Discussion:
Edward St. John and Anastasia de Aton
(too old to reply)
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-07 16:47:57 UTC
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All,
May I ask again? Please correct me if I have not got this correct.

1. Robert de St. John of Basing (1199-1266) m. Agnes de Cantilupe, daughter of William Cantilupe and Milicent Gournay.

2. Sir John St. John of Basing (1225-1302) m. Alice Fitz Piers

3. Edward St. John (1259?-) m. Eve Alta Ripa (de Hauterive, Dawtrey), (d. aft. 1336?) grand daughter of Sir William. During Reign of Edward I, Dawtrey inheritance passed to Eve (1272-1302) SxAC, Vol. 29; 1315 St. John purchased Barvalington, Sussex and was granted free warren in 1334,
1324 Henry Neville sued Edward St. John Alan de ___fold in Tolinton, Petteworth, ___eketon and Loutegarsaleto to Henry for life with the remainder to John son of Roger de Shevelstrode, with contingent remainder to Eve, late wife of Roger de Shevelstrode.
Eve Alta Ripa married Shevelstrode, William Paynel and Edward St. John by whom a son, Edward St. John, Jr.

4. Edward St. John (1304-1389) m. Anastasia de Aton

4. Elizabeth St. John m. (d. 1433), m. 1) George Brewes. d. 1418, 2) Thomas Slyfield of Great Bookham
Elizabeth, the widow of George Brewes, had an assignment of dower out of his lands in Horsham, Crawley, Roughey and Notehurst, Sussex and also in Bromley Surrey'
The monumental brass at Great Bookham, Surrey. reads: "His iacet Elizabeth nup' Thome Slyfield at quonda ux Georgii Brewes armigi filie Edwardi Seynt John milit que obiti xxiii mes Augusti ao dni ? iiii xxxii.[1]

[1] http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-379-1/dissemination/pdf/vol_25/surreyac025_033-100_stephenson.pdf





Pat
a***@mindspring.com
2015-08-07 17:44:08 UTC
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Hi Pat

It is not clear to me which Edward was father of Elizabeth.

According to Douglas Richardson there were two comtemporaneous Edward St Johns, one m. to Anastasia de Aton, the other to one Alice (see post to SGM dated 30 Jan 2015, re: Complete Peerage Addition: Sir William de Aton, Knt., Lord Aton (died 1388).)

The two Edwards appear related.

Doug Smith
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-07 18:09:05 UTC
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Thank you so much. There is no doubt that the Sir Edward who married Eve Dawtrey is in the appropriate line for me, it is the link between that Sir Edward St. John and the Elizabeth, 'daughter of Edward St. John' who married Brewes and Slifield, that is of concern. I noted that Douglas has used Alice and Anastasia interchangeably in some references. Should I be looking for an Alice who married Edward St. John?
Pat
Post by a***@mindspring.com
Hi Pat
It is not clear to me which Edward was father of Elizabeth.
According to Douglas Richardson there were two comtemporaneous Edward St Johns, one m. to Anastasia de Aton, the other to one Alice (see post to SGM dated 30 Jan 2015, re: Complete Peerage Addition: Sir William de Aton, Knt., Lord Aton (died 1388).)
The two Edwards appear related.
Doug Smith
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Douglas Richardson
2015-08-08 19:21:11 UTC
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Dear Pat ~

As best I can tell, there no less than five contemporary Edward [de] Saint John's, all of whom were knights.

1. Sir Edward de Saint John, styled the uncle, died 1348, of Litchfield and Sherborne St. John, Hampshire, married Eve Dautry.
2. Sir Edward de Saint John, died 1389, of Londesborough, Yorkshire, married Anastasia de Aton.
3. Sir Edward de Saint John, styled the nephew, died 1384, of Wolverton, Hampshire, married Joan.
4. Sir Edward Saint John, died by 1398, of Kent, married Alice.
5. Edward de Saint John, living 1380, of Clothall, Rushden, and Wallington, Hertfordshire, married Elizabeth.

#1 and #2 were father and son. #3 was the nephew of #1. #3 had no issue. #4 was evidently closely related to #2. I haven't placed #5.

Inasmuch as your Elizabeth Saint John was a young widow in 1418, and later died in 1433, my guess would be Sir Edward Saint John #4 above was her father.

In an earlier post, I speculated that Alice, widow of Edward de Saint John #4, might be the same person as Anastasia, widow of Edward de Saint John #2. I've since proved that they were separate and distinct persons.

For further particulars of #1 and #2, please see my book, Royal Ancestry (5 volume set), published in 2013.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Post by Patricia A. Junkin via
Thank you so much. There is no doubt that the Sir Edward who married Eve Dawtrey is in the appropriate line for me, it is the link between that Sir Edward St. John and the Elizabeth, 'daughter of Edward St. John' who married Brewes and Slifield, that is of concern. I noted that Douglas has used Alice and Anastasia interchangeably in some references. Should I be looking for an Alice who married Edward St. John?
Pat
Post by a***@mindspring.com
Hi Pat
It is not clear to me which Edward was father of Elizabeth.
According to Douglas Richardson there were two comtemporaneous Edward St Johns, one m. to Anastasia de Aton, the other to one Alice (see post to SGM dated 30 Jan 2015, re: Complete Peerage Addition: Sir William de Aton, Knt., Lord Aton (died 1388).)
The two Edwards appear related.
Doug Smith
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Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-09 03:33:33 UTC
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Afraid I may have been too long in last post so will break it up....

Dear Douglas,

I appreciate so very much the opportunity to dialogue with you. The St. John family touches many of the associations of the de la Bisse family antiently. Reginald and Roger St. John with John de la Bisse witness a charter of Richard de Clare in 1261. John St. John of Langeham had interest in Hedgecourt, Surrey. And, then we come to the Honor of Petworth. Without doubt, the Eva who married the Edward St. John was a Dawtrey.

1274. Inter Willm. De Alta Ripa (Dawtrey) pet’ Johem….kel et Evam ejus ten’: De quadraginta acris terre in Lugegareshall ____ placitum fuit inter eos:--Wills. Recognivit predictam terram esse? Eve:--Pro hoc fine Johes st Eve concesserunt Willo. Predicta terram et quicquid ipsa Eva prius habuit in parochial Ludgershal de dona Willi. Le Zuche sine ullo retinimento tenenda reddendo ___den’ as Natale Domini et faciendo capitalibus dominnis &: Et P—terea Wills. Dedit eis quadraginta et quinque marcas. [2 Edw. I Westm. A die Sci. Martini in xv dies (File. No.9)[1] Sussex Record Society. Vol VII. London. 1908. p. 90.

1320/1 Pardon to Edward de Sancto Johanne for coming to (apud) 'la Coudraye' by Midhurst, and abducting Eva, late wife of William Paynel, 1320/1 [Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1317-1321, pp. 559-560]. COWDRAY/4934/f 29
Eve Alta Ripa married Shevelstrode, William Paynel and Edward St. John

I believe the Zouches held of the Percys via Queen Adeliza and Joscelin Louvayne. Lora de la Bisse is holding Heyshot of the Percys.

My challenge is to understand the generation between Edward St. John and Eve Dawtrey.

That their son was Edward, as well as John, is proven here:
15 EDWARD III. Matthew son of Herbert to have ratification of the settlement of the manor of Weighton on himself for life, with remainder to Edward de Sancto Johanne and Eva his wife for their lives, remainder to Edward, their son, and the heirs of his body, remainder to John, their son, and the heirs of his body, remainder to the right heirs of the said Matthew.

........
Douglas Richardson
2015-08-09 21:05:52 UTC
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Dear Pat ~

There is some material on early members of the Saint John family published in MSS of Shrewsbury & Coventry Corps.; Earl of Radnor, Sir Walter Corbet, Bart. & others (Hist. MSS Comm. 15th Rpt., Appendix, Part X) (1899): 173, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=tvALAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA173

This material refers to Edward de Saint John [1316-17]; John de Saint John and Edward de Saint John and Joan his wife [living 1365-6]; John de Saint John and Edward de Saint John, his kinsman [living 1369-70]; Sir Edward de Saint John, lord of Stopham, and Joan his wife [living 1374-5]; Edward son of John de Saint John [living 1375-6]; and William de Saint John, lord of Ludeshulve [i.e., Litchfield, Hampshire] [living 1414-15].

I believe Sir Edward de Saint John, lord of Stopham, and Joan his wife, are identical with the person that I have identified in my earlier post as the third Sir Edward de Saint John, of Wolverton and Ewhurst, Hampshire, who died 1384. That Sir Edward was the son and heir of Roger de Saint John, of Ewhurst, Hampshire, who died in 1314. Sir Edward [died 1384] and his wife, Joan, died without issue.

My file notes indicate that in 1364 Edward de Saint John and Joan his wife settled the manors of Almodington (in Earnley), Bercourt and Wildbridge (in Yapton), Linch, and Stopham, Sussex on themselves and the male heirs of their bodies, with contingent remainder to John, son of Richard, Earl of Arundel, and the heirs male of his body. Accordingly, after their respective deaths without male issue, these manors passed in 1386 to John's son and heir, John de Arundel the younger.

If correct, then Sir Edward de Saint John (son of Roger) can not be the same person as Edward son of John de Saint John who was living as stated above in 1375-6. I believe Edward son of John de Saint John, living 1375-6, is the person I have identified as the fourth Sir Edward de Saint John, of Kent, who died by 1398.

If correct, then I assume Edward son of John de Saint John, living 1375-6, was the son of John de Saint John, living 1328, who was a younger son of Sir John de Saint John, 1st Lord Saint John of Basing (died 1329), by his 1st wife, Isabel de Courtenay.

