English/American One-Name Studies, 1500-1700

[Paul Gifford]

With the recent advances in both research on the development and
spread of English surnames, as well as indexing of wills, archival
resources, etc., etc., I'm wondering about current research projects
attempting to identify the origins of 17th-century English immigrants
to America. It seems that most of the English One-Name Studies
(within the Guild of One-Name Studies) are mostly limited to fairly
rare names and to recent (19th-century) data.

I've put together a website (https://home.comcast.net/~pgifford) with
my research on the Gifford (including Giffard, Jefford, etc.) name
mostly with data from about 1500 to 1700. Using the arguments that
David Hey and others have made about the geographic stability of
surnames over time, I've tried to identify all the historic geographic
clusters of the name in England. I've put together tentative
genealogies of the armigerous Giffard (Gifford) families for this
period and tried to do tentative genealogies and prosopographies for
all others.

There are really two names here with the same spelling. Not "Gifford"
and "Giffard," though---they are essentially "Gifford" and "Jifford."
Most of the armigerous families are "Jiffords," generally using the
"Giffard" spelling, which was common to both in the 14th century, but
then shifted to "Gyffard," "Gyfford," and, by 1600, to "Gifford."
About this time, some of the branches started reverting to the
Medieval spelling.

The goal of this project is to identify the origins of William
Gifford, the ancestor of about 85% of American Giffords (and by far
the largest family of this name of English descent anywhere) and to
identify, in part through DNA analysis, the total number of distinct
families. There are few male-line descendants of the ancient Giffard
families----only one of the Devon family, descended from Robert
Giffard, of Weare Giffard (c.1130), and a very limited number from
Osbert Giffard (c.1086), kinsman of the Conqueror's companion Walter
Giffard. But at this point we have four DNA "base lines" and one
major cluster's DNA haplotype identified.

Wrottesley in 1902 compiled genealogies of the earlier manorial
families, so I'm not intending to repeat his work, not having access
to inquisitions post mortem, except published ones, anyway. I've gone
through all the published lay subsidy rolls and poll taxes from the
14th century and have found a remarkable similarity to the
distribution of the name at a later period, although it seems that the
name died out in some areas.

Since ancestry.com has indexed the 1841 and later censuses, it's
become very easy, using Archer Software's GenMap UK, to create maps
showing locations of a particular name. The indexing and the software
are all fairly new, so it's exciting to experiment with this stuff.

Anyway, I would like to know if there are similar websites with
similar studies, using maps, prosopography, etc., to identify the
origins of a 17th-century immigrant. It wouldn't be practical to do
it for someone with a common name, but it turns out that "Gifford" was
not so common in England. My site's only been up for a couple of
months and it's been changing a lot.

[pj.evans]

On Apr 20, 10:46 am, Paul Gifford <***@umflint.edu> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Paul Gifford
I've put together a website (https://home.comcast.net/~pgifford) with
my research on the Gifford (including Giffard, Jefford, etc.) name
mostly with data from about 1500 to 1700.

[snip]

Link doesn't work (background of page shows only). Do you really mean
https?

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by pj.evans
[snip]

Post by Paul Gifford
I've put together a website (https://home.comcast.net/~pgifford) with
my research on the Gifford (including Giffard, Jefford, etc.) name
mostly with data from about 1500 to 1700.

[snip]
Link doesn't work (background of page shows only). Do you really mean
https?

This link seems to work:

https://home.comcast.net/~pgifford11/

MA-R

[John Brandon]

Post by Paul Gifford
There are really two names here with the same spelling. Not

"Gifford"

Post by Paul Gifford
and "Giffard," though---they are essentially "Gifford" and "Jifford."
Most of the armigerous families are "Jiffords," generally using the
"Giffard" spelling, which was common to both in the 14th century, but
then shifted to "Gyffard," "Gyfford," and, by 1600, to "Gifford."
About this time, some of the branches started reverting to the
Medieval spelling.

Is this a wide-accepted explanation? You seem to be using the
instances of John of Lynn/ Boston's name having sometimes been
rendered "Jefferd" as part of your reasoning here. The surname
dictionary I looked at seemed to imply the name "Gifford" (and
variants) was always formerly pronounced "jiff-UD" (and perhaps
underwent a change in pronunciation within the last two hundred
years), unless I am making some of that up (has been known to happen).

Are there any instances of the Sandwich, Mass., family's name having
been spelled "Jifford" or "Jefford" in the early colonial records?

[Paul Gifford]

Post by John Brandon
Is this a wide-accepted explanation? You seem to be using the
instances of John of Lynn/ Boston's name having sometimes been
rendered "Jefferd" as part of your reasoning here. The surname
dictionary I looked at seemed to imply the name "Gifford" (and
variants) was always formerly pronounced "jiff-UD" (and perhaps
underwent a change in pronunciation within the last two hundred
years), unless I am making some of that up (has been known to happen).

The pronunciation of the Devonshire name Giffard (families of the Earl
of Halsbury,
that of the Barons Gifford, and the Giffards of Chillington, are all
as "Jifford." So
are the Devonshire place names Aveton Gifford, Weare Giffard, and
sometimes
Fonthill Giffard, in Wiltshire. Bowers Gifford in Essex is with a
hard "g."
More examples elsewhere are in the website. Naturally I would love to
get
particular examples from people in England today. The name "Jefford"
in
England certainly is a variant. The example of John Gifford of Lynn
didn't
lead me to this conclusion, although it helps place him with one of
the
families (probably Chillington).

I don't know what dictionary you're referring to, but I wouldn't put
a
lot of stock in a short entry with minimal research. I can't think
of any examples in the English language where a soft "g" became
hard over time.

Post by John Brandon
Are there any instances of the Sandwich, Mass., family's name having
been spelled "Jifford" or "Jefford" in the early colonial records?

None whatsoever. There was a small family in Marblehead, however,
where "Jefford" was used. I think they were fishermen from
Devonshire.
The Cambridgeshire family, which descends no doubt from a Domesday
tenant, Giffard, always uses a hard "g." DNA shows that the William
Gifford family isn't connected to the Cambridgeshire family.

