Discussion:
Béatrix de Gavre (Guy IX de Laval)
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m***@live.ca
2018-07-02 12:53:17 UTC
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Hello all,

Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.

Many thanks in advance

Jean Bunot
Peter Stewart
2018-07-03 01:33:00 UTC
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Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.


Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2018-07-03 04:21:00 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
The Van Gavre's around 1200-1240 need revision. The genealogical conclusions and quotations on the youngest son Raes (ancestors of the lords of Liedekerke and Breda), husband of a Van Breda-daughter don't match.

Hans Vogels
m***@live.ca
2018-07-03 22:22:44 UTC
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many thanks !!

Jean Bunot
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
2018-07-06 01:12:42 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
The Van Gavre's around 1200-1240 need revision. The genealogical conclusions and quotations on the youngest son Raes (ancestors of the lords of Liedekerke and Breda), husband of a Van Breda-daughter don't match.
Hans Vogels
Hans,

Are you referring to the above-mentioned works by Raoul de Liedkerke?

Thanks.
Hans Vogels
2018-07-06 07:00:28 UTC
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Post by J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
The genealogical conclusions and quotations on th
Peter Stewart
The Van Gavre's around 1200-1240 need revision. e youngest son Raes (ancestors of the lords of Liedekerke and Breda), husband of a Van Breda-daughter don't match.
Hans Vogels
Hans,
Are you referring to the above-mentioned works by Raoul de Liedkerke?
Thanks.
Yes.

Like I wrote earlier, the genealogical conclusions and quotations on the youngest son Raes , in the *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse*, don't match. Studying it I came to the following conclusion (if we follow the numbering by Warlop):

Razo V (Raas/Raes) of Gavere (mentioned 1181- died ca.1218)
Lord of Gavere and Liedekerke.
Married ca.1180/81
Clarissa of Herzele (1190-1220, died after 1224).
Children:
1. Razo (1190-died 1214 at Bouvigne), lord of Chièvres and Boelare.
Married ca.1205 Alice of Boelare, widow of (1) Philips of Harnes (2)
Gilles of Trazegnies.
His son Razo VII became lord of Gavere (and Chièvres) after uncle
Razo VI died.
2. Arnold (1190-dead in 1250), lord of Materne.
Married < 1210 Margaret of d’Escornaix.
3. Philip (1190- dead in 1221), lord of Velsike.
Married < 1214 Ida (remarried < 1222 Baldwin of Lens).
4. Razo VI (1214-dead in 1241), imprisoned 1214-1217 after the battle
of Bouvigne, lord of Liedekerke, lord of Gavre 1218-1241.
Married > 1219 Sophia of Breda.

The eldest three sons are mentioned onwards from 1190. That would suggest that Philip was at least 7 years old in 1190 thus born ca.1183. That would give Arnold and Razo an approximate birth year of resp. 1182 and 1181. On the other hand, one can never rule out the possibility of twins. The year 1181 coincides with the first mentioning of father Razo V so it would seem that Razo V married around 1180/81.

The elder three sons are mentioned several times alongside their father and each other. Of the youngest son Razo VI we firstly hear of when he was captured in the - for the Flemish disastrous -battle of Bouvigne on 24 Oct. 1214 against the French king. Razo seems to be imprisoned for ransom until at least the end of Oct. 1217. He was the successor of his father as lord of Gavere as his eldest brother Razo had died at Bouvigne. His other two brothers Arnold and Philip were or unwilling, incapable or dead at the time their father died so the youngest son succeeded his father and started a successful branch of the Gavre family. His wife Sophia of Breda, the eldest daughter, was in the will of 1219 of her widowed mother still unmarried so the marriage must have taken place earliest end of 1219 or shortly thereafter. Their son Raas is firstly mentioned on 15 March 1231 so must be born before 15 March 1224.

With friendly regards,
Hans Vogels
m***@live.ca
2018-07-07 16:53:27 UTC
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Hans,

Could you please provide us with the currrently accepted version of the ancestry of Catherine van Gavere.

In advance, many thanks.

Jean Bunot
m***@live.ca
2018-07-07 16:54:32 UTC
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Post by m***@live.ca
Hans,
Could you please provide us with the currrently accepted version of the ancestry of Catherine van Gavere.
In advance, many thanks.
Jean Bunot
Of course, I neant Beatrix van Gavere.
Hans Vogels
2018-07-10 17:03:45 UTC
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Hello Jean,

I'll come back to this post in about a week. I've got a painter in the house and my books (Warlop) and other copied information is boxed up and stored somewhere in the house.

