Discussion:
de Ros/Roos of Yorkshire
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m***@btinternet.com
2007-03-17 23:22:27 UTC
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I happened to find myself at Roos, Yorkshire this afternoon - the
ancestral home of the de Ros/Roos family. The local pub is named the
de Ros arms, and has the family arms on its sign, together with a
reference to Robert de Ros, ff 1264.

I took a couple of photographs which I am happy to email to anyone
who might be interested.

Michael Andrews-Reading
Don Aitken
2007-03-17 23:46:22 UTC
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Post by m***@btinternet.com
I happened to find myself at Roos, Yorkshire this afternoon - the
ancestral home of the de Ros/Roos family. The local pub is named the
de Ros arms, and has the family arms on its sign, together with a
reference to Robert de Ros, ff 1264.
I took a couple of photographs which I am happy to email to anyone
who might be interested.
Where is this Roos? If it is the one in Holderness it seems rather a
long way from Helmsley, which I always thought was their original
seat. Is there anything more than an enterprising publican and a
coincidence of name here?
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
m***@btinternet.com
2007-03-18 08:05:13 UTC
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Post by Don Aitken
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I happened to find myself at Roos, Yorkshire this afternoon - the
ancestral home of the de Ros/Roos family. The local pub is named the
de Ros arms, and has the family arms on its sign, together with a
reference to Robert de Ros, ff 1264.
I took a couple of photographs which I am happy to email to anyone
who might be interested.
Where is this Roos? If it is the one in Holderness it seems rather a
long way from Helmsley, which I always thought was their original
seat. Is there anything more than an enterprising publican and a
coincidence of name here?
Indeed - Roos in Holderness.

Dugdale commences his history of the de Ros family thus:

"That the ancestor of this great and noble family, viz Peter [father
of Robert], did originally assume his sirname from that Lordship in
Holderness called Ros where he then had his residence, needeth not to
be doubted."

MA-R
Don Aitken
2007-03-18 14:49:00 UTC
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Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by Don Aitken
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I happened to find myself at Roos, Yorkshire this afternoon - the
ancestral home of the de Ros/Roos family. The local pub is named the
de Ros arms, and has the family arms on its sign, together with a
reference to Robert de Ros, ff 1264.
I took a couple of photographs which I am happy to email to anyone
who might be interested.
Where is this Roos? If it is the one in Holderness it seems rather a
long way from Helmsley, which I always thought was their original
seat. Is there anything more than an enterprising publican and a
coincidence of name here?
Indeed - Roos in Holderness.
"That the ancestor of this great and noble family, viz Peter [father
of Robert], did originally assume his sirname from that Lordship in
Holderness called Ros where he then had his residence, needeth not to
be doubted."
Thanks. I stoppeth doubting it!
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
m***@btinternet.com
2007-03-18 15:37:25 UTC
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Post by Don Aitken
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by Don Aitken
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I happened to find myself at Roos, Yorkshire this afternoon - the
ancestral home of the de Ros/Roos family. The local pub is named the
de Ros arms, and has the family arms on its sign, together with a
reference to Robert de Ros, ff 1264.
I took a couple of photographs which I am happy to email to anyone
who might be interested.
Where is this Roos? If it is the one in Holderness it seems rather a
long way from Helmsley, which I always thought was their original
seat. Is there anything more than an enterprising publican and a
coincidence of name here?
Indeed - Roos in Holderness.
"That the ancestor of this great and noble family, viz Peter [father
of Robert], did originally assume his sirname from that Lordship in
Holderness called Ros where he then had his residence, needeth not to
be doubted."
Thanks. I stoppeth doubting it!
--
Don Aitken
On the contrary; your doubt was good, because it made me check my
assumption. ODNB gives further particulars of how Helmsley (Hamslake)
came to the family subsequently.