Paul Gifford

[Nathaniel Taylor]

Post by Paul Gifford

Post by John Brandon
Is this a wide-accepted explanation? You seem to be using the
instances of John of Lynn/ Boston's name having sometimes been
rendered "Jefferd" as part of your reasoning here. The surname
dictionary I looked at seemed to imply the name "Gifford" (and
variants) was always formerly pronounced "jiff-UD" (and perhaps
underwent a change in pronunciation within the last two hundred
years), unless I am making some of that up (has been known to happen).

The pronunciation of the Devonshire name Giffard (families of the Earl
of Halsbury,
that of the Barons Gifford, and the Giffards of Chillington, are all
as "Jifford." So
are the Devonshire place names Aveton Gifford, Weare Giffard, and
sometimes Fonthill Giffard, in Wiltshire. Bowers Gifford in Essex
is with a hard "g."
More examples elsewhere are in the website. Naturally I would love to
get particular examples from people in England today. The name "Jefford"
in England certainly is a variant. The example of John Gifford of Lynn
didn't lead me to this conclusion, although it helps place him with one of
the families (probably Chillington).

Perhaps. For what it's worth, though, John Gifford of Lynn used an
armorial seal with the three lions passant in pale.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[John Brandon]

Post by Nathaniel Taylor
Perhaps. For what it's worth, though, John Gifford of Lynn used an
armorial seal with the three lions passant in pale.
Nat Taylorhttp://www.nltaylor.net- Hide quoted text -

Yes, I told him this in a private email several weeks ago. It doesn't
fit with the theory apparently ...

[Paul Gifford]

Post by John Brandon

Post by Nathaniel Taylor
Perhaps. For what it's worth, though, John Gifford of Lynn used an
armorial seal with the three lions passant in pale.
Nat Taylorhttp://www.nltaylor.net-Hide quoted text -

Yes, I told him this in a private email several weeks ago. It doesn't
fit with the theory apparently ...

Then you should probably look at John, son of Simon Gifford, of
Darlington. Simon was born probably around 1575. His son
John inherited a house in Doncaster, York, from his uncle Robert,
in 1649. Check the parish registers of Laughton-en-le-Morthen,
Yorkshire, Darlington, Durham. Chillington seemed a possibility
because there was a John of the right age to be John, Sr. However,
they were Catholics, while the Yorkshire family seems to have
been Puritan.

Paul Gifford

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

There were Giffards in Scotland as well. The Hays of Tweeddale
represent the senior line and have done so for hundreds of years, but
there was a junior line Giffard of Sherrifhall in the C16. The
surname still exists in Scotland, but is not very common. GWS Barrow
suggested somewhere, probably Anglo-Norman Era, that there was a link
between Somerset and the Scottish Giffards.

[Paul Gifford]

On Apr 21, 2:34 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

Post by Alex Maxwell Findlater
There were Giffards in Scotland as well. The Hays of Tweeddale
represent the senior line and have done so for hundreds of years, but
there was a junior line Giffard of Sherrifhall in the C16. The
surname still exists in Scotland, but is not very common. GWS Barrow
suggested somewhere, probably Anglo-Norman Era, that there was a link
between Somerset and the Scottish Giffards.

I'm concentrating on English Giffords, because of identifying my male-
line
ancestor, but I'm descended from the Giffords of Yester, so I'm aware
of
them. Apparently Scottish Giffords pronounce the name with a hard
"g," so I wonder whether the early migrants were Anglo-Normans with
the Norman-French _Giffard_ ("bloated cheeks") name and changed
the pronunciation, or whether their name was the patronymic "Giffard,"
with a hard "g." There were a lot of Scottish Gifford immigrants to
the U.S. The largest cluster in Scotland is in the Shetland Islands.

Paul

[John Brandon]

Post by Paul Gifford
Then you should probably look at John, son of Simon Gifford, of
Darlington. Simon was born probably around 1575. His son
John inherited a house in Doncaster, York, from his uncle Robert,
in 1649. Check the parish registers of Laughton-en-le-Morthen,
Yorkshire, Darlington, Durham. Chillington seemed a possibility
because there was a John of the right age to be John, Sr. However,
they were Catholics, while the Yorkshire family seems to have
been Puritan.
Paul Gifford

The Giffords of Darlington were a branch of the Giffords of Twyford,
Bucks. (see Surtees' _Durham_ which has a nice pedigree chart showing
this). And the arms of the Twyford branch were "three lions in pale,"
which matches with the New England seal. Is there any _particular_
reason you associate this Darlington family with the New England
John? There were quite a few John Giffords floating around at this
time, unfortunately.

[Paul Gifford]

Post by John Brandon

Post by Paul Gifford
Then you should probably look at John, son of Simon Gifford, of
Darlington. Simon was born probably around 1575. His son
John inherited a house in Doncaster, York, from his uncle Robert,
in 1649. Check the parish registers of Laughton-en-le-Morthen,
Yorkshire, Darlington, Durham. Chillington seemed a possibility
because there was a John of the right age to be John, Sr. However,
they were Catholics, while the Yorkshire family seems to have
been Puritan.
Paul Gifford

The Giffords of Darlington were a branch of the Giffords of Twyford,
Bucks. (see Surtees' _Durham_ which has a nice pedigree chart showing
this). And the arms of the Twyford branch were "three lions in pale,"
which matches with the New England seal. Is there any _particular_
reason you associate this Darlington family with the New England
John? There were quite a few John Giffords floating around at this
time, unfortunately.