This then would be my tentative placement of your Elizabeth Saint John, wife of George Brewes and Thomas Slyfield, as daughter of Sir Edward de Saint John (died by 1398), son of John (living 1328), son of Sir John (died 1329).

How do you descend from Elizabeth Saint John?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-09 23:28:27 UTC
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Dear Douglas,

This confirms that Joan had no issue by Edward St. John of Stopham.
1379 Edward St. John, knight, on commission of oyer and terminer with Richard , earl of Arundel, Sussex[1] 1387 "Edward Seynt Johan" chivaler, Surrey and Sussex (vacated and surrendered and nothing thereof was done.”[2] 4 Richard II. 2500. Richard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey, v. Robert Tregoz, chivaler; 1½ acres 1 rood 6 perches of land in Goryng and the advowson of the church of the same vill, which Edward Seynt John, chivaler, and Joan his wife held for life of same Joan; the reversion to the Earl. (File 74. No. 20.)


[1] http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v1/body/Richard2vol1page0042.pdf

[2] ttp://www.mocavo.com/Calendar-of-the-Fine-Rolls-Preserved-in-the-Public-Record-Office-Volume-10/581924/218


10 Rich 1387 II IPM Joan late the wife of Edward Seynt Johan (St. John), knight: Surrey, Sussex[1]
May 14. To Robert Loxle escheator in Sussex. Order to remove the king's Westminster, hand and meddle no further with the manors of Bargham and Hamme, a messuage, 64 acres of land, 15| acres of meadow with a fishery in Gretham, 41. of rent in Walderton and 20 acres of land in Codham called Wynteres, delivering up any issues thereof taken, saving to the king his wardship of the manor of Goryngge with the members, namely Haydone and Dadesham, the manor of Preston and 40 acres of arable land, 4 acres of meadow, a dovecot and 65. 2d. of rent in Perham ; as the king has learned by inquisition, taken by the escheator, that Joan who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight at her death held no lands in that county in chief nor of others in her demesne as of fee nor in service, but held all the premises for life by gift of Richard Wolvyn parson of Bargham, Robert Overton clerk and others to her and Henry Treygos sometime her husband and to the heirs of the said Henry, and that the manor of Goryngge with the members and the premises in Perham are held of the king by knight service as of the honour of Walyngforde, and the manor of Preston likewise as of the honour of Mold, and the residue of the premises of others than the king, and that Edward son of Robert son of the said Henry and Joan is their cousin and next heir, and of the age of nine years and
upwards.[2] This Edward St. John lord of Stopham.

[1] C 136/46/20
[2]CALENDAR OF THE CLOSE ROLLS, PRESERVED IN THE
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE. PREPARED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF THE DEPUTY KEEPER OF THE RECORDS.
RICHARD II. VOL. III. A.D. 1385—1389. ISSUED BY AUTHORITY OT HIS MAJESTY S PRINCIPAL SECRETARY OF STATE
LONDON: PUBLISHED BY HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE.
1921. https://archive.org/stream/calendarofclo03grea/calendarofclo03grea_djvu.txt


I seem to run long, I will address the other next.
Pat
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Pat ~
https://books.google.com/books?id=tvALAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA173
This material refers to Edward de Saint John [1316-17]; John de Saint John and Edward de Saint John and Joan his wife [living 1365-6]; John de Saint John and Edward de Saint John, his kinsman [living 1369-70]; Sir Edward de Saint John, lord of Stopham, and Joan his wife [living 1374-5]; Edward son of John de Saint John [living 1375-6]; and William de Saint John, lord of Ludeshulve [i.e., Litchfield, Hampshire] [living 1414-15].
I believe Sir Edward de Saint John, lord of Stopham, and Joan his wife, are identical with the person that I have identified in my earlier post as the third Sir Edward de Saint John, of Wolverton and Ewhurst, Hampshire, who died 1384. That Sir Edward was the son and heir of Roger de Saint John, of Ewhurst, Hampshire, who died in 1314. Sir Edward [died 1384] and his wife, Joan, died without issue.
My file notes indicate that in 1364 Edward de Saint John and Joan his wife settled the manors of Almodington (in Earnley), Bercourt and Wildbridge (in Yapton), Linch, and Stopham, Sussex on themselves and the male heirs of their bodies, with contingent remainder to John, son of Richard, Earl of Arundel, and the heirs male of his body. Accordingly, after their respective deaths without male issue, these manors passed in 1386 to John's son and heir, John de Arundel the younger.
If correct, then Sir Edward de Saint John (son of Roger) can not be the same person as Edward son of John de Saint John who was living as stated above in 1375-6. I believe Edward son of John de Saint John, living 1375-6, is the person I have identified as the fourth Sir Edward de Saint John, of Kent, who died by 1398.
If correct, then I assume Edward son of John de Saint John, living 1375-6, was the son of John de Saint John, living 1328, who was a younger son of Sir John de Saint John, 1st Lord Saint John of Basing (died 1329), by his 1st wife, Isabel de Courtenay.
This then would be my tentative placement of your Elizabeth Saint John, wife of George Brewes and Thomas Slyfield, as daughter of Sir Edward de Saint John (died by 1398), son of John (living 1328), son of Sir John (died 1329).
How do you descend from Elizabeth Saint John?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-10 01:13:40 UTC
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Seems I am still writing entirely too much for the posts, so will also divide this:

Dear Douglas,

This confirms that Joan had no issue by Edward St. John of Stopham.
1379 Edward St. John, knight, on commission of oyer and terminer with Richard , earl of Arundel, Sussex[1] 1387 "Edward Seynt Johan" chivaler, Surrey and Sussex (vacated and surrendered and nothing thereof was done.”[2] 4 Richard II. 2500. Richard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey, v. Robert Tregoz, chivaler; 1½ acres 1 rood 6 perches of land in Goryng and the advowson of the church of the same vill, which Edward Seynt John, chivaler, and Joan his wife held for life of same Joan; the reversion to the Earl. (File 74. No. 20.)


[1] http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v1/body/Richard2vol1page0042.pdf

[2] ttp://www.mocavo.com/Calendar-of-the-Fine-Rolls-Preserved-in-the-Public-Record-Office-Volume-10/581924/218
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-10 01:14:16 UTC
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10 Rich 1387 II IPM Joan late the wife of Edward Seynt Johan (St. John), knight: Surrey, Sussex[1]
May 14. To Robert Loxle escheator in Sussex. Order to remove the king's Westminster, hand and meddle no further with the manors of Bargham and Hamme, a messuage, 64 acres of land, 15| acres of meadow with a fishery in Gretham, 41. of rent in Walderton and 20 acres of land in Codham called Wynteres, delivering up any issues thereof taken, saving to the king his wardship of the manor of Goryngge with the members, namely Haydone and Dadesham, the manor of Preston and 40 acres of arable land, 4 acres of meadow, a dovecot and 65. 2d. of rent in Perham ; as the king has learned by inquisition, taken by the escheator, that Joan who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight at her death held no lands in that county in chief nor of others in her demesne as of fee nor in service, but held all the premises for life by gift of Richard Wolvyn parson of Bargham, Robert Overton clerk and others to her and Henry Treygos sometime her husband and to the heirs of the said Henry, and that the manor of Goryngge with the members and the premises in Perham are held of the king by knight service as of the honour of Walyngforde, and the manor of Preston likewise as of the honour of Mold, and the residue of the premises of others than the king, and that Edward son of Robert son of the said Henry and Joan is their cousin and next heir, and of the age of nine years and
upwards.[2] This Edward St. John lord of Stopham.

[1] C 136/46/20
[2]CALENDAR OF THE CLOSE ROLLS, PRESERVED IN THE
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE. PREPARED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF THE DEPUTY KEEPER OF THE RECORDS.
RICHARD II. VOL. III. A.D. 1385—1389. ISSUED BY AUTHORITY OT HIS MAJESTY S PRINCIPAL SECRETARY OF STATE
LONDON: PUBLISHED BY HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE.
1921. https://archive.org/stream/calendarofclo03grea/calendarofclo03grea_djvu.txt
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-10 17:31:40 UTC
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Dear Douglas, You have identified the following and I just wanted to recap.


1. Sir Edward de Saint John, styled the uncle, died 1348, of Litchfield and Sherborne St. John, Hampshire, married Eve Dautry. This is confirmed by the many records and especially the rights in Petworth

2. Sir Edward de Saint John, died 1389, of Londesborough, Yorkshire, married Anastasia de Aton. Have you seen the source which places this Edward in the de Sai line? I have searched for the connection to the properties in Surrey and Sussex and find that the Aton/Aytons seem to be confined to the North of England.

3. Sir Edward de Saint John, styled the nephew, died 1384, of Wolverton, Hampshire, married Joan. There was no issue from this marriage of Joan kinswoman of Tregoz. He is styled "of Stopham"

4. Sir Edward Saint John, died by 1398, of Kent, married Alice. In 1405, Alice is found as the widow of Edward St. John, knight in a plea that states: she was the administrator of the goods and chattels of Roger Dalyngrygge who died intestate and that she owed Drew Barentyn of London who sues concerning a bond. Jury rules Alice was not the administrator. therefore Alice cannot be a transcription error of Anastasia and the Edward St. John who died circa 1398 was in fact, the husband of Alice. Further in the IPM of Hugh la Zouche in 1399 who held the manors of River and Nutborne, Sussex: "The following knight’s fees are held of the manor of River: Stopham, Linch, Barecourt and Yapton, 2 1/2 fees by the heirs of John Darundell, knight; West Marden, 1/2 fee by Thomas de Arundell; Lurgashall and Coates, 1 fee by Alice Seynt Johan; Rumboldswyke, 1 fee by John Loghteburgh." Coates and Lugarshall, possessed by the Alta Ripa's, are found in the IPM's of later de la Bisse's. The daughter of Thomas Slifield and Elizabeth St. John married William de la Bisse. I think that there is sufficient proof here that the Edward who married Alice was the son of Edward St, John and Eve Alta Ripa.

