Discussion:
New Royal Descent for Thomas Bressey and Elizabeth (Butler) Claiborne
(too old to reply)
iain wallace
2003-07-30 23:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Dear Newsgroup ~
.........snip........
18. ELIZABETH BUTLER (or BOTELER), born before 1612, living 1 March
1668/9, married about 1635 WILLIAM CLAIBORNE, Esq. (living March
1676/7), of Crayford on Isle of Kent, Cheaspeake Bay, and New Kent,
Virginia, Surveyor of the Virginia Colony, member of the Council,
Treasurer and Secretary of the Colony of Virginia, justice of Accomac,
York & Northumberland Counties, Virginia.
References: N.M. Nugent, Cavaliers and Pioneers 1 (1979): 165. Gens.
of Virginia Fams. from VMHB 2 (1981): 1-70. Gens. of Virginia Fams.
from W&M Q. 1 (1982): 841-842. A.L. Jester, Adventurers of Purse and
Person (1987): 184-191.
Some events relating to William Claiborne are recorded in the parish
registers of Crayford, Kent (on the big island called Great Britain). I
transcribed these a couple of years ago, if anyone's interested I could dig
out the details.

Ian Wallace.
Robert O'Connor
2003-07-31 07:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following is a new royal descent from King Henry II through the
Longford and Neville families which goes down to two colonial
immigrants, namely Thomas Bressey, of New England, and Elizabeth
Butler (or Boteler), wife of William Claiborne, of Virginia. The
documentation for this line will appear in my forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry. Please contact me privately at my e-mail
address below for information regarding ordering the book.
There are doubtless other colonial immigrants who descend from the
Longford and Neville families covered below. If anyone has
information on such descents, I'd appreciate if they would post a
brief summary here on the newsgroup.
Thanks for this Doug.

I don't know about any immigrants to America descending from the Longford &
Neville families, but my wife does.

Would you mind posting the full entries from your book to the group so that
I may see the references cited.

Many thanks
Robert
Robert O'Connor
2003-08-02 22:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Doug

I have posted my line from the Neville's of Rolleston as requested. Are you
going to reciprocate with the sources for the line that you have posted, or
will I have to ignore it and remove it from my database for want of
verification?

Regards
Robert
Robert O'Connor
2003-08-02 22:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
ROBERT NEVILLE, of Rolleston, Co. Notts., M 1402 Alice, d. of Sir
Nicholas
Longford, Kt., of Longford, Co. Derby & Withington, Co. Lanc. & his wife
Margaret, d. of Sir Alfred Sulney, Kt., M.P., of Newton Solney, Co. Derby.
(See LONGFORD). Died before 1420. v.p. He had issue: (Ref: Payling, p
237)
The post that I made giving the wife of Robert Neville of Rolleston as Alice
Longford was based on Doug's post in response to his request that I show my
link, not on the reference "Payling, p 237" as I posted.

I have requested that Doug post his source for the Neville/ Longford
connection, and indeed for the whole line that he posted. However, he
appears to have ignored my request.

On this basis the Neville/ Lonford link has not been substantiated and I
must regrettably therefore disavow my post showing that link.

Robert O'Connor
Sutliff
2003-08-03 01:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Robert,

I am sorry to see that Douglas Richardson seems unwilling to answer you.
That other posts have been made by him, makes the avoidance of your posts
obvious. You are one of the most generous people here and I am sorry to see
your sincere posts ignored.

I looked up your request in Payling. At no point does Payling identify
Robert Neville's wife as a Longford on page 237 or anywhere else as anything
but "Alice." Sorry. I think you are wise to disavow the link without further
documentation or response from Richardson.

Hap
Post by Doug McDonald
ROBERT NEVILLE, of Rolleston, Co. Notts., M 1402 Alice, d. of Sir
Nicholas
Longford, Kt., of Longford, Co. Derby & Withington, Co. Lanc. & his wife
Margaret, d. of Sir Alfred Sulney, Kt., M.P., of Newton Solney, Co. Derby.
(See LONGFORD). Died before 1420. v.p. He had issue: (Ref: Payling, p
237)
The post that I made giving the wife of Robert Neville of Rolleston as Alice
Longford was based on Doug's post in response to his request that I show my
link, not on the reference "Payling, p 237" as I posted.
I have requested that Doug post his source for the Neville/ Longford
connection, and indeed for the whole line that he posted. However, he
appears to have ignored my request.
On this basis the Neville/ Lonford link has not been substantiated and I
must regrettably therefore disavow my post showing that link.
Robert O'Connor
D. Spencer Hines
2003-08-03 01:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sound Thinking....

