Discussion:
Béatrix de Gavre (Guy IX de Laval)
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m***@live.ca
2018-07-02 12:53:17 UTC
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Hello all,

Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.

Many thanks in advance

Jean Bunot
Peter Stewart
2018-07-03 01:33:00 UTC
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Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.


Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2018-07-03 04:21:00 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
The Van Gavre's around 1200-1240 need revision. The genealogical conclusions and quotations on the youngest son Raes (ancestors of the lords of Liedekerke and Breda), husband of a Van Breda-daughter don't match.

Hans Vogels
m***@live.ca
2018-07-03 22:22:44 UTC
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many thanks !!

Jean Bunot
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
2018-07-06 01:12:42 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
The Van Gavre's around 1200-1240 need revision. The genealogical conclusions and quotations on the youngest son Raes (ancestors of the lords of Liedekerke and Breda), husband of a Van Breda-daughter don't match.
Hans Vogels
Hans,

Are you referring to the above-mentioned works by Raoul de Liedkerke?

Thanks.
Hans Vogels
2018-07-06 07:00:28 UTC
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Post by J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
The genealogical conclusions and quotations on th
Peter Stewart
The Van Gavre's around 1200-1240 need revision. e youngest son Raes (ancestors of the lords of Liedekerke and Breda), husband of a Van Breda-daughter don't match.
Hans Vogels
Hans,
Are you referring to the above-mentioned works by Raoul de Liedkerke?
Thanks.
Yes.

Like I wrote earlier, the genealogical conclusions and quotations on the youngest son Raes , in the *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse*, don't match. Studying it I came to the following conclusion (if we follow the numbering by Warlop):

Razo V (Raas/Raes) of Gavere (mentioned 1181- died ca.1218)
Lord of Gavere and Liedekerke.
Married ca.1180/81
Clarissa of Herzele (1190-1220, died after 1224).
Children:
1. Razo (1190-died 1214 at Bouvigne), lord of Chièvres and Boelare.
Married ca.1205 Alice of Boelare, widow of (1) Philips of Harnes (2)
Gilles of Trazegnies.
His son Razo VII became lord of Gavere (and Chièvres) after uncle
Razo VI died.
2. Arnold (1190-dead in 1250), lord of Materne.
Married < 1210 Margaret of d’Escornaix.
3. Philip (1190- dead in 1221), lord of Velsike.
Married < 1214 Ida (remarried < 1222 Baldwin of Lens).
4. Razo VI (1214-dead in 1241), imprisoned 1214-1217 after the battle
of Bouvigne, lord of Liedekerke, lord of Gavre 1218-1241.
Married > 1219 Sophia of Breda.

The eldest three sons are mentioned onwards from 1190. That would suggest that Philip was at least 7 years old in 1190 thus born ca.1183. That would give Arnold and Razo an approximate birth year of resp. 1182 and 1181. On the other hand, one can never rule out the possibility of twins. The year 1181 coincides with the first mentioning of father Razo V so it would seem that Razo V married around 1180/81.

The elder three sons are mentioned several times alongside their father and each other. Of the youngest son Razo VI we firstly hear of when he was captured in the - for the Flemish disastrous -battle of Bouvigne on 24 Oct. 1214 against the French king. Razo seems to be imprisoned for ransom until at least the end of Oct. 1217. He was the successor of his father as lord of Gavere as his eldest brother Razo had died at Bouvigne. His other two brothers Arnold and Philip were or unwilling, incapable or dead at the time their father died so the youngest son succeeded his father and started a successful branch of the Gavre family. His wife Sophia of Breda, the eldest daughter, was in the will of 1219 of her widowed mother still unmarried so the marriage must have taken place earliest end of 1219 or shortly thereafter. Their son Raas is firstly mentioned on 15 March 1231 so must be born before 15 March 1224.

With friendly regards,
Hans Vogels
m***@live.ca
2018-07-07 16:53:27 UTC
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Hans,

Could you please provide us with the currrently accepted version of the ancestry of Catherine van Gavere.

In advance, many thanks.

Jean Bunot
m***@live.ca
2018-07-07 16:54:32 UTC
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Post by m***@live.ca
Hans,
Could you please provide us with the currrently accepted version of the ancestry of Catherine van Gavere.
In advance, many thanks.
Jean Bunot
Of course, I neant Beatrix van Gavere.
Hans Vogels
2018-07-10 17:03:45 UTC
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Hello Jean,

I'll come back to this post in about a week. I've got a painter in the house and my books (Warlop) and other copied information is boxed up and stored somewhere in the house.

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Post by m***@live.ca
Post by m***@live.ca
Hans,
Could you please provide us with the currrently accepted version of the ancestry of Catherine van Gavere.
In advance, many thanks.
Jean Bunot
Of course, I neant Beatrix van Gavere.
CE Wood
2018-07-13 03:11:28 UTC
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Unfortunately, neither of those books is available for view in the USA. Are they available elsewhere?

CE Wood
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2018-07-13 03:32:04 UTC
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Post by CE Wood
Unfortunately, neither of those books is available for view in the USA. Are they available elsewhere?
I doubt that they can be found online - the publication dates (1961 and 1969), and for that matter the obscurity of the subject, suggest that this is highly unlikely. I provided Google Books links for the two works by Raoul only for information, not for direct access. I have not seen these for many years and never took detailed notes when I did see them (in a library).

Warlop cited a work that I haven't seen, by G. de Liedekerke rather than by Raoul, published in 1959, and followed the dynastic numbering used in it.

Peter Stewart
Post by CE Wood
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@live.ca
Hello all,
Anybody aware of contemporary documents providing us with the correct ancestry of Béatrix, dame de Gavre, dame en partie de Chièvres, married to Guy IX, sire de Laval et Vitré.
Her ancestry was thoroughly documented by Raoul de Liedkerke in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: Les Rasse* (Bruges, 1961), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=T7E8AQAAIAAJ, and in *La maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke: lignée des Rasse* (Bruges, 1969), https://books.google.com.au/books?id=lK3FngEACAAJ.
Peter Stewart
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