5. Edward de Saint John, living 1380, of Clothall, Rushden, and Wallington, Hertfordshire, married Elizabeth.

The St. John's of Surrey have a long association with the de la Bisse family and in 1290, Simon de la Bisse witnesses the grant of John de St. John in Godstone to Thomas Warbelton.

Thank you for your consideration of these findings,
Pat
Douglas Richardson
2015-08-10 23:13:13 UTC
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Dear Pat ~

The record you just posted makes it likely that Alice, wife of Edward de Saint John, Knt., of Kent (#4) was the widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq. I happened to research Roger Dallingridge about a month ago and I'm familiar with this man's history.

Available sources indicate that Roger Dallingridge, Esq., married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 Alice de Lisle, widow of Thomas de Seymour, Knt., and that Roger died about 1380. Roger's widow, Alice, was known to have been still alive in 1401. As such, there is ample time for Alice, widow of Roger, to have married (3rd) Edward de Saint John, Knt., who died in or before 1397. And also for her to still be living in 1405.

Here is the glitch, however. Alice de Lisle's 1st husband Thomas was born about 1304, and her 2nd husband Roger was born about 1311. As such, she can't possibly be the mother of your Elizabeth Saint John, who married George Brewes and Thomas Slyfield.

One possible solution (assuming Alice is the mother of your Elizabeth) is that Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., was a much younger last wife of Roger, and that she is a separate and distinct person from his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, who surely was born no later than about 1320.

Or perhaps there were two Roger Dallingridge's, one much older than the other. If so, both men were survived by a widow, Alice.

I've copied below my file account of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., died about 1380. For the time being, I've left it that his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, is the one who survived him and married Edward Saint John, Knt. I've included references to three Common Pleas lawsuits I've found which involve Alice, widow of Sir Edward Saint John, Knt.

Given that your Elizabeth Saint John was born say 1380, it would make sense that if her mother was Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, that Alice would have to be a much younger 3rd wife of Roger Dallingridge. But that's only if Sir Edward de Saint John and his wife, Alice, are your Elizabeth Saint John's parents.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + +

ALICE DE LISLE, married THOMAS DE SEYMOUR (or SAINT MAUR), Knt., of Rode, Somerset, Newton by the Sea, Northumberland, Worplesdon, Surrey, Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton) and Poulton, Wiltshire, etc., son and heir of Nicholas de Seymour (or Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour (or Saint Maur) [see ZOUCHE 11], by his 1st wife, Eve, daughter and heiress of Robert de Meysey. He was born about 1304 (probably aged 12 in 1316). They had no issue. In 1329 he settled the manor of Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton), Wiltshire, and the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire, together with three messuages and lands in Irthlingborough, Northamptonshire on himself and Laurence de Seymour, parson of the church of Higham Ferrers, and the heirs of Thomas. In 1338 he conveyed the reversion of property in Kingston (in Chesterton), Wiltshire to James de Wodestok. In 1345 he leased to William de Coundon the chief messuage of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland and all the demesne lands. In 1347 he conveyed the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire to Simon Simeon. In 1352 Walter de Pavely, Knt., and Joan his wife, conveyed the manor of Mighendon, Wiltshire to him for 100 marks. The same year he conveyed the manor and township of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland to John Stryvelyn, Knt. In June 1358 he was summoned to a Council to meet at Westminster in July, which he did not live to attend. He founded a chantry at Poulton, Wiltshire, which later developed into a small Gilbertine community. SIR THOMAS DE SEYMOUR died shortly before 13 July 1358. His widow, Alice, married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 (as his 2nd wife) ROGER [DE] DALLINGRIDGE (or DALYNGRUGGE, DALYNGRIGGE, DALINGREGGE, DALYNGREGGE), Esq., of Dallingridge, Sussex, Knight of the Shire for Sussex, 1360, 1362, 1363, and 1376-7, Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex, 1371-2, and, in right of his 1st wife, of Rottingdean and Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex, son and heir of John de Dalyngridge, of Dallingridge and Bolebrook, Sussex, Laceby, Lincolnshire, etc., by Joan, daughter and heiress of Walter de la Lynde. He was born about 1311. In 1340-1 Richard de Hothleghe the elder granted Roger son of John de Dalinggerugge a release of land, etc., in Hartfield, Sussex. In 1341 John atte Solere, senior sued Roger son and heir of John de Dalyngeregge in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 20 marks. In 1359 Margaret, widow of Thomas de Shepton, granted him a rent issuing out of Pedelungwerthe, Sussex. In 1362 he made a recognizance to Queen Philippe for 20 marks, to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in Sussex. In 1362 John de Worth [see MOWBRAY 8.ii], cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and Alice his wife. In 1374 he was granted free warren in the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex. In 1382 Sir John de Worth requested an assize of mort d'ancestor regarding a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas de Seymour, Knt. ROGER DALLINGRIDGE, Esq., died about 1380. His widow, Alice, married (3rd) EDWARD DE SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Kent. He died before 1398. In 1398 Alice widow of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Hovell (or Howell), acting as executors of the will of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., sued Thomas atte Rede and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39. In 1399 the same parties sued Thomas atte Rede and John Berklegh in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. In 1405 Drew Barentyne sued Alice, widow of Edward Saint John, Knt., administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge, Esq., regarding a debt of 11 marks 6s.; the said Alice replied that she was not the administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge and a jury decided in her favor.

References:

Throsby, Thoroton's Hist. of Nottinghamshire 1 (1790): 34-42. Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor 2 (1832): 370-372 (biog. of Sir Edward Dalyngrigge). Coll. Top. et Gen. 7 (1841): 157-158 (sub St. Maur). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 405-406 (sub St. Maur). Sussex Arch. Colls. 12 (1860): 221-231; 62 (1921): 64-92 (author states in error that Roger Dalyngruge [died c.1380] was the son of Thomas Dalyngruge). Duckett, "Evidences of Harewood Castle in Yorkshire," Papers Hist. & Antiq. (1880): 25-31. Bateson, Hist. of Northumberland 2 (1895): 84-89. List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 60. Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 22 (1899): 26-27. C.C.R. 1360-1364 (1909): 52, 397, 404, 439-440, 556-557. Cal. IPM 6 (1910): 16-17; 10 (1921): 345-347. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 390-395. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 125-126 (sub Lisle). Rpt. on the MSS of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm. 78) (1928): 245. VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 207-214. C.P. 8 (1932): 48 (chart), 73 footnote i (sub Lisle) (author states in error Alice de Lisle married (2nd) Robert Peverel); 11 (1949): 359, footnote i (sub Saint Maur). VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 257. VCH Wiltshire 5 (1949): 42-46. Chew, London Possessory Assizes (1965): 46-72 (no. 154). Elrington, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Wiltshire (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 100. O'Connor, Cal. Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993): 168-169. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/327, image 32f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no327/aCP40no327fronts/IMG_0032.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/548, image 116f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/R2/CP40no548/aCP40no548fronts/IMG_0116.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 29f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/aCP40no555fronts/IMG_0029.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 368d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/bCP40no555dorses/IMG_0368.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/579, rot. 220d (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/common-pleas/1399-1500/michaelmas-term-1405). National Archives, E 326/2889; E 326/8109; E 326/8110; E 326/8111; E 327/701 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/177/78, #334; CP 25/1/181/12, #100; CP 25/1/286/35, #42 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-11 02:05:28 UTC
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Dear Douglas,

Roger Dalyngridge in 1348 was serving Edward III with Michael Poynges. Dalyngridge with Nicholas Louveyne and Richard de Burstow witness a grant by John de Wysham in 1370. (de la Bisse and Burstowes intermarried).

Persons involved in the sale of Knelle Manor: The following three commissions were recorded: The first under Richard, earl of Arundel on Oct 20 1376, with Roger Dalyngridge, William Batesford, Edward St. John and others for the county of Sussex....Roger Dalyngrigge appears to still be alive in 1375.
C 131/20/19
Debtor: John de St John [clerk], of Sussex.
Creditor: Robert de Wotton, citizen and draper of London.
Amount: £200.
Before whom: William de Walworth, Mayor of the Staple of Westminster.
When taken: 21/03/1371
First term: 24/06/1371
Last term: 24/06/1371
Sent by: Chancery.
Endorsement: On behalf of Roger Dalyngrigge, Sheriff: the writ was sent to the bailiff of the liberty of Richard, Earl of Arundel, who has replied that John de St John, clerk, had no goods or chattels, lands or tenements in Sussex on 1.3.1371.

If Sir Edward Dallingrigge was born circa 1346, then Alice was surely born c. 1330 making her a bit old to have a child at 50, and even older to conduct business is 1405. Some sources state that Alice Radingden, wife of Roger Dallingrigge, died in 1361.
On the death of John de Radynden, probably before
1350, it appears that his son-in-law Roger Dalyngruge
succeeded to his estates. Of John's daughters, Maud
and Agatha, I find no trace later than the fines of 1318
and 1326, and no indication of their marriage. Alice
Dalyngruge certainly died before 1362, for in that year
Roger married another Alice, widow of Sir Thomas
St. Maur. It seems probable that Roger Dalyngruge died about
1380. In 4 Rich. II. (1380-1) his kinsman Sir Edward
Dalyngruge was possessed of Sheffield, Worth, Radyn-
den, and other manors and granted them to feoffees 64 ;
but by what legal process they had passed to him does
not appear.