Look at my website; click on "Genealogies of Armigerous Families," and
then "Gifford of Middle Claydon, etc." It's based on published
visitation
pedigrees, including the one you mention, plus PCC wills and other
unpublished sources. I haven't tried to go further, but it's simply
a
question of tracing all the lines. Obviously it's not a finished
genealogy---
basically it's a quick and dirty one. At this point I've looked at
most Gifford
PCC and local court wills, and the will of Robert Gifford, the vicar
of Laughton-en-le-
Morthen, Yorkshire , mentions two nephews named John. One was Simon's
son, and the other was Roger's. Simon was in Darlington (admon. 1655,
by
John, I think), and Roger was in Doncaster. Their father was John
Gifford
(d. 1603), vicar of Laughton, and that parish register should be
searched for
baptisms (I think it starts in 1568). John's eldest son, Robert,
looks to have
been born around 1563, so the baptisms of Roger (d. 1642) and Simon
may be
recorded. They look to be the right age to be the parents of John,
Sr. I haven't
yet looked at the local archdeaconry courts in Yorkshire for wills.

The other reason, apart from chronology, would be the suggestion that
this family
had Puritan tendencies. Robert (d. 1649) is mentioned by Brewster (I
think) and
Nathaniel Morton (search Google Books), as a Puritan, but not a
radical one. Since
he succeeded his father as vicar, it could well be that his father was
too, and the
rest of them. However, I wouldn't put much in this. Had this branch
been Catholic,
as many other Giffard gentry families were, it would seem less likely
that he would
have gone to New England.

There weren't many Giffords in Yorkshire, but there were these lines
(as well as Thomas,
of Scotton) that should be traced out. I would also like to
investigate the origins
of the cluster that dates from around 1600 in the Clapham/Bentham
area, as well
as to find a descendant of this branch to take a DNA test, though they
have nothing
to do with the Middle Claydon family. But there were no others.

Maybe there was some kind of iron mining around Darlington or
Doncaster that got
him started in those ventures. There really weren't that many gentle
John Giffords
who were contemporaries. Get the PCC will of Robert (I'd give you
more details
now, but it's on a different computer) and follow up on the leads.

Paul Gifford

[John Brandon]

Maybe there was some kind of iron mining around Darlington or

Post by Paul Gifford
Doncaster that got
him started in those ventures. There really weren't that many gentle
John Giffords
who were contemporaries. Get the PCC will of Robert (I'd give you
more details
now, but it's on a different computer) and follow up on the leads.
Paul Gifford

Hmmm, might do this sometime, but unless there's something you're not
saying here, it seems like it would be a goose chase to me. We know
the New England man was "of All Hallows Barking, London, Merchant" in
1657. It is claimed that the N.E. man married a Margaret Temple, and
such a record is found in the next parish to Allhallows, St. Katherine
by Tower, in 1650.

In addition, it seems there were connections to Gloucestershire
(Gloucester, Bream, and Cirencester), as the N.E. man was probably the
son of the man who leased the royal ironworks (the involvement of
Thomas Pury, M.P., in both the Gloucestershire and N.E. ironworks is
key to this argument).

It is uncertain exactly how "Puritan" the N.E. Gifford was. (1) He
married in an established church (St. Katherine by the Tower); (2) he
was a dear friend of Samuel Maverick, known for his Royalist
tendencies (indeed, Gifford and Maverick were said to have been
together "solicitors for the government of New England"--presumably
they had wished to be made governors [co-governors?] in the
Massachusetts-Bay); (3) Gifford never became a freeman of the
Massachusetts Bay.

Did Michael Andrews-Reading find any Gifford entries in the Allhallows
records? Or is this more of his policy of "coy-and-toy"?

[Paul Gifford]

Post by John Brandon
Hmmm, might do this sometime, but unless there's something you're not
saying here, it seems like it would be a goose chase to me. We know
the New England man was "of All Hallows Barking, London, Merchant" in
1657. It is claimed that the N.E. man married a Margaret Temple, and
such a record is found in the next parish to Allhallows, St. Katherine
by Tower, in 1650.

Suit yourself. It's the logical next step. John clearly belonged to
a
gentry family; the seal suggests it was this family; the elder John
would be the right age to be a son of Roger or Simon (and the
baptismal record should be in one of those parishes; I don't think
they are in the IGI for those years). I may look at those sometime.

Post by John Brandon
In addition, it seems there were connections to Gloucestershire
(Gloucester, Bream, and Cirencester), as the N.E. man was probably the
son of the man who leased the royal ironworks (the involvement of
Thomas Pury, M.P., in both the Gloucestershire and N.E. ironworks is
key to this argument).

The Gloucestershire Record Office has a good name index to its
records.
Maybe a deed or some other record would show his name and
permanent residence (like Doncaster). The Giffords in Gloucestershire
are pretty well accounted for. Those in the south were colliers,
incidentally. Socially they were yeomanry at best.

Post by John Brandon
It is uncertain exactly how "Puritan" the N.E. Gifford was. (1) He
married in an established church (St. Katherine by the Tower); (2) he
was a dear friend of Samuel Maverick, known for his Royalist
tendencies (indeed, Gifford and Maverick were said to have been
together "solicitors for the government of New England"--presumably
they had wished to be made governors [co-governors?] in the
Massachusetts-Bay); (3) Gifford never became a freeman of the
Massachusetts Bay.

His religion probably wouldn't matter, although having a Puritan
background might make living in Massachusetts a little more
tolerable. The point is that the Puritan background might
connect him with a network in Massachusetts. .

I don't understand how merchants who apparently weren't
members of livery companies could live in London. I've found
numerous examples of people styled "merchant" living in
London, but without the usual occupational style, such as
"haberdasher and citizen of London." Can anyone answer
this? Could someone pay a certain amount to become
free without joining a company? This would probably
have been the case with John, unless you have seen
a style that would indicate membership in a company.
But he could easily have been in London as the agent
for his father, who was trading in iron ore, for example,
with interests in various parts of England, including
Gloucestershire.

John Gifford, nephew of Emmanuel Gifford, of Whitechapel,
a bachelor, of the King's Bedchamber (here's another
lead), administered his estate in 1638. PCC administrations
don't say much, but it indicates that he did come to London
on business. I'm pretty sure this Emmanuel was the
one named as Simon's brother in the Durham Visitation.

