said he was probably his brother not his son.
Nicole Forsgren
2017-05-18 18:42:45 UTC
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Yes, that's what I've discovered. Everything I've found online and through the archive are just like that. One will say Roger is Lewis' father and the next will say they are brothers. I've even found sources that list the incorrect wife, not Eleanor de Mowbray. It's frustrating, everyone copying everyone else instead of finding some documentation to prove one way or the other.
Andrew Lancaster
2017-05-24 07:44:57 UTC
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A Devon visitation makes him a son of Thomas Clifford:

http://hdl.handle.net/2027/yale.39002002213917?urlappend=%3Bseq=209

And another work which discusses his genealogy in some detail puts him a further generation back, son of Robert, and brother to the above mentioned Roger:

https://archive.org/stream/decontroversiai01scrogoog#page/n451/mode/1up

Complete Peerage, (Vol III, page 292) says "Sir Lewis Clifford, K.G., whose curious will (1404) is given by Dugdale, and who is the reputed ancestor of the Barons Clifford of Chudleigh, was probably a br., but certainly not a son, of this Lord". The Lord being referred to is Roger de Clifford b. 10 July 1333, d. 12 July 1389, aged 56.

Lewis did have a son Lewis. Nothing is known of what happened to him. Old pedigrees also often suggest he and his wife Eleanor had a son named William. For example see the Devonshire pedigree and Dugdale's Baronage. There are strong doubts about whether William is a son of Sir Lewis.

The History of Parliament article for the MP Robert Clifford claims Lewis was even from a Devonshire branch of the Cliffords, and it and many other sources seem to accept it as likely (but not proven) that he was closely related to William Clifford who married Arnold Savage's daughter in Kent. There were similarities in the arms they bore, and also the Kent family used the name Lewis a lot.

However, they do not seem to have ever been considered as potential heirs to Lewis's known daughter however.
Mike Clifford
2018-03-23 11:57:22 UTC
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I have been researching the history of the Cliffords, particularly those of Northumberland and Kent. I have sought primary records in si far as it is possible to do so electronically, and tended not to accept unequivocally family histories and visitations that cannot be supported by such sources.
There is a Robert de Clifford identified in the will of his brother Richard de Clifford who I understand have the arms of the Ellingham Cliffords (The Journal of the Northumberland & Durham Family History Society Vol. 8 No. 3 July, 1983). Some sources however have then descending from the Westmorland Cliffords, possibly a son of Sir Lewis de Clifford, knight. (Frederick Peter Mackie The Clerical Population of the Province of York University of York 1998) and more generally others suggest a descent from Lewis de Clifford’s brother Thomas, but they bore different arms

My observations are summarised below. The sources can be accessed electronically at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/olmed.shtml or http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ unless otherwise indicated.

I would welcome any definitive information that either supports or otherwise disposes of these suggested relationships.
Thanks
Mike Clifford
Richard de Clifford, the elder, clerk,
1383 appointed Warton (Morecombe bay) (CPR)
1387 holding property in Yorkshire.
1390-1398 Keeper of the Great Wardrobe
1397 Dean of York
1397-1401 Lord Privy Seal
1398 Archdeacon Canterbury
1401 Bishop of Worcester (DNB)
1407 Bishop of London
1421 died
Will names brother Robert but no children

Robert de Clifford, brother of the above
Married widow Joan before 1403.
1382 M.P. for Northumberland 1382 (CCR)
1399 appointed Kent (CPR, CFR, CP40), 1403 (CPR) 1405 (CPR) 1406 (CPR) 1407 (CPR) 1408 (CPR), 1410, (CPR) 1411 (CPR) 1415 described late Sheriff of Kent and pardoned (CPR)
William de Clifford, possibly a relative, appointed Sheriff, presumably the individual who married Eleanor / Elizabeth Savage the sister of Arnold Savage
1418 Robert again Sheriff (CPR) and made his will (22/07/1418) which names his wife Joan and a legatee and feoffee John Clyfford, clerk, living St Mildred's parish, Canterbury and property in Kent and Northumberland (CCA-DCc-ChAnt/W/212) http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/a27d0d2d-4c6c-4909-a106-f71b9bd4ff2a
1421 Named in brother's will
1427 (CPR)

Robert de Clifford who married Jacoba / Jane
I wonder if this Robert, brother of Richard, above, is the Robert de Clifford who post-1376 married as her third husband widow Jane de Strivelyn [Jacoba d'Emeldon] and who in 1386 held land at various locations in Northumberland Manors of Harnham (Bolam) and Blackhedley (Shotley),also near Hartburn and Corbridge http://archive.org/stream/archaeologiaaeli06sociuoft#page/64/mode/2up/search/clifford and CP 25/1/181/14, number 14. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_181_14.shtml
1381 CP40 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no483/CP40no483.htm
1382 enfeoffed a Richard de Clifford with Bolam https://archive.org/stream/archaeologiaael08unkngoog#page/n137/mode/2up/search/clifford
1391 Jacoba died 1391

William de Clifford who married Eleanor Elizabeth Savage the sister of Arnold Savage
I can find no unequivocal record of William’s ancestry or place of birth
Andrew Lancaster
2018-03-23 14:46:25 UTC
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Thanks for posting that Mike. Maybe no new conclusions yet, but one day hopefully someone will connect the pieces of the puzzle.
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