Sir Thomas St. Maur seems to have died circa 1358, so Alice married St. Maur
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Pat ~
The record you just posted makes it likely that Alice, wife of Edward de Saint John, Knt., of Kent (#4) was the widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq. I happened to research Roger Dallingridge about a month ago and I'm familiar with this man's history.
Available sources indicate that Roger Dallingridge, Esq., married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 Alice de Lisle, widow of Thomas de Seymour, Knt., and that Roger died about 1380. Roger's widow, Alice, was known to have been still alive in 1401. As such, there is ample time for Alice, widow of Roger, to have married (3rd) Edward de Saint John, Knt., who died in or before 1397. And also for her to still be living in 1405.
Here is the glitch, however. Alice de Lisle's 1st husband Thomas was born about 1304, and her 2nd husband Roger was born about 1311. As such, she can't possibly be the mother of your Elizabeth Saint John, who married George Brewes and Thomas Slyfield.
One possible solution (assuming Alice is the mother of your Elizabeth) is that Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., was a much younger last wife of Roger, and that she is a separate and distinct person from his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, who surely was born no later than about 1320.
Or perhaps there were two Roger Dallingridge's, one much older than the other. If so, both men were survived by a widow, Alice.
I've copied below my file account of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., died about 1380. For the time being, I've left it that his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, is the one who survived him and married Edward Saint John, Knt. I've included references to three Common Pleas lawsuits I've found which involve Alice, widow of Sir Edward Saint John, Knt.
Given that your Elizabeth Saint John was born say 1380, it would make sense that if her mother was Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, that Alice would have to be a much younger 3rd wife of Roger Dallingridge. But that's only if Sir Edward de Saint John and his wife, Alice, are your Elizabeth Saint John's parents.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + +
ALICE DE LISLE, married THOMAS DE SEYMOUR (or SAINT MAUR), Knt., of Rode, Somerset, Newton by the Sea, Northumberland, Worplesdon, Surrey, Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton) and Poulton, Wiltshire, etc., son and heir of Nicholas de Seymour (or Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour (or Saint Maur) [see ZOUCHE 11], by his 1st wife, Eve, daughter and heiress of Robert de Meysey. He was born about 1304 (probably aged 12 in 1316). They had no issue. In 1329 he settled the manor of Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton), Wiltshire, and the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire, together with three messuages and lands in Irthlingborough, Northamptonshire on himself and Laurence de Seymour, parson of the church of Higham Ferrers, and the heirs of Thomas. In 1338 he conveyed the reversion of property in Kingston (in Chesterton), Wiltshire to James de Wodestok. In 1345 he leased to William de Coundon the chief messuage of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland and all the demesne lands. In 1347 he conveyed the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire to Simon Simeon. In 1352 Walter de Pavely, Knt., and Joan his wife, conveyed the manor of Mighendon, Wiltshire to him for 100 marks. The same year he conveyed the manor and township of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland to John Stryvelyn, Knt. In June 1358 he was summoned to a Council to meet at Westminster in July, which he did not live to attend. He founded a chantry at Poulton, Wiltshire, which later developed into a small Gilbertine community. SIR THOMAS DE SEYMOUR died shortly before 13 July 1358. His widow, Alice, married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 (as his 2nd wife) ROGER [DE] DALLINGRIDGE (or DALYNGRUGGE, DALYNGRIGGE, DALINGREGGE, DALYNGREGGE), Esq., of Dallingridge, Sussex, Knight of the Shire for Sussex, 1360, 1362, 1363, and 1376-7, Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex, 1371-2, and, in right of his 1st wife, of Rottingdean and Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex, son and heir of John de Dalyngridge, of Dallingridge and Bolebrook, Sussex, Laceby, Lincolnshire, etc., by Joan, daughter and heiress of Walter de la Lynde. He was born about 1311. In 1340-1 Richard de Hothleghe the elder granted Roger son of John de Dalinggerugge a release of land, etc., in Hartfield, Sussex. In 1341 John atte Solere, senior sued Roger son and heir of John de Dalyngeregge in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 20 marks. In 1359 Margaret, widow of Thomas de Shepton, granted him a rent issuing out of Pedelungwerthe, Sussex. In 1362 he made a recognizance to Queen Philippe for 20 marks, to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in Sussex. In 1362 John de Worth [see MOWBRAY 8.ii], cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and Alice his wife. In 1374 he was granted free warren in the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex. In 1382 Sir John de Worth requested an assize of mort d'ancestor regarding a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas de Seymour, Knt. ROGER DALLINGRIDGE, Esq., died about 1380. His widow, Alice, married (3rd) EDWARD DE SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Kent. He died before 1398. In 1398 Alice widow of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Hovell (or Howell), acting as executors of the will of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., sued Thomas atte Rede and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39. In 1399 the same parties sued Thomas atte Rede and John Berklegh in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. In 1405 Drew Barentyne sued Alice, widow of Edward Saint John, Knt., administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge, Esq., regarding a debt of 11 marks 6s.; the said Alice replied that she was not the administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge and a jury decided in her favor.
Throsby, Thoroton's Hist. of Nottinghamshire 1 (1790): 34-42. Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor 2 (1832): 370-372 (biog. of Sir Edward Dalyngrigge). Coll. Top. et Gen. 7 (1841): 157-158 (sub St. Maur). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 405-406 (sub St. Maur). Sussex Arch. Colls. 12 (1860): 221-231; 62 (1921): 64-92 (author states in error that Roger Dalyngruge [died c.1380] was the son of Thomas Dalyngruge). Duckett, "Evidences of Harewood Castle in Yorkshire," Papers Hist. & Antiq. (1880): 25-31. Bateson, Hist. of Northumberland 2 (1895): 84-89. List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 60. Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 22 (1899): 26-27. C.C.R. 1360-1364 (1909): 52, 397, 404, 439-440, 556-557. Cal. IPM 6 (1910): 16-17; 10 (1921): 345-347. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 390-395. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 125-126 (sub Lisle). Rpt. on the MSS of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm. 78) (1928): 245. VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 207-214. C.P. 8 (1932): 48 (chart), 73 footnote i (sub Lisle) (author states in error Alice de Lisle married (2nd) Robert Peverel); 11 (1949): 359, footnote i (sub Saint Maur). VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 257. VCH Wiltshire 5 (1949): 42-46. Chew, London Possessory Assizes (1965): 46-72 (no. 154). Elrington, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Wiltshire (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 100. O'Connor, Cal. Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993): 168-169. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/327, image 32f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no327/aCP40no327fronts/IMG_0032.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/548, image 116f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/R2/CP40no548/aCP40no548fronts/IMG_0116.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 29f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/aCP40no555fronts/IMG_0029.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 368d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/bCP40no555dorses/IMG_0368.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/579, rot. 220d (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/common-pleas/1399-1500/michaelmas-term-1405). National Archives, E 326/2889; E 326/8109; E 326/8110; E 326/8111; E 327/701 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/177/78, #334; CP 25/1/181/12, #100; CP 25/1/286/35, #42 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].
-------------------------------
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-12 12:14:24 UTC
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Dear Douglas,

Again, I apologize for the rather muddled earlier post. After reviewing some of the material I have,

I am convinced that Edward St. John who married Alice is the son or grandson of Edward St. John by Eve Dawtrey substantiated by the fact that Alice, the widow of Edward St. John was holding Dawtrey properties of Hugh la Zouche in 1399. In analyzing the Dalingrigge material, I also believe that Alice may have been the daughter of Roger and Alice Radingden, not the Alice who was the wife of Thomas St. Maur . I think a deduction is drawn from the 1405 crown plea that Alice may have been the wife, but was rather the daughter, placing her birth rather more reasonably to be the mother of Elizabeth. This Alice, I believe, died in 1422. She was of Hardham, near Pulborogh, Sussex which was an Augustinian Priory (ancient demesne of William Dawtrey) to which a convent was been attached, indicative of Alice being a nun in her age.

Again: Edward St. John (1259-) m. Eve Alta Ripa (de Hauterive, Dawtrey), (d. 1354) grand daughter of Sir William . During Reign of Edward I, Dawtrey inheritance passed to Eve (1272-1302) SxAC, Vol. 29; 1315 St. John purchased Barvalington (Petteworth), Sussex and was granted free warren in 1334, Edward de Sancto Johanne and Eve his wife v. William de Sancto Johanne; manors of Berlauynton, Lutegarshale, Verdelay, 5 virgates in Putteworth (Petworth), Berlauinton, Wollauinton, Eggedene, Northmerdone, Eseburne, Totinton, Rustinton, Climpinge, Arundel, Warnecampe, Bodinge and Wassington; to Edward and Eve and heirs of Eve. (File 48. No. 5.) Sussex Fines: 11-15 Edward II. Tolinton is Tillington on the edge of Petworth Park. Loutegarsale is Ludgershall, North of Petworth.

In 1324 Henry de Neuyle (Neville?) sued Edward de St. John and Alan de ____fold; 2 messuages, 3 virgates, 8 1/2 acres of meadow, 20 acres of wood, 24s rent in Tolinton, Petteworth, ___eketon and Loutegarsale; to Henry for life, with the remainder to John son of Roger de Sheluestrod (Shovelstrode)and heirs of his body, with contingent remainder to Eve late wife of Roger de Sheluestrod and her heirs.The manor of Barlavington and lands in North Marden were among the estates settled on Edward and Eve and her heirs in 1318, (fn. 16) and at her death in 1354 they passed to her son John St. John. Eve Alta Ripa married Shevelstrode, William Paynel and Edward St. John by whom a son, Edward St. John.

1403 To the sheriff of Kent. Writ of supersedeas in favour of Thomas atte Reede and John Berkleghe, and order by mainprise of Thomas atte Ride and John Berkley of Sussex, Alexander Arlye, Stephen Frensshe, William Piers and Stephen Purser of Kent to set them free, if taken at suit of Alice who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Bromflete and William Wateresfelde chaplain, executors of the said Edward, for render of 20l.



continued.....