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Post by m***@live.ca
Post by m***@live.ca
Hans,
Could you please provide us with the currrently accepted version of the ancestry of Catherine van Gavere.
In advance, many thanks.
Jean Bunot
Of course, I neant Beatrix van Gavere.
Hans Vogels
2018-07-16 19:31:22 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Hello Jean,
I'll come back to this post in about a week. I've got a painter in the house and my books (Warlop) and other copied information is boxed up and stored somewhere in the house.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
Post by m***@live.ca
Hans,
Could you please provide us with the currrently accepted version of the ancestry of Catherine van Gavere.
In advance, many thanks.
Jean Bunot
Of course, I meant Beatrix van Gavere.
When speaking of Warlop the correct title is Dr. Hist. E. Warlop, The Flemish Nobility before 1300, the English version (4 volumes), Kortrijk, 1976. His original doctorate was published in 1968 as De Vlaamse adel voor 1300.

Warlop (volume III nr.86 Gavere, page 803-819) follows the numbering which was given to the lords Gavere by Count G. De Liedekerke, Histoire de la Maison de Gavere et de Liedekerke, Brussels, 1957.

Generation I
Beatrice x Guy of Montmorency-Laval (succeeds)

Generation II
Razo VIII (1266-1300), † before 27-5-1301.
Lord of Gavre and Chièvres.
Nobilis 1266; knight 1271; butler of Flanders 1272.
X Beatrice of Longueval (1272).

N.B.
Warlop errs in naming a Beatrice of Strijen (married before 1282, alive 1310) as the second wife of Razo VIII. She was the second wife of his cousin Razo (1267-1306), lord of Liedekerke, Breda, Boelare, Aspelare. HV = my input

Generation III
Razo VII (1222-1253), † 4-7-1253 “battle” of Westkapelle on Walcheren.
Lord of Chièvres (1214) and Gavre (1241).
Nobilis 1243; butler of Flanders 1242; knight 1247/1248.
X Joan of Wavrin (?)(1255).

Generation IV
Razo (1190-1214), † 27-7-1214 battle of Bouvignes.
Knight 1204/05 (?); lord of Chièvres 1210 (and Boelare HV); nobilis 1210.
X (ca.1205 HV) Alice of Boelare,
widow of (1) Philips of Harnes (2) Gilles of Trazegnies.

Generation V
Razo V (1181-1217), † bef. ..1218.
Lord of Gavere and Chièvres 1206; Liedekerke 1209; Eksaarde 1214.
Nobilis 1204; knight 1204; butler of Flanders 1210.
X (ca.1280/1) Clarissa (of Herzele?) (1290).

Generation VI
Razo IV (1156-1190), † bef.1190.
Lord of Gavere, of Chièvres (1186).
Knight, butler of Flanders 1171; nobilis 1180.
X Mathilda (1166), of Liedekerke ?; of Ghent ?; of Aalst ?.

Generation VII
Razo III (1130-1150), † 1150.
Knight, lord of Gavere.
X Eve of Chièvres

Probable father.

Generation VIII
Razo II (1114-1149),† 27-6-1149.
Nobilis, butler of Flanders 1127; knight 1143.
X Elizabeth (alias Ida) (of Ghent ?)

Probable father.

Generation IX
Razo I (ca.1073-1094).
Lord of Gavere; on crusade 1096 (?).
X Catherine of Cysoing (?)

Possible father (or grandfather HV)

Generation X
Razo de Gavera (1034/67)
Likely identical to a “Ratho” or “Razo” who appears in the region of Ghent from 1031/34 on; 1035/58; 1034/58

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Hans Vogels
2018-07-17 05:43:15 UTC
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Correction
Post by Hans Vogels
Generation V
Razo V (1181-1217), † bef. ..1218.
Lord of Gavere and Chièvres 1206; Liedekerke 1209; Eksaarde 1214.
Nobilis 1204; knight 1204; butler of Flanders 1210.
X (ca.1180/1) Clarissa (of Herzele?) (1190).
With regards,
Hans Vogels
m***@live.ca
2018-07-17 14:10:17 UTC
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Many thanks, Hans, for taking the time. It is much appreciated.

The lineage you outline is pretty much what I thought it was going to be. Me too I have doubt about Jeanne de Wavrin. The children of Razo VII might be by an unknown first wife considering the chronology.

Best regards

Jean Bunot
Hans Vogels
2018-07-21 20:18:19 UTC
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I have become aware that "Joanna de Wavrin" touches a question that has been discussed in 2014 but not on this newsgroup. A possible solution is the following reconstruction.

John II of Lille (1235-1244), + 17-11-1244.
x ca.1235
Mathilde of Béthune, dtr. of William of Béthune and Elisabeth of Roesbrugge.