Richardson was fishing....

Sounds as if he's back on his "buy my book and find out" jag again....

Deus Vult.

"I don't care a twopenny damn what becomes of the ashes of Napoleon
Buonaparte." ---- Attributed to Arthur Wellesley, [1769-1852] Duke of
Wellington

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus.

All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Sutliff" <***@redshift.com> wrote in message news:***@corp.supernews.com...

| Robert,
|
| I am sorry to see that Douglas Richardson seems unwilling to answer you.
| That other posts have been made by him, makes the avoidance of your posts
| obvious. You are one of the most generous people here and I am sorry to see
| your sincere posts ignored.
|
| I looked up your request in Payling. At no point does Payling identify
| Robert Neville's wife as a Longford on page 237 or anywhere else as anything
| but "Alice." Sorry. I think you are wise to disavow the link without further
| documentation or response from Richardson.
|
| Hap
|
|
| "Robert O'Connor" <***@es.co.nz> wrote in message
| news:bghf2b$ka2$***@lust.ihug.co.nz...
| >
| > "Robert O'Connor" <***@es.co.nz> wrote in message
| > news:bgd9g1$jhk$***@lust.ihug.co.nz...
| > >
| > > ROBERT NEVILLE, of Rolleston, Co. Notts., M 1402 Alice, d. of Sir
| > > Nicholas Longford, Kt., of Longford, Co. Derby & Withington, Co.
| > > Lanc. & his wife Margaret, d. of Sir Alfred Sulney, Kt., M.P., of
| > > Newton Solney, Co. Derby. (See LONGFORD). Died before 1420.
| > > v.p. He had issue: (Ref: Payling, p 237)
| > >
| >
| > The post that I made giving the wife of Robert Neville of Rolleston as
| > Alice Longford was based on Doug's post in response to his request that
| > I show my link, not on the reference "Payling, p 237" as I posted.
| >
| > I have requested that Doug post his source for the Neville/ Longford
| > connection, and indeed for the whole line that he posted. However, he
| > appears to have ignored my request.
| >
| > On this basis the Neville/Longford link has not been substantiated and I
| > must regrettably therefore disavow my post showing that link.
| >
| > Robert O'Connor
Reedpcgen
2003-08-03 03:48:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Sound Thinking....
Richardson was fishing....
Sounds as if he's back on his "buy my book and find out" jag again....
Sadly, he's finally discovered that Foedera is at the Special Collections of
the University of Utah.

This is a large collection of royal documents, in multiple volumes. Given that
he has made a practice of posting longs strings of "royal relatives" (without
necessarily knowing particulars), and these are royal charters, I dread now the
long string of "discoveries" he will make that have actually been in print for
two centuries. If it's in a book and he reads it, it's a "discovery."

Of course, his spending all this time in Foedera will not aid in getting his
book to press any sooner.

Ah, well. We shall endure.

Paul
Reedpcgen
2003-08-03 03:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Reedpcgen
and these are royal charters
I meant to type, "royal contracts," etc.

Paul
D. Spencer Hines
2003-08-03 04:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
He's been using that ploy for years.

Some fall for it.

Amusing....

Deus Vult.

"I don't care a twopenny damn what becomes of the ashes of Napoleon
Buonaparte." ---- Attributed to Arthur Wellesley, [1769-1852] Duke of
Wellington

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus.