Pat
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Pat ~
The record you just posted makes it likely that Alice, wife of Edward de Saint John, Knt., of Kent (#4) was the widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq. I happened to research Roger Dallingridge about a month ago and I'm familiar with this man's history.
Available sources indicate that Roger Dallingridge, Esq., married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 Alice de Lisle, widow of Thomas de Seymour, Knt., and that Roger died about 1380. Roger's widow, Alice, was known to have been still alive in 1401. As such, there is ample time for Alice, widow of Roger, to have married (3rd) Edward de Saint John, Knt., who died in or before 1397. And also for her to still be living in 1405.
Here is the glitch, however. Alice de Lisle's 1st husband Thomas was born about 1304, and her 2nd husband Roger was born about 1311. As such, she can't possibly be the mother of your Elizabeth Saint John, who married George Brewes and Thomas Slyfield.
One possible solution (assuming Alice is the mother of your Elizabeth) is that Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., was a much younger last wife of Roger, and that she is a separate and distinct person from his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, who surely was born no later than about 1320.
Or perhaps there were two Roger Dallingridge's, one much older than the other. If so, both men were survived by a widow, Alice.
I've copied below my file account of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., died about 1380. For the time being, I've left it that his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, is the one who survived him and married Edward Saint John, Knt. I've included references to three Common Pleas lawsuits I've found which involve Alice, widow of Sir Edward Saint John, Knt.
Given that your Elizabeth Saint John was born say 1380, it would make sense that if her mother was Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, that Alice would have to be a much younger 3rd wife of Roger Dallingridge. But that's only if Sir Edward de Saint John and his wife, Alice, are your Elizabeth Saint John's parents.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + +
ALICE DE LISLE, married THOMAS DE SEYMOUR (or SAINT MAUR), Knt., of Rode, Somerset, Newton by the Sea, Northumberland, Worplesdon, Surrey, Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton) and Poulton, Wiltshire, etc., son and heir of Nicholas de Seymour (or Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour (or Saint Maur) [see ZOUCHE 11], by his 1st wife, Eve, daughter and heiress of Robert de Meysey. He was born about 1304 (probably aged 12 in 1316). They had no issue. In 1329 he settled the manor of Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton), Wiltshire, and the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire, together with three messuages and lands in Irthlingborough, Northamptonshire on himself and Laurence de Seymour, parson of the church of Higham Ferrers, and the heirs of Thomas. In 1338 he conveyed the reversion of property in Kingston (in Chesterton), Wiltshire to James de Wodestok. In 1345 he leased to William de Coundon the chief messuage of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland and all the demesne lands. In 1347 he conveyed the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire to Simon Simeon. In 1352 Walter de Pavely, Knt., and Joan his wife, conveyed the manor of Mighendon, Wiltshire to him for 100 marks. The same year he conveyed the manor and township of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland to John Stryvelyn, Knt. In June 1358 he was summoned to a Council to meet at Westminster in July, which he did not live to attend. He founded a chantry at Poulton, Wiltshire, which later developed into a small Gilbertine community. SIR THOMAS DE SEYMOUR died shortly before 13 July 1358. His widow, Alice, married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 (as his 2nd wife) ROGER [DE] DALLINGRIDGE (or DALYNGRUGGE, DALYNGRIGGE, DALINGREGGE, DALYNGREGGE), Esq., of Dallingridge, Sussex, Knight of the Shire for Sussex, 1360, 1362, 1363, and 1376-7, Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex, 1371-2, and, in right of his 1st wife, of Rottingdean and Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex, son and heir of John de Dalyngridge, of Dallingridge and Bolebrook, Sussex, Laceby, Lincolnshire, etc., by Joan, daughter and heiress of Walter de la Lynde. He was born about 1311. In 1340-1 Richard de Hothleghe the elder granted Roger son of John de Dalinggerugge a release of land, etc., in Hartfield, Sussex. In 1341 John atte Solere, senior sued Roger son and heir of John de Dalyngeregge in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 20 marks. In 1359 Margaret, widow of Thomas de Shepton, granted him a rent issuing out of Pedelungwerthe, Sussex. In 1362 he made a recognizance to Queen Philippe for 20 marks, to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in Sussex. In 1362 John de Worth [see MOWBRAY 8.ii], cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and Alice his wife. In 1374 he was granted free warren in the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex. In 1382 Sir John de Worth requested an assize of mort d'ancestor regarding a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas de Seymour, Knt. ROGER DALLINGRIDGE, Esq., died about 1380. His widow, Alice, married (3rd) EDWARD DE SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Kent. He died before 1398. In 1398 Alice widow of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Hovell (or Howell), acting as executors of the will of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., sued Thomas atte Rede and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39. In 1399 the same parties sued Thomas atte Rede and John Berklegh in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. In 1405 Drew Barentyne sued Alice, widow of Edward Saint John, Knt., administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge, Esq., regarding a debt of 11 marks 6s.; the said Alice replied that she was not the administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge and a jury decided in her favor.
Throsby, Thoroton's Hist. of Nottinghamshire 1 (1790): 34-42. Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor 2 (1832): 370-372 (biog. of Sir Edward Dalyngrigge). Coll. Top. et Gen. 7 (1841): 157-158 (sub St. Maur). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 405-406 (sub St. Maur). Sussex Arch. Colls. 12 (1860): 221-231; 62 (1921): 64-92 (author states in error that Roger Dalyngruge [died c.1380] was the son of Thomas Dalyngruge). Duckett, "Evidences of Harewood Castle in Yorkshire," Papers Hist. & Antiq. (1880): 25-31. Bateson, Hist. of Northumberland 2 (1895): 84-89. List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 60. Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 22 (1899): 26-27. C.C.R. 1360-1364 (1909): 52, 397, 404, 439-440, 556-557. Cal. IPM 6 (1910): 16-17; 10 (1921): 345-347. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 390-395. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 125-126 (sub Lisle). Rpt. on the MSS of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm. 78) (1928): 245. VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 207-214. C.P. 8 (1932): 48 (chart), 73 footnote i (sub Lisle) (author states in error Alice de Lisle married (2nd) Robert Peverel); 11 (1949): 359, footnote i (sub Saint Maur). VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 257. VCH Wiltshire 5 (1949): 42-46. Chew, London Possessory Assizes (1965): 46-72 (no. 154). Elrington, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Wiltshire (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 100. O'Connor, Cal. Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993): 168-169. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/327, image 32f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no327/aCP40no327fronts/IMG_0032.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/548, image 116f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/R2/CP40no548/aCP40no548fronts/IMG_0116.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 29f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/aCP40no555fronts/IMG_0029.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 368d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/bCP40no555dorses/IMG_0368.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/579, rot. 220d (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/common-pleas/1399-1500/michaelmas-term-1405). National Archives, E 326/2889; E 326/8109; E 326/8110; E 326/8111; E 327/701 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/177/78, #334; CP 25/1/181/12, #100; CP 25/1/286/35, #42 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].
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John Watson
2015-08-12 22:47:41 UTC
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Post by Patricia A. Junkin via
Dear Douglas,
Again, I apologize for the rather muddled earlier post. After reviewing some of the material I have,
I am convinced that Edward St. John who married Alice is the son or grandson of Edward St. John by Eve Dawtrey substantiated by the fact that Alice, the widow of Edward St. John was holding Dawtrey properties of Hugh la Zouche in 1399. In analyzing the Dalingrigge material, I also believe that Alice may have been the daughter of Roger and Alice Radingden, not the Alice who was the wife of Thomas St. Maur . I think a deduction is drawn from the 1405 crown plea that Alice may have been the wife, but was rather the daughter, placing her birth rather more reasonably to be the mother of Elizabeth. This Alice, I believe, died in 1422. She was of Hardham, near Pulborogh, Sussex which was an Augustinian Priory (ancient demesne of William Dawtrey) to which a convent was been attached, indicative of Alice being a nun in her age.
Again: Edward St. John (1259-) m. Eve Alta Ripa (de Hauterive, Dawtrey), (d. 1354) grand daughter of Sir William . During Reign of Edward I, Dawtrey inheritance passed to Eve (1272-1302) SxAC, Vol. 29; 1315 St. John purchased Barvalington (Petteworth), Sussex and was granted free warren in 1334, Edward de Sancto Johanne and Eve his wife v. William de Sancto Johanne; manors of Berlauynton, Lutegarshale, Verdelay, 5 virgates in Putteworth (Petworth), Berlauinton, Wollauinton, Eggedene, Northmerdone, Eseburne, Totinton, Rustinton, Climpinge, Arundel, Warnecampe, Bodinge and Wassington; to Edward and Eve and heirs of Eve. (File 48. No. 5.) Sussex Fines: 11-15 Edward II. Tolinton is Tillington on the edge of Petworth Park. Loutegarsale is Ludgershall, North of Petworth.
In 1324 Henry de Neuyle (Neville?) sued Edward de St. John and Alan de ____fold; 2 messuages, 3 virgates, 8 1/2 acres of meadow, 20 acres of wood, 24s rent in Tolinton, Petteworth, ___eketon and Loutegarsale; to Henry for life, with the remainder to John son of Roger de Sheluestrod (Shovelstrode)and heirs of his body, with contingent remainder to Eve late wife of Roger de Sheluestrod and her heirs.The manor of Barlavington and lands in North Marden were among the estates settled on Edward and Eve and her heirs in 1318, (fn. 16) and at her death in 1354 they passed to her son John St. John. Eve Alta Ripa married Shevelstrode, William Paynel and Edward St. John by whom a son, Edward St. John.
1403 To the sheriff of Kent. Writ of supersedeas in favour of Thomas atte Reede and John Berkleghe, and order by mainprise of Thomas atte Ride and John Berkley of Sussex, Alexander Arlye, Stephen Frensshe, William Piers and Stephen Purser of Kent to set them free, if taken at suit of Alice who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Bromflete and William Wateresfelde chaplain, executors of the said Edward, for render of 20l.
continued.....
Pat
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Pat ~
The record you just posted makes it likely that Alice, wife of Edward de Saint John, Knt., of Kent (#4) was the widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq. I happened to research Roger Dallingridge about a month ago and I'm familiar with this man's history.
Available sources indicate that Roger Dallingridge, Esq., married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 Alice de Lisle, widow of Thomas de Seymour, Knt., and that Roger died about 1380. Roger's widow, Alice, was known to have been still alive in 1401. As such, there is ample time for Alice, widow of Roger, to have married (3rd) Edward de Saint John, Knt., who died in or before 1397. And also for her to still be living in 1405.
Here is the glitch, however. Alice de Lisle's 1st husband Thomas was born about 1304, and her 2nd husband Roger was born about 1311. As such, she can't possibly be the mother of your Elizabeth Saint John, who married George Brewes and Thomas Slyfield.
One possible solution (assuming Alice is the mother of your Elizabeth) is that Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., was a much younger last wife of Roger, and that she is a separate and distinct person from his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, who surely was born no later than about 1320.
Or perhaps there were two Roger Dallingridge's, one much older than the other. If so, both men were survived by a widow, Alice.
I've copied below my file account of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., died about 1380. For the time being, I've left it that his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, is the one who survived him and married Edward Saint John, Knt. I've included references to three Common Pleas lawsuits I've found which involve Alice, widow of Sir Edward Saint John, Knt.
Given that your Elizabeth Saint John was born say 1380, it would make sense that if her mother was Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, that Alice would have to be a much younger 3rd wife of Roger Dallingridge. But that's only if Sir Edward de Saint John and his wife, Alice, are your Elizabeth Saint John's parents.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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ALICE DE LISLE, married THOMAS DE SEYMOUR (or SAINT MAUR), Knt., of Rode, Somerset, Newton by the Sea, Northumberland, Worplesdon, Surrey, Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton) and Poulton, Wiltshire, etc., son and heir of Nicholas de Seymour (or Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour (or Saint Maur) [see ZOUCHE 11], by his 1st wife, Eve, daughter and heiress of Robert de Meysey. He was born about 1304 (probably aged 12 in 1316). They had no issue. In 1329 he settled the manor of Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton), Wiltshire, and the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire, together with three messuages and lands in Irthlingborough, Northamptonshire on himself and Laurence de Seymour, parson of the church of Higham Ferrers, and the heirs of Thomas. In 1338 he conveyed the reversion of property in Kingston (in Chesterton), Wiltshire to James de Wodestok. In 1345 he leased to William de Coundon the chief messuage of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland and all the demesne lands. In 1347 he conveyed the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire to Simon Simeon. In 1352 Walter de Pavely, Knt., and Joan his wife, conveyed the manor of Mighendon, Wiltshire to him for 100 marks. The same year he conveyed the manor and township of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland to John Stryvelyn, Knt. In June 1358 he was summoned to a Council to meet at Westminster in July, which he did not live to attend. He founded a chantry at Poulton, Wiltshire, which later developed into a small Gilbertine community. SIR THOMAS DE SEYMOUR died shortly before 13 July 1358. His widow, Alice, married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 (as his 2nd wife) ROGER [DE] DALLINGRIDGE (or DALYNGRUGGE, DALYNGRIGGE, DALINGREGGE, DALYNGREGGE), Esq., of Dallingridge, Sussex, Knight of the Shire for Sussex, 1360, 1362, 1363, and 1376-7, Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex, 1371-2, and, in right of his 1st wife, of Rottingdean and Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex, son and heir of John de Dalyngridge, of Dallingridge and Bolebrook, Sussex, Laceby, Lincolnshire, etc., by Joan, daughter and heiress of Walter de la Lynde. He was born about 1311. In 1340-1 Richard de Hothleghe the elder granted Roger son of John de Dalinggerugge a release of land, etc., in Hartfield, Sussex. In 1341 John atte Solere, senior sued Roger son and heir of John de Dalyngeregge in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 20 marks. In 1359 Margaret, widow of Thomas de Shepton, granted him a rent issuing out of Pedelungwerthe, Sussex. In 1362 he made a recognizance to Queen Philippe for 20 marks, to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in Sussex. In 1362 John de Worth [see MOWBRAY 8.ii], cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and Alice his wife. In 1374 he was granted free warren in the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex. In 1382 Sir John de Worth requested an assize of mort d'ancestor regarding a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas de Seymour, Knt. ROGER DALLINGRIDGE, Esq., died about 1380. His widow, Alice, married (3rd) EDWARD DE SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Kent. He died before 1398. In 1398 Alice widow of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Hovell (or Howell), acting as executors of the will of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., sued Thomas atte Rede and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39. In 1399 the same parties sued Thomas atte Rede and John Berklegh in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. In 1405 Drew Barentyne sued Alice, widow of Edward Saint John, Knt., administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge, Esq., regarding a debt of 11 marks 6s.; the said Alice replied that she was not the administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge and a jury decided in her favor.
Throsby, Thoroton's Hist. of Nottinghamshire 1 (1790): 34-42. Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor 2 (1832): 370-372 (biog. of Sir Edward Dalyngrigge). Coll. Top. et Gen. 7 (1841): 157-158 (sub St. Maur). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 405-406 (sub St. Maur). Sussex Arch. Colls. 12 (1860): 221-231; 62 (1921): 64-92 (author states in error that Roger Dalyngruge [died c.1380] was the son of Thomas Dalyngruge). Duckett, "Evidences of Harewood Castle in Yorkshire," Papers Hist. & Antiq. (1880): 25-31. Bateson, Hist. of Northumberland 2 (1895): 84-89. List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 60. Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 22 (1899): 26-27. C.C.R. 1360-1364 (1909): 52, 397, 404, 439-440, 556-557. Cal. IPM 6 (1910): 16-17; 10 (1921): 345-347. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 390-395. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 125-126 (sub Lisle). Rpt. on the MSS of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm. 78) (1928): 245. VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 207-214. C.P. 8 (1932): 48 (chart), 73 footnote i (sub Lisle) (author states in error Alice de Lisle married (2nd) Robert Peverel); 11 (1949): 359, footnote i (sub Saint Maur). VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 257. VCH Wiltshire 5 (1949): 42-46. Chew, London Possessory Assizes (1965): 46-72 (no. 154). Elrington, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Wiltshire (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 100. O'Connor, Cal. Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993): 168-169. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/327, image 32f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no327/aCP40no327fronts/IMG_0032.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/548, image 116f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/R2/CP40no548/aCP40no548fronts/IMG_0116.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 29f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/aCP40no555fronts/IMG_0029.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 368d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/bCP40no555dorses/IMG_0368.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/579, rot. 220d (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/common-pleas/1399-1500/michaelmas-term-1405). National Archives, E 326/2889; E 326/8109; E 326/8110; E 326/8111; E 327/701 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/177/78, #334; CP 25/1/181/12, #100; CP 25/1/286/35, #42 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].
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Dear Pat,