Children:
1. Joanna x 1251/52 Razo VII of Gavere + 4-7-1253,
xx bef.1261 Hellin I of Petegem/Cysoing (1257-1285).
2. John III of Lille (1256-).
3. Isabella of Lille (1255-).
4. Mathilde of Lille (1255).

Mathilde of Béthune remarried
xx aft. 1244
Robert II of Wavrin (1231-1273), [widower of Eustachia of Saint Pol].

Children:
5. Roger of Wavrin (1267-).
6. Sibyl of Wavrin (1294-), x John of Gavere, lord of Hérimez.
7. Wilhelmina of Wavrin (1278-), x John of Gavere, lord of Mater & Schorisse.
8. Isabella of Wavrin (1279-).

From Robert II of Wavrin first marriage:
a. Hellin III of Wavrin (1255-).
b. N.N. of Wavrin (1241).
c. Sibyl of Wavrin.
d. Maria of Wavrin.
e. Elisabeth of Wavrin, x John Mulart of Gavere-Liedekerke.
f. Robert of Wavrin (1277-), x N.N, xx Mathilde of Lille.

In this reconstruction Joanna, the wife of Razo VII of Gavere + 4-7-1253, was a stepdaughter of Robert II of Wavrin.

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Post by m***@live.ca
Many thanks, Hans, for taking the time. It is much appreciated.
The lineage you outline is pretty much what I thought it was going to be. Me too I have doubt about Jeanne de Wavrin. The children of Razo VII might be by an unknown first wife considering the chronology.
Best regards
Jean Bunot
m***@live.ca
2018-07-21 20:37:31 UTC
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Many thanks, Hans.

Then Jeanne de Wavrin becomes Jeanne de Lille, probably married by her mother and step-father, hence de confusion.

May I ask where that discussion occured ?

Regards

Jean
Hans Vogels
2018-07-22 10:06:47 UTC
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Hello Jean,

The discussion started on the Dutch newsgroup of De Nederlandse Adel in 2009 with a discrepancy in the literature between a marriage Kuyc-Diest and was picked up again by me in 2014.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/soc_nederlandse_adel/conversations/topics/10185

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/soc_nederlandse_adel/search/messages?query=Diest-Cysoing-Kuyc

and ended in private correspondence with the fellow researcher.

The conclusion was that Eduard Warlop (The Flemish Nobility) and Lieve Marien (author on the lords of Diest, 1970) erred in their reconstructions which led them to different solutions. Warlop parked the chronology discrepancy by introducing a question mark (Wavrin?) and suggesting an alternative option Beveren. Marien sought a different solution but got sidetracked by something else.

I saw that I misinterpreted my own notes.
The corrected version should be:

John II of Lille (1235-1244), + 17-11-1244.
x ca.1235
Mathilde of Béthune, dtr. of William of Béthune and Elisabeth of Roesbrugge.

Children:
1. Joanna x 1251/52 Razo VII of Gavere + 4-7-1253,
xx bef.1261 Hellin I of Petegem/Cysoing (1257-1285).
2. John III of Lille (1256-).
3. Isabella of Lille (1255-).
4. Mathilde of Lille (1255), x Robert of Wavrin, lord of Dranouter
5. Roger of Lille (1267-).
6. Sibyl of Lille (1294-), x John of Gavere, lord of Hérimez.

Mathilde of Béthune remarried xx aft. 1244
Robert II of Wavrin (1231-1273), [widower of Eustachia of Saint Pol].

Children:
7. Elisabeth of Wavrin (see below f), x John Mulart of Gavere-Liedekerke.
8. Wilhelmina of Wavrin(1278-), x John of Gavere, lord of Mater & Schorisse.
9. Isabella of Wavrin (1279-).

From Robert II of Wavrin first marriage:
a. daughter N. of Wavrin (1241 engaged to eldest son of John II of Lille).
b. Hellin III of Wavrin (1255-).
c. Sibyl of Wavrin.
d. Maria of Wavrin.
e. Robert of Wavrin (1277-), x N.N, xx Mathilde of Lille.
f. Elisabeth (see above 7), depending on her marriage year.

In this reconstruction Joanna, the wife of Razo VII of Gavere + 4-7-1253, was a stepdaughter of Robert II of Wavrin.