Paul Gifford

[Nathaniel Taylor]

Post by Paul Gifford

Post by John Brandon
It is uncertain exactly how "Puritan" the N.E. Gifford was. (1) He
married in an established church (St. Katherine by the Tower); (2) he
was a dear friend of Samuel Maverick, known for his Royalist
tendencies (indeed, Gifford and Maverick were said to have been
together "solicitors for the government of New England"--presumably
they had wished to be made governors [co-governors?] in the
Massachusetts-Bay); (3) Gifford never became a freeman of the
Massachusetts Bay.

His religion probably wouldn't matter, although having a Puritan
background might make living in Massachusetts a little more
tolerable. The point is that the Puritan background might
connect him with a network in Massachusetts.

For what it's worth, Iron John Gifford does seem to have found living in
Massachusetts rather intolerable--which could have been because of scorn
for Puritans, though he was rather indiscriminately scornful of others.

Post by Paul Gifford
John Gifford, nephew of Emmanuel Gifford, of Whitechapel,
a bachelor, of the King's Bedchamber (here's another
lead), administered his estate in 1638. PCC administrations
don't say much, but it indicates that he did come to London
on business. I'm pretty sure this Emmanuel was the
one named as Simon's brother in the Durham Visitation.

Who was the bachelor of the king's bedchamber, nephew John or uncle
Emmanuel?

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

[Paul Gifford]

Post by Nathaniel Taylor
Who was the bachelor of the king's bedchamber, nephew John or uncle
Emmanuel?

The PCC admons. for 1631-1648 shows a reference to Emmanuel Gifford,
of Whitehall, Westminster, bachelor, of the King's Bedchamber,
administration to John Gifford, kinsman (this was in 1634). There
were
other Emmanuel Giffords in the period, but I think this one was the
Emmanuel named as a son of John Gifford, "presbyter," in the
Visitation of Oxfordshire. He may have been born around 1575
and was there when James was king. I'm tempted to crack a joke
at this point, but I'll pass. In any case, there should be more
information about him.

Paul Gifford

[John Brandon]

Post by Paul Gifford
Suit yourself. It's the logical next step. John clearly belonged to
a
gentry family; the seal suggests it was this family; the elder John
would be the right age to be a son of Roger or Simon (and the
baptismal record should be in one of those parishes; I don't think
they are in the IGI for those years). I may look at those sometime.

Probably it would be sensible to check the Darlington family out, but
there were many other descendants of the Middle Claydon/ Twyford
family, some of whom were in London or at least closer to London.
I've suspected the Steene/ Bottlebridge branch of the family because
they would have had a Brydges descent (through the Cole family of
Gloucs.).

Post by Paul Gifford
His religion probably wouldn't matter, although having a Puritan
background might make living in Massachusetts a little more
tolerable. The point is that the Puritan background might
connect him with a network in Massachusetts. .

As Nat says, he was a very difficult person, but I suspect he may have
been a Congregationalist (his business partner, Ezekiel Fogge fancied
himself a Congregationalist preacher and had a license to hold
Congregationalist meetings in his house in London--ca. 1660s). Were
Congregationalists close to Presbyterians, by any chance? (I suck
majorly at religious history.)

I hope you will be willing to share any records Michael Andrews-
Reading provides from the Allhallows records ... :-)

[Paul Gifford]

Post by John Brandon
Probably it would be sensible to check the Darlington family out, but
there were many other descendants of the Middle Claydon/ Twyford
family, some of whom were in London or at least closer to London.
I've suspected the Steene/ Bottlebridge branch of the family because
they would have had a Brydges descent (through the Cole family of
Gloucs.).

That one seems to have died out. The will of George Gifford, of
London,
esquire, dated 20 Nov. 1643, proved 10 Feb. 1646/7 (PCC), gives
to his mother Frances, £20; to the child of my late sister Elizabeth
Harris that is kept at Thomas Mabbott's house at Bugden, £10; to my
sister Margaret Mabbott's children, £20, to be equally divided; to my
sister Joyce Burgan, £5; to cousins Frances Nicholls, of Halsted,
Leics., Mary Orton of Lea grange, Leics., Mrs. Anne Brooke of
Hasler, Staffs., Mrs. Elizabeth Orton, wife of Edward Orton in
Gracechurch Street, London, ironmonger, Mrs. Jane Parrett , of
Bellhall, Worcs., Mrs. Grisall Nichols of Halsted, Leics., £5 apiece,
to buy rings; to Mrs. Kerswall, wife of Thomas Kirswall, living at
the sign of the Kinges arms, etc., 20s.; rest to cousin Edward
Orton of London, ironmonger.

He gave gifts to many nieces and nephews, and if his brothers
William and Thomas had any children, I would have expected
him to give them something. Plus I haven't found them
anywhere, in will indexes, Huntingdonshire Marriage Index,
etc.

Post by John Brandon
I hope you will be willing to share any records Michael Andrews-
Reading provides from the Allhallows records ... :-)

I haven't received any, but I would doubt they would
much relevance to your problem.

Here is an abstract of the will of Robert Gifford, vicar of
Laughton-en-le-Morthen, Yorkshire, dated 19 Oct. 1641, proved
26 Nov. 1657. To my wife Mary, one house and croft in
Doncaster in a street called Margate, after her deceased, to
John Gifford, eldest son of my brother Simon Gifford; to wife
Mary my house in Doncaster, being in the high street, now
in possession of Gilbert Erg---(?), also a close near Potterie
Coyce now in the occupation of Thomas West of Doncaster,
gent., together with a Close lying in the Lordshire of
Wheatly now in the occupation of my sister Gifford of
Doncaster; the last rented house to William Gifford second
son of my brother Simon Gifford after her decease; to
Robert Gifford, third son of my brother Simon my messuage
in Rother[h]am now in the tenure of William Stamforth;
to my sister Seton one stand bed, a feather bed, etc; to
Elizabeth and Margaret, her daughters, 20s. each; to John,
William, and Robert, sons of the said Elizabeth [no surname
given], 20s. each; to John Gifford and Elizabeth, children
of my brother Roger Gifford, 20s. each; to Elizabeth and
Frances, daughters of my brother Simon Gifford, 20s.;
to my brother Simon Gifford a Bible that was my first
wife's; to wife Mary my great Bible and Calvin upon Job;
to my nephew William Gifford son of Simon all my
Latin books; to my cousin Gifford South, 20s.; to Richard
Fretwell, Henry Fretwell, and Simon Fretwell, sons of my
aunt Jane Fretwell, 3s.4d. each; to the poor of Laughton
and St., John, 40s.; rest to William Gifford aforesaid, nephew,
whom he makes sole executor; neighbor Anthonie Hatfield of
Laughton to be supervisor. Witnesses: Anthonie Hatfeild,
Rob: Seton, Ralph Pickforke. Proved 26 November 1657
by oath of William Gifford, clerk. (PCC)