This might help:
Eve Dawtrey, daughter of John Dawtrey and Elizabeth de la Stane, born about 1292, died 16 August 1354. She married firstly about 1308, Roger de Shelvestrode, who died before 1314, by who she had a son, John de Shelvestrode who died before 1360. John's daughter Joan married John de Aske of Ousthorpe, Yorkshire. Eve married secondly about 1314, William Paynel who died 1 April 1317. Eve married thirdly, before 26 May 1318, Edward St. John, who died 30 November 1347, by who she had two sons, Edward and John. Edward St. John born about 1320, died 7 March 1389, married Anastasia de Aton, daughter of William de Aton and Isabel de Percy, by whom he had an only daughter and heiress Margaret who married Sir Thomas Brounflete who died before 31 December 1431.

Regards,

John
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-13 16:27:45 UTC
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Dear John,

The more information I find, the more entangled things become. One document stated that my Edward was of Godstone of Walkmestede, Surrey but that was held by those in descent of Roger St. John who married an heiress there according to the Surrey Eyre. Several of the pedigrees give Anastasia as the wife of Thomas Bromflette; others that Edward St. John dies without issue.

Eve Dawtrey, daughter of John Dawtrey and Elizabeth de la Stane, born about 1292, died 16 August 1354, married
1. ca. 1308, Roger de Shelvestrode, who died before 1314,
: son, John de Shelvestrode who died before 1360.
2. ca. 1314, William Paynel who died 1 April 1317.
3. before 1320 (see COWDRAY/4934/f 29), Edward St. John, probably born 1290 or before, who died 30 November 1347,
3a. Edward St. John born after 1320, died 7 March 1389, married Anastasia de Aton, daughter of William de Aton and Isabel de Percy, by whom he had an only daughter and heiress Margaret who married Sir Thomas Brounflete who died before 31 December 1431.
3b. John St. John (Eve left her properties to John, wo must have been the eldest)

Is it possible that this John St. John had a son, Edward who married an Alice? If so, we might account for the Dawtrey properties in the hands of Alice?