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Post by m***@live.ca
Many thanks, Hans.
Then Jeanne de Wavrin becomes Jeanne de Lille, probably married by her mother and step-father, hence de confusion.
May I ask where that discussion occured ?
Regards
Jean
Peter Stewart
2018-07-22 11:46:35 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Hello Jean,
The discussion started on the Dutch newsgroup of De Nederlandse Adel in 2009 with a discrepancy in the literature between a marriage Kuyc-Diest and was picked up again by me in 2014.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/soc_nederlandse_adel/conversations/topics/10185
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/soc_nederlandse_adel/search/messages?query=Diest-Cysoing-Kuyc
and ended in private correspondence with the fellow researcher.
The conclusion was that Eduard Warlop (The Flemish Nobility) and Lieve Marien (author on the lords of Diest, 1970) erred in their reconstructions which led them to different solutions. Warlop parked the chronology discrepancy by introducing a question mark (Wavrin?) and suggesting an alternative option Beveren. Marien sought a different solution but got sidetracked by something else.
I saw that I misinterpreted my own notes.
John II of Lille (1235-1244), + 17-11-1244.
x ca.1235
Mathilde of Béthune, dtr. of William of Béthune and Elisabeth of Roesbrugge.
1. Joanna x 1251/52 Razo VII of Gavere + 4-7-1253,
xx bef.1261 Hellin I of Petegem/Cysoing (1257-1285).
2. John III of Lille (1256-).
3. Isabella of Lille (1255-).
4. Mathilde of Lille (1255), x Robert of Wavrin, lord of Dranouter
5. Roger of Lille (1267-).
6. Sibyl of Lille (1294-), x John of Gavere, lord of Hérimez.
Mathilde of Béthune remarried xx aft. 1244
Robert II of Wavrin (1231-1273), [widower of Eustachia of Saint Pol].
7. Elisabeth of Wavrin (see below f), x John Mulart of Gavere-Liedekerke.
8. Wilhelmina of Wavrin(1278-), x John of Gavere, lord of Mater & Schorisse.
9. Isabella of Wavrin (1279-).
a. daughter N. of Wavrin (1241 engaged to eldest son of John II of Lille).
b. Hellin III of Wavrin (1255-).
c. Sibyl of Wavrin.
d. Maria of Wavrin.
e. Robert of Wavrin (1277-), x N.N, xx Mathilde of Lille.
f. Elisabeth (see above 7), depending on her marriage year.
In this reconstruction Joanna, the wife of Razo VII of Gavere + 4-7-1253, was a stepdaughter of Robert II of Wavrin.
Warlop questioned whether Jeanne belonged to the Wavrin family only under her Gavre marriage - in his treatment of the Wavrins themselves he expressed no reservation at all. Presumably this is following the chronicle misattributed to Baudouin d'Avesnes, written ca 1280, where the wife of Raso is stated to have been a daughter of Robert of Wavrin and Mathilde of Béthune, "Entre ces choses moru l'avoeresse de Betune, femme le senechal Robiert, et il reprinst la fille monseignour Guillaume de Betune, qui avoit este femme le chastelain de Lisle. Si ot de li un fil qui ot non Robers et pluseurs filles. Il maria l'une a monseignour Rason de Gavre" (see from line 25 on p 444 here: http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb00000865_scan:444.html?sortIndex=010%3A050%3A0025%3A010%3A00%3A00&pageNo=444).

But perhaps Warlop had run out of puff by the time he reached the Ws, because he made a very peculiar mistake in marrying two maternal half-siblings to each other - the second wife of Robert "Brunel" (Wavrin no. 32) is identified as Mathilde (Lille no. 33), both of them given in different places as Mathilde of Béthune's offspring by successive husbands.

Peter Stewart
m***@live.ca
2018-07-22 15:02:24 UTC
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Many thanks Peter and Hans.

I believe it is indeed that chronicle at the origin of the genealogical information. If we accept it as such, it is therefore impossible chronologically for Jeanne de Wavrin to be the mother of Rasse VIII de Gavre who may have been born to an otherwise unrecorded first wife of Rasse VII.

Jean Bunot

CE Wood
2018-07-13 03:11:28 UTC
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Unfortunately, neither of those books is available for view in the USA. Are they available elsewhere?

CE Wood
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2018-07-13 03:32:04 UTC
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Post by CE Wood
Unfortunately, neither of those books is available for view in the USA. Are they available elsewhere?
I doubt that they can be found online - the publication dates (1961 and 1969), and for that matter the obscurity of the subject, suggest that this is highly unlikely. I provided Google Books links for the two works by Raoul only for information, not for direct access. I have not seen these for many years and never took detailed notes when I did see them (in a library).

Warlop cited a work that I haven't seen, by G. de Liedekerke rather than by Raoul, published in 1959, and followed the dynastic numbering used in it.

Peter Stewart
Post by CE Wood
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
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