I haven't tried to follow up on these leads, but it proves
that there were two John Giffords living in 1641 who were
children of men born roughly around 1565-1575 and thus
chronologically right to have been the father of John
(and to have rightfully borne the arms that the younger
John used). Simon died intestate and his estate was
administered in 1655 by his son John (PCC admons.)
There are some references to Giffords in Doncaster
at Access to Archives. The IGI doesn't include the
parish registers of Laughton-en-le-Morthen or
Doncaster, and I don't think Darlington, either.
I haven't looked at the published Yorkshire
will indexes. There were few Giffords in the
North of England, so any references in Yorkshire or
Durham materials would potentially be useful, too.

Paul Gifford

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by Paul Gifford

Post by John Brandon
I hope you will be willing to share any records Michael Andrews-
Reading provides from the Allhallows records ... :-)

I haven't received any, but I would doubt they would
much relevance to your problem.

Paul,


I'm still in the process of working through the AHB registers, which
is likely to take me some time, and have only partial notes of the
Giffords/Geffords so far, but give me a few days and I'll get some
material to you - it will probably only go up to about 1600 as that is
the period I am interested in (and which is on-topic here).

Kind regards, Michael

[Paul Gifford]

Post by m***@btinternet.com
I'm still in the process of working through the AHB registers, which
is likely to take me some time, and have only partial notes of the
Giffords/Geffords so far, but give me a few days and I'll get some
material to you - it will probably only go up to about 1600 as that is
the period I am interested in (and which is on-topic here).

Thanks. No rush.

Regarding the John Giffords (and I won't say any more):

According to Joseph Hunter, _Collections Concerning the Church or
Congregation of Protestant Separatists Formed at Scrooby_ (1849), p.
50,
(see Google Books), one of the family of Robert Gifford, vicar of
Laughton-en-le-Morthen, Yorkshire (d. 1649) was Major-General
John Gifford, of the Parliamentary Army. In 1643, Maj. Gen. Gifford,
under the command of Thomas Fairfax, captured Wakefield. Then,
according to Andrew Hopper, "'Fitted for Desperation': Honour and
Treachery in Parliament's Yorkshire Command, 1642-1643," _History_
86 (2001): 138-156, in 1643, Maj. Gen. Gifford was suspected of
turning Royalist and was a deserter from the parliamentary command
in Yorkshire in 1643. Could he be the same man as Capt. John
Gifford, of Cirencester, 1647? If not, it could be his cousin John.
But I haven't located what happened to Maj. Gen. Gifford after 1643.

He shouldn't be confused with:
John Giffard, of Brightley, Devonshire, Royalist colonel
John Gifford (d. 1655), born Kent, died Bedford, a Royalist major,
then a Baptist preacher and John Bunyan's mentor
John Gifford, Royalist major, held land at Eastbury, Berkshire,
which was confiscated; he lived in London.

Paul Gifford

[John Brandon]

Post by Paul Gifford

Post by m***@btinternet.com
I'm still in the process of working through the AHB registers, which
is likely to take me some time, and have only partial notes of the
Giffords/Geffords so far, but give me a few days and I'll get some
material to you - it will probably only go up to about 1600 as that is
the period I am interested in (and which is on-topic here).

Thanks. No rush.
According to Joseph Hunter, _Collections Concerning the Church or
Congregation of Protestant Separatists Formed at Scrooby_ (1849), p.
50,
(see Google Books), one of the family of Robert Gifford, vicar of
Laughton-en-le-Morthen, Yorkshire (d. 1649) was Major-General
John Gifford, of the Parliamentary Army. In 1643, Maj. Gen. Gifford,
under the command of Thomas Fairfax, captured Wakefield. Then,
according to Andrew Hopper, "'Fitted for Desperation': Honour and
Treachery in Parliament's Yorkshire Command, 1642-1643," _History_
86 (2001): 138-156, in 1643, Maj. Gen. Gifford was suspected of
turning Royalist and was a deserter from the parliamentary command
in Yorkshire in 1643. Could he be the same man as Capt. John
Gifford, of Cirencester, 1647? If not, it could be his cousin John.
But I haven't located what happened to Maj. Gen. Gifford after 1643.

I don't think a Major. Gen in 1643 would be a Capt. in 1649/50.

Post by Paul Gifford
John Giffard, of Brightley, Devonshire, Royalist colonel
John Gifford (d. 1655), born Kent, died Bedford, a Royalist major,
then a Baptist preacher and John Bunyan's mentor
John Gifford, Royalist major, held land at Eastbury, Berkshire,
which was confiscated; he lived in London.
Paul Gifford

One doesn't have to be musical to know the meaning of the word
"orchestrated" ... :-). Fine. I've never begged for anything in my
life (nothing relating to genealogy, at least ...).

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by Paul Gifford

Post by m***@btinternet.com
I'm still in the process of working through the AHB registers, which
is likely to take me some time, and have only partial notes of the
Giffords/Geffords so far, but give me a few days and I'll get some
material to you - it will probably only go up to about 1600 as that is
the period I am interested in (and which is on-topic here).

Thanks. No rush.