Pat
Post by John Watson
Post by Patricia A. Junkin via
Dear Douglas,
Again, I apologize for the rather muddled earlier post. After reviewing some of the material I have,
I am convinced that Edward St. John who married Alice is the son or grandson of Edward St. John by Eve Dawtrey substantiated by the fact that Alice, the widow of Edward St. John was holding Dawtrey properties of Hugh la Zouche in 1399. In analyzing the Dalingrigge material, I also believe that Alice may have been the daughter of Roger and Alice Radingden, not the Alice who was the wife of Thomas St. Maur . I think a deduction is drawn from the 1405 crown plea that Alice may have been the wife, but was rather the daughter, placing her birth rather more reasonably to be the mother of Elizabeth. This Alice, I believe, died in 1422. She was of Hardham, near Pulborogh, Sussex which was an Augustinian Priory (ancient demesne of William Dawtrey) to which a convent was been attached, indicative of Alice being a nun in her age.
Again: Edward St. John (1259-) m. Eve Alta Ripa (de Hauterive, Dawtrey), (d. 1354) grand daughter of Sir William . During Reign of Edward I, Dawtrey inheritance passed to Eve (1272-1302) SxAC, Vol. 29; 1315 St. John purchased Barvalington (Petteworth), Sussex and was granted free warren in 1334, Edward de Sancto Johanne and Eve his wife v. William de Sancto Johanne; manors of Berlauynton, Lutegarshale, Verdelay, 5 virgates in Putteworth (Petworth), Berlauinton, Wollauinton, Eggedene, Northmerdone, Eseburne, Totinton, Rustinton, Climpinge, Arundel, Warnecampe, Bodinge and Wassington; to Edward and Eve and heirs of Eve. (File 48. No. 5.) Sussex Fines: 11-15 Edward II. Tolinton is Tillington on the edge of Petworth Park. Loutegarsale is Ludgershall, North of Petworth.
In 1324 Henry de Neuyle (Neville?) sued Edward de St. John and Alan de ____fold; 2 messuages, 3 virgates, 8 1/2 acres of meadow, 20 acres of wood, 24s rent in Tolinton, Petteworth, ___eketon and Loutegarsale; to Henry for life, with the remainder to John son of Roger de Sheluestrod (Shovelstrode)and heirs of his body, with contingent remainder to Eve late wife of Roger de Sheluestrod and her heirs.The manor of Barlavington and lands in North Marden were among the estates settled on Edward and Eve and her heirs in 1318, (fn. 16) and at her death in 1354 they passed to her son John St. John. Eve Alta Ripa married Shevelstrode, William Paynel and Edward St. John by whom a son, Edward St. John.
1403 To the sheriff of Kent. Writ of supersedeas in favour of Thomas atte Reede and John Berkleghe, and order by mainprise of Thomas atte Ride and John Berkley of Sussex, Alexander Arlye, Stephen Frensshe, William Piers and Stephen Purser of Kent to set them free, if taken at suit of Alice who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Bromflete and William Wateresfelde chaplain, executors of the said Edward, for render of 20l.
continued.....
Pat
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Pat ~
The record you just posted makes it likely that Alice, wife of Edward de Saint John, Knt., of Kent (#4) was the widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq. I happened to research Roger Dallingridge about a month ago and I'm familiar with this man's history.
Available sources indicate that Roger Dallingridge, Esq., married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 Alice de Lisle, widow of Thomas de Seymour, Knt., and that Roger died about 1380. Roger's widow, Alice, was known to have been still alive in 1401. As such, there is ample time for Alice, widow of Roger, to have married (3rd) Edward de Saint John, Knt., who died in or before 1397. And also for her to still be living in 1405.
Here is the glitch, however. Alice de Lisle's 1st husband Thomas was born about 1304, and her 2nd husband Roger was born about 1311. As such, she can't possibly be the mother of your Elizabeth Saint John, who married George Brewes and Thomas Slyfield.
One possible solution (assuming Alice is the mother of your Elizabeth) is that Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., was a much younger last wife of Roger, and that she is a separate and distinct person from his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, who surely was born no later than about 1320.
Or perhaps there were two Roger Dallingridge's, one much older than the other. If so, both men were survived by a widow, Alice.
I've copied below my file account of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., died about 1380. For the time being, I've left it that his known 2nd wife, Alice de Lisle, is the one who survived him and married Edward Saint John, Knt. I've included references to three Common Pleas lawsuits I've found which involve Alice, widow of Sir Edward Saint John, Knt.
Given that your Elizabeth Saint John was born say 1380, it would make sense that if her mother was Alice, widow of Roger Dallingridge, that Alice would have to be a much younger 3rd wife of Roger Dallingridge. But that's only if Sir Edward de Saint John and his wife, Alice, are your Elizabeth Saint John's parents.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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ALICE DE LISLE, married THOMAS DE SEYMOUR (or SAINT MAUR), Knt., of Rode, Somerset, Newton by the Sea, Northumberland, Worplesdon, Surrey, Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton) and Poulton, Wiltshire, etc., son and heir of Nicholas de Seymour (or Saint Maur), Knt., 1st Lord Seymour (or Saint Maur) [see ZOUCHE 11], by his 1st wife, Eve, daughter and heiress of Robert de Meysey. He was born about 1304 (probably aged 12 in 1316). They had no issue. In 1329 he settled the manor of Eaton Maisey (in Castle Eaton), Wiltshire, and the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire, together with three messuages and lands in Irthlingborough, Northamptonshire on himself and Laurence de Seymour, parson of the church of Higham Ferrers, and the heirs of Thomas. In 1338 he conveyed the reversion of property in Kingston (in Chesterton), Wiltshire to James de Wodestok. In 1345 he leased to William de Coundon the chief messuage of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland and all the demesne lands. In 1347 he conveyed the fourth part of the manor of Finedon, Northamptonshire to Simon Simeon. In 1352 Walter de Pavely, Knt., and Joan his wife, conveyed the manor of Mighendon, Wiltshire to him for 100 marks. The same year he conveyed the manor and township of Newton by the Sea, Northumberland to John Stryvelyn, Knt. In June 1358 he was summoned to a Council to meet at Westminster in July, which he did not live to attend. He founded a chantry at Poulton, Wiltshire, which later developed into a small Gilbertine community. SIR THOMAS DE SEYMOUR died shortly before 13 July 1358. His widow, Alice, married (2nd) before 23 May 1362 (as his 2nd wife) ROGER [DE] DALLINGRIDGE (or DALYNGRUGGE, DALYNGRIGGE, DALINGREGGE, DALYNGREGGE), Esq., of Dallingridge, Sussex, Knight of the Shire for Sussex, 1360, 1362, 1363, and 1376-7, Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex, 1371-2, and, in right of his 1st wife, of Rottingdean and Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex, son and heir of John de Dalyngridge, of Dallingridge and Bolebrook, Sussex, Laceby, Lincolnshire, etc., by Joan, daughter and heiress of Walter de la Lynde. He was born about 1311. In 1340-1 Richard de Hothleghe the elder granted Roger son of John de Dalinggerugge a release of land, etc., in Hartfield, Sussex. In 1341 John atte Solere, senior sued Roger son and heir of John de Dalyngeregge in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 20 marks. In 1359 Margaret, widow of Thomas de Shepton, granted him a rent issuing out of Pedelungwerthe, Sussex. In 1362 he made a recognizance to Queen Philippe for 20 marks, to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and chattels in Sussex. In 1362 John de Worth [see MOWBRAY 8.ii], cousin and heir of Thomas de Seymour, conveyed two parts of the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex to Roger Dalyngruge and Alice his wife. In 1374 he was granted free warren in the manor of Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex. In 1382 Sir John de Worth requested an assize of mort d'ancestor regarding a messuage in St. Peter Bradestrete, London against Richard de Seymour, Knt., John claiming the property as nephew and heir of Thomas de Seymour, Knt. ROGER DALLINGRIDGE, Esq., died about 1380. His widow, Alice, married (3rd) EDWARD DE SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Kent. He died before 1398. In 1398 Alice widow of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Hovell (or Howell), acting as executors of the will of Edward Seynt Johan, Knt., sued Thomas atte Rede and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39. In 1399 the same parties sued Thomas atte Rede and John Berklegh in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. In 1405 Drew Barentyne sued Alice, widow of Edward Saint John, Knt., administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge, Esq., regarding a debt of 11 marks 6s.; the said Alice replied that she was not the administrator of Roger Dalyngrygge and a jury decided in her favor.
Throsby, Thoroton's Hist. of Nottinghamshire 1 (1790): 34-42. Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor 2 (1832): 370-372 (biog. of Sir Edward Dalyngrigge). Coll. Top. et Gen. 7 (1841): 157-158 (sub St. Maur). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 405-406 (sub St. Maur). Sussex Arch. Colls. 12 (1860): 221-231; 62 (1921): 64-92 (author states in error that Roger Dalyngruge [died c.1380] was the son of Thomas Dalyngruge). Duckett, "Evidences of Harewood Castle in Yorkshire," Papers Hist. & Antiq. (1880): 25-31. Bateson, Hist. of Northumberland 2 (1895): 84-89. List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 60. Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 22 (1899): 26-27. C.C.R. 1360-1364 (1909): 52, 397, 404, 439-440, 556-557. Cal. IPM 6 (1910): 16-17; 10 (1921): 345-347. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 390-395. Clay, Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 125-126 (sub Lisle). Rpt. on the MSS of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm. 78) (1928): 245. VCH Northampton 3 (1930): 207-214. C.P. 8 (1932): 48 (chart), 73 footnote i (sub Lisle) (author states in error Alice de Lisle married (2nd) Robert Peverel); 11 (1949): 359, footnote i (sub Saint Maur). VCH Sussex 7 (1940): 257. VCH Wiltshire 5 (1949): 42-46. Chew, London Possessory Assizes (1965): 46-72 (no. 154). Elrington, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Wiltshire (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 29) (1974): 100. O'Connor, Cal. Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993): 168-169. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/327, image 32f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no327/aCP40no327fronts/IMG_0032.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/548, image 116f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/R2/CP40no548/aCP40no548fronts/IMG_0116.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 29f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/aCP40no555fronts/IMG_0029.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 368d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/bCP40no555dorses/IMG_0368.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/579, rot. 220d (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/common-pleas/1399-1500/michaelmas-term-1405). National Archives, E 326/2889; E 326/8109; E 326/8110; E 326/8111; E 327/701 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/177/78, #334; CP 25/1/181/12, #100; CP 25/1/286/35, #42 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].
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Dear Pat,
Eve Dawtrey, daughter of John Dawtrey and Elizabeth de la Stane, born about 1292, died 16 August 1354. She married firstly about 1308, Roger de Shelvestrode, who died before 1314, by who she had a son, John de Shelvestrode who died before 1360. John's daughter Joan married John de Aske of Ousthorpe, Yorkshire. Eve married secondly about 1314, William Paynel who died 1 April 1317. Eve married thirdly, before 26 May 1318, Edward St. John, who died 30 November 1347, by who she had two sons, Edward and John. Edward St. John born about 1320, died 7 March 1389, married Anastasia de Aton, daughter of William de Aton and Isabel de Percy, by whom he had an only daughter and heiress Margaret who married Sir Thomas Brounflete who died before 31 December 1431.
Regards,
John
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Douglas Richardson
2015-08-13 19:29:08 UTC
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Dear Pat ~

In answer to your question as to the parentage of your Elizabeth Saint John (born say 1380-5), we have to consider no less than five different candidates named Edward de Saint John, all of whom were knights.