All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material
contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted
only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author,
unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

| >Sound Thinking....
| >
| >Richardson was fishing....
| >
| >Sounds as if he's back on his "buy my book and find out" jag again....

| If it's in a book and he reads it, it's a "discovery."
AGeorgeSand
2003-08-03 07:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
the books may have been there 200 years , but they're news to the rest of
us, who cant all get to Utah...
While it's probably true that posting to the list slows down working on
one's book, Richardson's posts have been among the most pithy and
interesting on the list, thru sometimes long periods of dearth -- along with
a few others of course...

it sounds like it's Reed and Finton who're fishing with their come-ons about
Amy Gaveston rather than giving the verdict. Wish I more curious, but Ho
Hum.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Reedpcgen" <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: New Royal Descent for Thomas Bressey and Elizabeth (Butler)
Claiborne
Post by Reedpcgen
Post by D. Spencer Hines
Sound Thinking....
Richardson was fishing....
Sounds as if he's back on his "buy my book and find out" jag again....
Sadly, he's finally discovered that Foedera is at the Special Collections of
the University of Utah.
This is a large collection of royal documents, in multiple volumes. Given that
he has made a practice of posting longs strings of "royal relatives" (without
necessarily knowing particulars), and these are royal charters, I dread now the
long string of "discoveries" he will make that have actually been in print for
two centuries. If it's in a book and he reads it, it's a "discovery."
Of course, his spending all this time in Foedera will not aid in getting his
book to press any sooner.
Ah, well. We shall endure.
Paul
Chris Phillips
2003-08-03 08:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by AGeorgeSand
the books may have been there 200 years , but they're news to the rest of
us, who cant all get to Utah...
Courtesy of the Bibliotheque nationale de France, ten of the volumes of the
1727-9 edition, though not the complete work, are available as PDF files at
the http://gallica.bnf.fr/ site. (Numbers for "Recherche libre" field:
N093485-N093493, N093495.)

The French-language documents from volume 1 have also recent been made
available by "The Anglo-Norman On-line Hub", at
http://www.anglo-norman.net/texts/foedera-contents.html

Chris Phillips
AGeorgeSand
2003-08-03 16:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
thanks
now all I need is the time to read them!

PS : I protest to making people cut off the original messages; you cant tell
what they're talking about half the time.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <***@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: New Royal Descent for Thomas Bressey and Elizabeth (Butler)
Claiborne
Post by Chris Phillips
Post by AGeorgeSand
the books may have been there 200 years , but they're news to the rest of
us, who cant all get to Utah...
Courtesy of the Bibliotheque nationale de France, ten of the volumes of the
1727-9 edition, though not the complete work, are available as PDF files at
N093485-N093493, N093495.)
The French-language documents from volume 1 have also recent been made
available by "The Anglo-Norman On-line Hub", at
http://www.anglo-norman.net/texts/foedera-contents.html
Chris Phillips
Reedpcgen
2003-08-03 11:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by AGeorgeSand
the books may have been there 200 years , but they're news to the rest of
us, who cant all get to Utah...
This source is actually in most Special Collections of major libraries [Thomas
Rymer, Foedera, Record Commission], and is just rarely used because people
don't know it's value (it's heavily abstracted in CPR, etc.). The first part
is even online, so there you go (perhaps that was what Doug was using). See:

http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/texts/foedera-contents.html
Post by AGeorgeSand
it sounds like it's Reed and Finton who're fishing with their come-ons about
Amy Gaveston rather than giving the verdict. Wish I more curious, but Ho
Hum.
It must be a rough night. Generally you're nice to me. Ken had nothing to do
with the writing of the article, aside from some editing points to conform to
his style. As to summarizing an article dozens of pages beyond 100, a precis I
cannot deliver.

The article was written by Brad Verity and me, and is excrutiatingly detailed
in the discussion of original sources (including foedera). You may have missed
it, but Ken offered to send a copy of this article in PDF format to anyone who
requests it, so if you email him, you'll know the details (there's even some
very good stuff about marriage law, bastardy, proofs of age, and more!).