Paul

I've finished going through the AHB and neighbouring registers. I am
about to head off for a day or two, but will forward the material to
you on my return.

MA-R

[John Brandon]

Post by Paul Gifford
That one seems to have died out. The will of George Gifford, of
London,
esquire, dated 20 Nov. 1643, proved 10 Feb. 1646/7 (PCC), gives
to his mother Frances, £20; to the child of my late sister Elizabeth
Harris that is kept at Thomas Mabbott's house at Bugden, £10; to my
sister Margaret Mabbott's children, £20, to be equally divided; to my
sister Joyce Burgan, £5; to cousins Frances Nicholls, of Halsted,
Leics., Mary Orton of Lea grange, Leics., Mrs. Anne Brooke of
Hasler, Staffs., Mrs. Elizabeth Orton, wife of Edward Orton in
Gracechurch Street, London, ironmonger, Mrs. Jane Parrett , of
Bellhall, Worcs., Mrs. Grisall Nichols of Halsted, Leics., £5 apiece,
to buy rings; to Mrs. Kerswall, wife of Thomas Kirswall, living at
the sign of the Kinges arms, etc., 20s.; rest to cousin Edward
Orton of London, ironmonger.

Thanks, that's a help.

Post by Paul Gifford

Post by John Brandon
I hope you will be willing to share any records Michael Andrews-
Reading provides from the Allhallows records ... :-)

I haven't received any, but I would doubt they would
much relevance to your problem.

So, even though the New England man was _known_ to have been "of
Allhallows Barking, Merchant" in 1657, the records of that parish
wouldn't have much relevance to my problem?

Post by Paul Gifford
Here is an abstract of the will of Robert Gifford, vicar of
Laughton-en-le-Morthen, Yorkshire, dated 19 Oct. 1641, proved
26 Nov. 1657. To my wife Mary, one house and croft in
Doncaster in a street called Margate, after her deceased, to
John Gifford, eldest son of my brother Simon Gifford; to wife
Mary my house in Doncaster, being in the high street, now
in possession of Gilbert Erg---(?), also a close near Potterie
Coyce now in the occupation of Thomas West of Doncaster,
gent., together with a Close lying in the Lordshire of
Wheatly now in the occupation of my sister Gifford of
Doncaster; the last rented house to William Gifford second
son of my brother Simon Gifford after her decease; to
Robert Gifford, third son of my brother Simon my messuage
in Rother[h]am now in the tenure of William Stamforth;
to my sister Seton one stand bed, a feather bed, etc; to
Elizabeth and Margaret, her daughters, 20s. each; to John,
William, and Robert, sons of the said Elizabeth [no surname
given], 20s. each; to John Gifford and Elizabeth, children
of my brother Roger Gifford, 20s. each; to Elizabeth and
Frances, daughters of my brother Simon Gifford, 20s.;
to my brother Simon Gifford a Bible that was my first
wife's; to wife Mary my great Bible and Calvin upon Job;
to my nephew William Gifford son of Simon all my
Latin books; to my cousin Gifford South, 20s.; to Richard
Fretwell, Henry Fretwell, and Simon Fretwell, sons of my
aunt Jane Fretwell, 3s.4d. each; to the poor of Laughton
and St., John, 40s.; rest to William Gifford aforesaid, nephew,
whom he makes sole executor; neighbor Anthonie Hatfield of
Laughton to be supervisor. Witnesses: Anthonie Hatfeild,
Rob: Seton, Ralph Pickforke. Proved 26 November 1657
by oath of William Gifford, clerk. (PCC)
I haven't tried to follow up on these leads, but it proves
that there were two John Giffords living in 1641 who were
children of men born roughly around 1565-1575 and thus
chronologically right to have been the father of John
(and to have rightfully borne the arms that the younger
John used). Simon died intestate and his estate was
administered in 1655 by his son John (PCC admons.)
There are some references to Giffords in Doncaster
at Access to Archives. The IGI doesn't include the
parish registers of Laughton-en-le-Morthen or
Doncaster, and I don't think Darlington, either.
I haven't looked at the published Yorkshire
will indexes. There were few Giffords in the
North of England, so any references in Yorkshire or
Durham materials would potentially be useful, too.

Thanks, but nothing really stands out from this will other than two
John Giffords, which was a very common name at the time.

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by Paul Gifford
Anyway, I would like to know if there are similar websites with
similar studies, using maps, prosopography, etc., to identify the
origins of a 17th-century immigrant. It wouldn't be practical to do
it for someone with a common name, but it turns out that "Gifford" was
not so common in England. My site's only been up for a couple of
months and it's been changing a lot.

Paul

I have been recently extracting material from the unpublished parish
registers of All Hallows by the Tower, and note there are some late
16th century Giffords (also spelled Gefford) there - would you be
interested in these? Presumably they lived somewhere near to the
Tower of London.

Regards, Michael

[John Brandon]

Post by m***@btinternet.com
I have been recently extracting material from the unpublished parish
registers of All Hallows by the Tower, and note there are some late
16th century Giffords (also spelled Gefford) there - would you be
interested in these? Presumably they lived somewhere near to the
Tower of London.
Regards, Michael

Michael, how conveenient! You may be aware that J. Gifford of New
England was described in Sept. 1657 as being "of the Parish of All-
hallowes Barking London mrchant aged thirtie fower yeeres or
thereabouts" [Suffolk Co., Mass., Deeds, 3:155-56].

Was there a John baptised in All Hallows ca. 1623/4?

[Paul Gifford]

Post by m***@btinternet.com
I have been recently extracting material from the unpublished parish
registers of All Hallows by the Tower, and note there are some late
16th century Giffords (also spelled Gefford) there - would you be
interested in these? Presumably they lived somewhere near to the
Tower of London.

Thanks for the offer. I would very much appreciate the entries. I
have
a lot of London records already, but if they are unpublished, I
probably
don't have them. Note that the "Gefford" spelling seems to indicate
the "Jefford" pronunciation.