Here is the list again of those five men, with some slight alterations:

1. Sir Edward de Saint John, styled the uncle, died 1348, of Litchfield and Sherborne St. John, Hampshire, married Eve Dautry (or de Hauterive).
2. Sir Edward de Saint John, died 1389, of Londesborough, Yorkshire, married Anastasia de Aton. They had one daughter, Margaret. He was the son of Edward #1.
3. Sir Edward de Saint John, styled the nephew, born about 1308, died 1384, of Stopham, Sussex, Ewhurst and Wolverton, Hampshire, married Joan de Morley, widow of Henry de Tregoz, 3rd Lord Tregoz. He left no issue. He was the nephew of Edward #1.
4. Sir Edward Saint John, died by 1398, of Kent, married Alice.
5. Sir Edward de Saint John, living 1380, of Clothall, Rushden, and Wallington, Hertfordshire, married Elizabeth.

Reviewing the above, for various reasons, we can immediately rule out #1, 2, and 3 as the father of your Elizabeth Saint John. That leaves us #4 and #5.

The most likely candidate to be Elizabeth's father is Sir Edward [de] Saint John #4, who died before 1398, who was survived by a wife, Alice, living 1405. We have indications that Edward's wife, Alice, was probably the widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq. (died c. 1380), of Dallingridge, Rottingdean, and Sheffield (in Fletching), Sussex.

If Alice, wife of Sir Edward Saint John, was indeed the widow of Roger Dallingridge, it is unlikely that she is the same person as his 2nd known wife, Alice de Lisle, who was born c.1320. I say that because Roger's widow Alice was definitely living as late as 1401, and I believe she was living in 1405. It would be unlikely that Alice de Lisle would have been living as late as 1405. For instance, Alice de Lisle's known sister, Elizabeth de Lisle, was last known to be living way back in 1348.

Also I find that an Edward Saint John served as Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex, 1388-9, 1394-5 [see List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 60]. This can't have been Edward de Saint John #3 who died in 1384, so it must have been Sir Edward Saint John #4, who married Alice. Since this Sir Edward is likely to have been Elizabeth's father, and since Elizabeth was likely born c.1380-5, it seems a good bet that Edward's wife, Alice, was in fact a much younger widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq., and that she was the mother of Elizabeth. Being a young widow of Roger Dallingridge would also explain why Alice lived until at least 1405.

One other thing. Men were usually around aged 40 give or take when they became sheriff. This is a general rule of thumb. Having said that, there are many exceptions of younger or older men becoming sheriff at different ages. But assuming Edward Saint John was about aged 40 when he became sheriff, it would peg his birth as being c.1348. That would make him about 32-37 years old at the birth of your Elizabeth Saint John was born c.1380-5. If so, that chronology would be a good fit for him to have married Alice, the young widow of Roger Dallingridge, Esq. My guess is that he was elected Sheriff in Surrey and Sussex, in right of his wife's dower rights from her Dallingridge marriage.

So several pieces of the puzzle seem to fit together, although further particulars are certainly desired.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

P.S. The possibility still exists that there were two Roger Dallingridge's, both of whom were survived by a widow, Alice. However, I've seen no evidence of a second Roger Dallingridge.
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-14 02:10:58 UTC
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Dear Douglas,

Thank you for your reiteration of the possibilities. The answer is somewhere in all this data. Pat

I just found this which was an interesting point (abbreviated) from the SAC:
"The absentee justices, by contrast, included Richard, earl of Arundel, Dallingridge's principal local patron and Sir Edward Saint John, a trusted servant of the Arundel family."

Roger Dallingridge was returned to Parliament from Sussex in 1360, 1363; was alive in 1374 when he was called a kinsman of John de Ratynden; in 1375 also mentioned with Richard, earl of Arundel, Thomas de Ponynges (Hugh St. John's heir) Edward Sancto Johanne, William de Cobeham (Sussex); in 1374 was a tenant of the manor of Lesseby and lands in Lesseby and Bradel;

16 March 1355 Add Mss 12281 At Up Waltham. Grant by (a) John de Sancto Johanne to (b) Adam le Clerk de Up Waltham and Alice his wife
Lands and tenements called Wardroberislond in Westwaltham Up Waltham (Petworth) which descended to (a) on the death of Eva, his mother

If this John is of age in 1355, then he and his brother were probably born 1320-30, providing ample time to have had a son, Edward who married and Alice.

In 1398 Alice [sic] widow of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Lovell, acting as executors of the will of Edward Saint Johan knight, sued Thomas atte Rede in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39.

Sir Edward Saint John, died by 1398, of Kent, married Alice, possibly born c. 1360.

Again in 1399 Lurgashall and Coates, 1 fee by Alice Seynt Johan of Hugh la Zouche.

1403 To the sheriff of Kent.... if taken at suit of Alice who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Bromflete and William Wateresfelde chaplain, executors of the said Edward, for render of 20l.

In 1405, Alice is found as the widow of Edward St. John, knight in a plea that states: she was the administrator of the goods and chattels of Roger Dalyngrygge who died intestate and that she owed Drew Barentyn of London who sues concerning a bond. Jury rules Alice was not the administrator.

Alice, I believe, died in 1422. She was of Hardham, near Pulborogh, Sussex which was an Augustinian Priory (ancient demesne of William Dawtrey) to which a convent was been attached, indicative of Alice being a nun in her age.

In 5 August 1561, there is a Quitclaim concerning Ilfield and Lurgashall involving John Bysshe of Worth and John Bysshe of Birstow [Burstow], Surrey, gentlemen.
Is this possible?
Edward and Eve Dawtrey St. John
John St. John b. 1330 m. ?
Edward St. John b. 1350 m. Alice, daughter of Roger Dallingrigge by Alice Ratyenden who had a daughter, Joan who m. a Dawtrey (1371 with Richard de Burstow and Niholas Louveyne)
Elizabeth St. John b. 1380 m. Thomas Slyfield
their daughter m. William Bysshe of Worth.
Patricia A. Junkin via
2015-08-12 12:14:28 UTC
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...continued
There is little doubt that we have a conundrum since you have mentioned the following, Who was the Eleanor St. John, wife of Herbert Fitz John who is connected with the manor of Wyghton? Could be missing a generation?
MD239/187
1) Thomas de Brounflet Lord of lounesburgh

2) John de Ask attorney of Anastasia who was wife of Edward St. John Kt.

This indenture witnesses that 1) has assigned and delivered to 2) the dower of Anastasia after the death of Edward viz. of the manor of Wyghton (detailed list), of the manor of lounesburgh (detailed list) and of the manor of Wyverthorp (detailed list).
10 Jun 1389
Given at Wyghton
1342-45 EDWARD III. Matthew son of Herbert to have ratification of the settlement of the manor of Weighton on himself for life, with remainder to Edward de Sancto Johanne and Eva his wife for their lives, remainder to Edward, their son, and the heirs of his body, remainder to John, their son, and the heirs of his body, remainder to the right heirs of the said Matthew. York.
1357 Order to retain in the Kings hands a moiety of the manor of Wyghton, until further order, and not to intermeddle further with the other manors and advowson taken into the king’s hands by the death of Matthew fitz Herbert, delivering up the issues of the latter manors, as the king has learned by inquisition taken by the escheatr that Matthew at his death held the manor of Lounesburgh, and a moiety of the manor of Wyghton for his life by a fine levied in the kings court, with remainder to Edward de Sancto Johanne and Eve his wife, now deceased, for their lives, woth the remainder after their death to Edward their son and the heirs of his body, and that the said moiety is held in chief by the service of the moiety of one knight’s fee and the other manors and the advowson are held of others that the king. One Matthew Fitz Herbert was born ca. 1263 of Warblington, Sussex, probably son of the Matthew son of Herbert to whom King Henry III gave lands in Warblington, Empswoirth, Estney and Watlington. Matthew FitzHerbert was the son of Herbert Fitz John by Eleanor St. John who in 1315 paid a fine for having acquired the manors of Wolverton, Chyreton and Wyghton w/o license.

All the pieces are not fitting.
Again, Douglas, thank you.
Pat
Elizabeth St. John
2018-06-15 23:44:46 UTC
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Hi Pat
Coming a few years late to this thread, but did want to introduce you to The Friends of Lydiard, which maintain a large data base of the St.John family and is accessible to members. You may have some luck with your search there.

https://www.friendsoflydiardpark.org.uk/us.html

With best wishes
Elizabeth St.John

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