My best to you, even when you're not feeling yours,

Paul
Douglas Richardson
2003-08-04 05:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by AGeorgeSand
the books may have been there 200 years , but they're news to the rest of
us, who cant all get to Utah...
While it's probably true that posting to the list slows down working on
one's book, Richardson's posts have been among the most pithy and
interesting on the list, thru sometimes long periods of dearth -- along with
a few others of course...
Thanks for the complement, George. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: ***@msn.com
AGeorgeSand
2003-08-04 10:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
not intended to flatter; just a statement of fact
I'm sure you know that I dont worship at your altar and
am glad to proofread you on occasion, as I sometimes
wish someone competent would do for me in good faith, as well...
I'd sudder to think there was nobody out there who knew more
than me about medieval genealogy... although I can
parrot a reputedly valid source up there with the best of them...

but maybe if I proofread myself
long enough, out of sheer desperation because nobody will do it for me --
I might end up really knowing it all.. unfortunately, one rarely lives that
long.
perhaps I'll have no choice but to become immortal
("devenir Immortel, et puis ... mourir..." ? but I suppose he was just
talking about
the Academy Française?)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <***@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: New Royal Descent for Thomas Bressey and Elizabeth (Butler)
Claiborne
Post by Douglas Richardson
Post by AGeorgeSand
the books may have been there 200 years , but they're news to the rest of
us, who cant all get to Utah...
While it's probably true that posting to the list slows down working on
one's book, Richardson's posts have been among the most pithy and
interesting on the list, thru sometimes long periods of dearth -- along with
a few others of course...
Thanks for the complement, George. Much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Robert O'Connor
2003-08-04 09:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Thank you Doug. I have received your email and complement you on a very
detailed study of the Neville/ Langford line. I am delighted to see that
you have quoted copious sources both primary and secondary. With this
information at hand I may now verify the line that you posted several days
ago.

Regards
Robert
AGeorgeSand
2003-08-04 23:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
for some reason, seeing doug complemented is less annoying; must have
something to do with ancient history... but can we keep that stuff to
private posts? it's still cloying and sounds like ads and hype... except of
course, when it's for me... besides, guys like doug get so happy with
themselves, they stop doing anything worthwhile, and soon wont do anything
unless they can charge money for it... you're digging your own graves, I
tell you ... doug is just another schmuck like the rest of us, and makes
mistakes
like the best of us... but he does post lines more often, rather than
alluding to
them vaguely like Paul is doing ...

I only mentioned dougs pithiness to complain about the lack of pith
from some others, (including myself, when not inspired)... so get out there
and inspire us!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert O'Connor" <***@es.co.nz>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: New Royal Descent for Thomas Bressey and Elizabeth (Butler)
Claiborne
Post by Robert O'Connor
Thank you Doug. I have received your email and complement you on a very
detailed study of the Neville/ Langford line. I am delighted to see that
you have quoted copious sources both primary and secondary. With this
information at hand I may now verify the line that you posted several days
ago.
Regards
Robert
Doug McDonald
2003-07-31 13:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by iain wallace
Dear Newsgroup ~
.........snip........
18. ELIZABETH BUTLER (or BOTELER), born before 1612, living 1 March
1668/9, married about 1635 WILLIAM CLAIBORNE, Esq. (living March
1676/7),
Interesting. This is possibly a new royal line for me.

By possibly I mean that the link from my ancestor Nicholas
Cox and William Claiborne, while seen very often, looks
very shaky to me. Most of these lines seem to make Nicholas
a descendent of William Cox, an Ancient Planter who arrived
here in 1610, and this looks to be fantasy. I should add
that I do have a different and solid line to this William Cox.
Nicholas Cox is usually listed as marrying a Mary Claiborne,
who is purported to be a William Claiborne (and Elizabeth
Butler) descendent, again, I see little evidence for this.