Paul Gifford

[m***@gmail.com]

Hi im a Gifford living near a place in doncaster that a john gifford owned. Its called hooton pagnall hall. They owned it for around 40 years apparently. They were catholics and are buried in saint marys and st chad in brewood England. I have been trying to trace back my ancestors to see if they are of the same line as my family have always lived in the same area which is a 10 minute walk from hooton pagnall hall. Also my great grandfather was called william. But i cant find a name for his father. I have my great great grandmas name and she was called mary ggifford. Hope this info is a help.

Marc Gifford

[Ian Goddard]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Hi im a Gifford living near a place in doncaster that a john gifford owned. Its called hooton pagnall hall. They owned it for around 40 years apparently. They were catholics and are buried in saint marys and st chad in brewood England. I have been trying to trace back my ancestors to see if they are of the same line as my family have always lived in the same area which is a 10 minute walk from hooton pagnall hall. Also my great grandfather was called william. But i cant find a name for his father. I have my great great grandmas name and she was called mary ggifford. Hope this info is a help.
Marc Gifford

1. As this message came from Google Groups I'm assuming a minimum of
newsgroup knowledge and replying both to group and direct to the poster.
In general you should look to the group for replies. Also, most
people using newsgroups use a proper Usenet service - Google Groups in
this respect is the rather sad remnant of a Usenet archive. The
soc.genealogy.britain FAQ at http://www.genealogy-britain.org.uk/ should
be helpful.

2. You don't say at what date the Giffords owned Hooton Pagnall Hall so
without doing our own research we've no idea whether it was medieval or
not. If it wasn't medieval soc.genealogy.britain would be more
appropriate. In any case genealogy works backwards from the present and
that would certainly belong in s.g.b. rather than s.g.m. although it
seems to be overrun with spam these days.

3. In general newsgroups don't offer a general finding service for
genealogists except for particularly challenging problems. As you seem
to be starting out your best first step would be to buy a good
beginners' book on British/English genealogy - there's a good variety to
choose from and also look at what your local family history society can
offer: https://doncasterfhs.co.uk/

4. Basically up to 1837 you work with Civil Registration certificates
for births, marriages and deaths (BMD). A useful search site for those
is https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl which enables you to click
through to the General Register Office to buy certificates. (Hint:
always buy them from the GRO - buying through other agencies costs
more). Before 1837 you need to rely on parish registers for baptisms,
marriages and burials.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/HootonPagnell tells you who
holds the originals of these - Donny archives which is handy for you!
Also, from 1841 there are census records which complement and
cross-check on the BMD data. familysearch.org is a general free
genealogical search site (I assume that as you're a Yorkshireman you
have the same aversion as myself to spending cash) but the subscription
sites Ancestry and FindMyPast contain more original document images;
your local library may well have a subscription for one of these you can
use.

5. As you're asking a lot of people to read what you write, rather than
imposing on them the extra effort of reading, please take the extra
effort in writing and use capital letters where appropriate. That puts
the effort on one person, you, instead of on the many which is more
efficient and likely to produce more replies.

Ian

[Vance Mead]

I wouldn't wish anyone to go to soc.genealogy.britain

A quick googling tells me that Hooton Pagnell Hall was granted by the crown in 1520 to William Fitzwilliam, Earl of Southampton, sold in 1556 to John Gifford, sold 1605 to Sir Richard Hutton...

Some dates and residence for great grandfather William Gifford would help. It should be possible to trace his ancestors in the census, wills, parish records, etc.

[P J Evans]

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by m***@gmail.com
Hi im a Gifford living near a place in doncaster that a john gifford owned. Its called hooton pagnall hall. They owned it for around 40 years apparently. They were catholics and are buried in saint marys and st chad in brewood England. I have been trying to trace back my ancestors to see if they are of the same line as my family have always lived in the same area which is a 10 minute walk from hooton pagnall hall. Also my great grandfather was called william. But i cant find a name for his father. I have my great great grandmas name and she was called mary ggifford. Hope this info is a help.
Marc Gifford

1. As this message came from Google Groups I'm assuming a minimum of
newsgroup knowledge and replying both to group and direct to the poster.
In general you should look to the group for replies. Also, most
people using newsgroups use a proper Usenet service - Google Groups in
this respect is the rather sad remnant of a Usenet archive. The
soc.genealogy.britain FAQ at http://www.genealogy-britain.org.uk/ should
be helpful.
2. You don't say at what date the Giffords owned Hooton Pagnall Hall so
without doing our own research we've no idea whether it was medieval or
not. If it wasn't medieval soc.genealogy.britain would be more
appropriate. In any case genealogy works backwards from the present and
that would certainly belong in s.g.b. rather than s.g.m. although it
seems to be overrun with spam these days.
3. In general newsgroups don't offer a general finding service for
genealogists except for particularly challenging problems. As you seem
to be starting out your best first step would be to buy a good
beginners' book on British/English genealogy - there's a good variety to
choose from and also look at what your local family history society can
offer: https://doncasterfhs.co.uk/
4. Basically up to 1837 you work with Civil Registration certificates
for births, marriages and deaths (BMD). A useful search site for those
is https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl which enables you to click
always buy them from the GRO - buying through other agencies costs
more). Before 1837 you need to rely on parish registers for baptisms,
marriages and burials.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/HootonPagnell tells you who
holds the originals of these - Donny archives which is handy for you!
Also, from 1841 there are census records which complement and
cross-check on the BMD data. familysearch.org is a general free
genealogical search site (I assume that as you're a Yorkshireman you
have the same aversion as myself to spending cash) but the subscription
sites Ancestry and FindMyPast contain more original document images;
your local library may well have a subscription for one of these you can
use.
5. As you're asking a lot of people to read what you write, rather than
imposing on them the extra effort of reading, please take the extra
effort in writing and use capital letters where appropriate. That puts
the effort on one person, you, instead of on the many which is more
efficient and likely to produce more replies.
Ian

I don't know about non-US users, but FamilySearch, while still free, now requires that you sign up for an account. (I have yet to do so, because some of the information they want is past my personal-information release limit.)

[Ian Goddard]

Post by P J Evans
I don't know about non-US users, but FamilySearch, while still free, now requires that you sign up for an account. (I have yet to do so, because some of the information they want is past my personal-information release limit.)

The standard approach to such pointless demands for accounts is to make
up a name and anything else they want. I took this up with them and got
a nonsense reply. In return they have a nonsense account.

I really don't know why people do these things, especially in these days
of GDPR.

Ian

[P J Evans]

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by P J Evans
I don't know about non-US users, but FamilySearch, while still free, now requires that you sign up for an account. (I have yet to do so, because some of the information they want is past my personal-information release limit.)

The standard approach to such pointless demands for accounts is to make
up a name and anything else they want. I took this up with them and got
a nonsense reply. In return they have a nonsense account.
I really don't know why people do these things, especially in these days
of GDPR.
Ian

Name, not a problem. Age, okay (they don't want minors signing up). Birthdate: nope, they don't need that. Gender - they don't actually need that, either. (I was also thinking they need a box for "other".)

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Ian Goddard

Post by P J Evans
I don't know about non-US users, but FamilySearch, while still free, now requires that you sign up for an account. (I have yet to do so, because some of the information they want is past my personal-information release limit.)

The standard approach to such pointless demands for accounts is to make
up a name and anything else they want. I took this up with them and got
a nonsense reply. In return they have a nonsense account.

The demand, from familysearch.org, is not 'pointless' from their point of view. Some of the people who grant permission for their records to be used by familysearch.org were reluctant to allow them to just be 'freely out on the web', but were appeased with a promise that only 'members' of the website could access it after logging in.

The difference is so small to be essentially zero to anyone familiar with the internet and computers. To some 85 year old priest in a village in Italy apparently these guarantees are impactful.

---Joe C

--Joe C

[Vance Mead]

Post by j***@gmail.com
The demand, from familysearch.org, is not 'pointless' from their point of view. Some of the people who grant permission for their records to be used by familysearch.org were reluctant to allow them to just be 'freely out on the web', but were appeased with a promise that only 'members' of the website could access it after logging in.
The difference is so small to be essentially zero to anyone familiar with the internet and computers. To some 85 year old priest in a village in Italy apparently these guarantees are impactful.

The suspicion arises that, if they collect a lot of information, they can sell it onwards.

[m***@gmail.com]

Hi, sorry for the delayed reply to you helpful people. My grandfathers, father was born on the seventh of October 1889. His name was William Gifford. His mothers name was Mary Gifford. He was registered in Stanley, Wakefield. Uk. His father is not registered on the birth certificate. I will check the archives at doncaster and wakefield.
Much appreciated and kind regards,
Marc Gifford.

[Ian Goddard]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Hi, sorry for the delayed reply to you helpful people. My grandfathers, father was born on the seventh of October 1889. His name was William Gifford. His mothers name was Mary Gifford. He was registered in Stanley, Wakefield. Uk. His father is not registered on the birth certificate. I will check the archives at doncaster and wakefield.

Check for his mother taking out a maintenance order.

Ian

[m***@gmail.com]

Thank you, i will check tomorrow and post my update.
regards
Marc Gifford.

[Vance Mead]

Was Mary Gifford her maiden name? There was no father on the birth certificate: runaway husband or never married?

In the 1881 census there's a Mary Gifford, born 1871, daughter of John and Ann, living in Thornes Lane, Alverthorpe cum Thornes, Wakefield.

[Vance Mead]

Following up on my previous. Mary Gifford, the daughter of John Gifford, the son of Samuel Gifford.

Familysearch:
John Gifford, born 1842, son of Samuel Gifford, married March 1863 in Wakefield to Anne Reyner, born 1842, daughter of Richard Reyner.

1881 census:
Mary Gifford, daughter of above, born about 1871.

Familysearch:
Mary Gifford, born about 1870, daughter of John Gifford, married March 1891 in St Mary’s Wakefield, to William Hargraves, born about 1869, son of Thomas Hargraves.

1901 census:
William Hargreaves, born 1869 in Wakefield, living in Sheffield St Simon.
Spouse Mary Hargreaves, born 1871 in Wakefield.
Eldest son: “Willie” Hargreaves, age 11, born about 1890 in Wakefield.

Since Willie was born in about 1890, before the wedding of William Hargraves/Hargreaves and Mary, could he have been William Gifford, Mary's son?

Post by Vance Mead
Was Mary Gifford her maiden name? There was no father on the birth certificate: runaway husband or never married?
In the 1881 census there's a Mary Gifford, born 1871, daughter of John and Ann, living in Thornes Lane, Alverthorpe cum Thornes, Wakefield.

[CE Wood]

The Giffords who lived in Hooton Pagnell were from Chichester, Sussex.

A cursory search found much to follow up. Very helpful is:

_Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Vol. 5_, pp 78-81, at:

https://books.google.com/books?id=mAo5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA78&dq=%22john+gifford+of+chichester%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLoeHDyafdAhWKHzQIHQxQCq4Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22john%20gifford%20of%20chichester%22&f=false

In 1556, Hooton Pagnell was bought from John FitzWilliam of Kingsley, Hants, by John Gifford, Esq., of Chichester, Sussex. On his death it passed to his son, John. Being held of Queen Elizabeth, the lands were forfeited in 1596, because John was a recusant. They were leased in 1600/1601, to Henry Gifford and conveyed to Sir Richard Hutton in 1605/6.

Good hunting in Chichester.


CE Wood

Post by m***@gmail.com
Hi im a Gifford living near a place in doncaster that a john gifford owned. Its called hooton pagnall hall. They owned it for around 40 years apparently. They were catholics and are buried in saint marys and st chad in brewood England. I have been trying to trace back my ancestors to see if they are of the same line as my family have always lived in the same area which is a 10 minute walk from hooton pagnall hall. Also my great grandfather was called william. But i cant find a name for his father. I have my great great grandmas name and she was called mary ggifford. Hope this info is a help.
Marc Gifford