Doug McDonald
s***@gmail.com
2017-05-18 07:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Dear Newsgroup ~
The following is a new royal descent from King Henry II through the
Longford and Neville families which goes down to two colonial
immigrants, namely Thomas Bressey, of New England, and Elizabeth
Butler (or Boteler), wife of William Claiborne, of Virginia. The
documentation for this line will appear in my forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry. Please contact me privately at my e-mail
address below for information regarding ordering the book.
There are doubtless other colonial immigrants who descend from the
Longford and Neville families covered below. If anyone has
information on such descents, I'd appreciate if they would post a
brief summary here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I. THOMAS BRESSEY LINE
l. HENRY II, King of England, by a mistress, IDA _____.
2. WILLIAM LONGESPÉE, Knt., Earl of Salisbury, married ELA OF
SALISBURY.
3. IDA LONGESPÉE, married WALTER FITZ ROBERT, Knt., Baron of Little
Dunmow, Essex.
4. ELA FITZ WALTER, married WILLIAM DE ODDINGSELES, Knt., of Solihull,
co. Warwick.
5. IDA DE ODDINGSELES, married ROGER DE HERDEBURGH, Knt., of
Prilleston, Norfolk.
6. ELA DE HERDEBURGH, married WILLIAM LE BOTELER (or LE BOTILLER),
Knt., of Wem, co. Salop.
7. ALICE LE BOTELER, married NICHOLAS DE LONGFORD, Knt., of Longford,
co. Derby.
8. NICHOLAS DE LONGFORD, Knt., of Longford, co. Derby, married ALICE
DEINCOURT.
9. NICHOLAS LONGFORD, Knt., of Longford, co. Derby, married MARGERY
(or MARGARET) SULNEY.
10. ALICE LONGFORD, married ROBERT NEVILLE, Esq., of Rolleston, co.
Nottingham.
11. THOMAS NEVILLE, Esq., of Rolleston, co. Nottingham, married
ELIZABETH BABINGTON.
12. WILLIAM NEVILLE, Esq., of Rolleston, co. Nottingham, and Holt, co.
Leicester, married KATHERINE PALMER.
13. THOMAS NEVILLE, Esq., of Holt, co. Leicester, married ISABEL
GRIFFIN.
14. THOMAS NEVILLE, of Cotterstock and Cottingham, co. Northampton,
married ALICE WAUTON.
i. JANE NEVILLE [see next].
ii.ANNE NEVILLE, married JOHN SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Bletsoe and
Keysoe, co. Bedford [see BUTLER-CLAIBORNE line].
15. JANE NEVILLE, married WILLIAM CHAMBERLAIN (alias SPICER), of
Normanton-on-Soar, co. Nottingham.
16. AMPHYLLIS CHAMBERLAIN, married THOMAS SHEPPARD, Gent., of Maulden,
Hockliffe, and Littlecote (in Stewkley), co. Bedford.
17. CONSTANCE SHEPPARD, married EDMUND BRESSEY, Gent., of Maulden and
Wootton, co. Bedford.
18. THOMAS BRESSEY, baptized at Maulden, co. Bedford 8 Nov. 1601, 2nd
son, linen draper of London, immigrated to New England with his 2nd
wife in 1634 (in 1641 styled in London as "Thomas Brasey,
linen-draper, in New England"), died before 1648. He married (1st) at
London by license dated 30 Jan. 1626/7 HANNAH HART. He married (2nd)
at St. Lawrence Jewry, London 4 Aug. 1631 PHEBE BISBY, daughter of
William Bisby, of London. Reference: NEHGR 112 (1958): 42–44.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
II. BUTLER-CLAIBORNE LINE
14. THOMAS NEVILLE, of Cotterstock and Cottingham, co. Northampton,
married ALICE WAUTON (see above for earlier generations).
15. ANNE NEVILLE, married JOHN SAINT JOHN, Knt., of Bletsoe and
Keysoe, co. Bedford.
16. CRESSETT SAINT JOHN, married JOHN BUTLER (or BOTELER), Esq., of
Tofte and Lorings (both in Sharnbrook), and Souldrop, co. Bedford.
17. JOHN BUTLER(or BOTELER), Esq., of Little Birch, Essex, married
JANE ELLIOTT.
18. ELIZABETH BUTLER (or BOTELER), born before 1612, living 1 March
1668/9, married about 1635 WILLIAM CLAIBORNE, Esq. (living March
1676/7), of Crayford on Isle of Kent, Cheaspeake Bay, and New Kent,
Virginia, Surveyor of the Virginia Colony, member of the Council,
Treasurer and Secretary of the Colony of Virginia, justice of Accomac,
York & Northumberland Counties, Virginia.
References: N.M. Nugent, Cavaliers and Pioneers 1 (1979): 165. Gens.
of Virginia Fams. from VMHB 2 (1981): 1–70. Gens. of Virginia Fams.
from W&M Q. 1 (1982): 841–842. A.L. Jester, Adventurers of Purse and
Person (1987): 184–191.
Just wondering, I have looked all through this line on Geni.com and tried to connect Elizabeth Butler Claiborne to King Henry II and what they have is completely different. Is what is in here more accurate?
Loading...