MA-R
Turenne
2007-03-18 20:29:17 UTC
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Post by m***@btinternet.com
Michael
Yes please.
Yours aye
Stephen
Ditto,

Cheers and thanks,

Richard
John P. Ravilious
2007-03-18 21:28:37 UTC
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m***@btinternet.com
2007-03-18 21:39:07 UTC
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Dear Michael,
On the subject of the origin of the name de Ros (or de Roos), I
am certain that Dugdale had the deriviation turned around. The name
de Ros derives from the Norman origin of the family, most likely after
the vill or manor of Rots near Caen. We find Aschetil, Goisfrid and
Serlo de Ros holding lands in England of at Domesday Book (1086), and
I think it unlikely that this group bearing Norman names derived their
name from an English location at that date. Of this group, Serlo de
Ros held his lands of William Espec, and it may be that Piers de Ros
(steward of the Count of Aumale in his lordship of Holderness) who
married the heiress Adeline Espec, and was thereby ancestor of the de
Ros of Helmsley, was his son - unfortunately, any exact relationship
remains unknown.
Concerning the connection of Ros in Holderness with the family,
there was in fact a connection, in the 13th century at least. The IPM
of Robert de Ros of Hamelacke [extent made on Tuesday the morrow of
St. Barnabas, 13 Edw. I - i.e., 12 June 1285] includes the following
- ' Robert de Ros held of the king in chief the manor of Hamelacke
with members, in which is a castle, worth by the year 13s. 4d.
- ' He held at Wartram [Warter] of Trussebut fee of the king
nineteen and a half bovates of land in bondage (at 10s.).
- ' He held also in Holdernes of the king by escheat in the
name of Avelina, formerly heir of Albemarle, at Ros, part
of a manor which is worth by the year 5s. 8d. There are
in demesne eleven bovates and the fourth part of one
bovate (at 10s.), and in bondage sixteen bovates and
three parts (that is, fourths) of one bovate (at 10s.).
Free tenants yield nearly 12s., other seven free tenants
for life 14s. 4d. Nine cottages are worth by the year
13s. 3d.; a meadow, called Tunstalker, 26s. 8d.; a
windmill, 26s. 8d.; a fishery, which [is called] Pidesse
[probably Burton Pidsea], 3s.; and a free court of the
manor, 40s.
- ' These tenements Robert de Ros held formerly of
the Earl of Albemarle, and now of the king by escheat,
by the service of one knight's fee.
- ' The same Robert held of Sir (domino) Herbert de
St. Quintin the town of Ros, part of the aforesaid
chief manor, by knight's service, and it is worth by
the year 40d. There are thirty-two bovates held
of the said Herbert (at 10s.). Nine cottages are
worth yearly 12s. 3d. ' [1]
Cheers,
John
Many thanks, John. I am ashamed to say that, although I have a Ros
descent, I have not spent any time looking into the family. I wonder
if CP adds anything much to this account?

Best wishes, Michael
John P. Ravilious
2007-03-18 21:47:13 UTC
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Dear Michael,

There is quite a bit in CP. At the same time, if you'd let me
know where your de Ros descent ends (or 'daughters out' as the case
may be), I'll see what I have that might be of use. Most of the lines
I've traced are for Helmsley, Ingmanthorpe and Wark, but there are
other links in my database including as many daughters as I've been
able to identify - thanks largely to the many contributors to SGM over
the years.

Cheers,

John
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Dear Michael,
On the subject of the origin of the name de Ros (or de Roos), I
am certain that Dugdale had the deriviation turned around. The name
de Ros derives from the Norman origin of the family, most likely after
the vill or manor of Rots near Caen. We find Aschetil, Goisfrid and
Serlo de Ros holding lands in England of at Domesday Book (1086), and
I think it unlikely that this group bearing Norman names derived their
name from an English location at that date. Of this group, Serlo de
Ros held his lands of William Espec, and it may be that Piers de Ros
(steward of the Count of Aumale in his lordship of Holderness) who
married the heiress Adeline Espec, and was thereby ancestor of the de
Ros of Helmsley, was his son - unfortunately, any exact relationship
remains unknown.
Concerning the connection of Ros in Holderness with the family,
there was in fact a connection, in the 13th century at least. The IPM
of Robert de Ros of Hamelacke [extent made on Tuesday the morrow of
St. Barnabas, 13 Edw. I - i.e., 12 June 1285] includes the following
- ' Robert de Ros held of the king in chief the manor of Hamelacke
with members, in which is a castle, worth by the year 13s. 4d.
- ' He held at Wartram [Warter] of Trussebut fee of the king
nineteen and a half bovates of land in bondage (at 10s.).
- ' He held also in Holdernes of the king by escheat in the
name of Avelina, formerly heir of Albemarle, at Ros, part
of a manor which is worth by the year 5s. 8d. There are
in demesne eleven bovates and the fourth part of one
bovate (at 10s.), and in bondage sixteen bovates and
three parts (that is, fourths) of one bovate (at 10s.).
Free tenants yield nearly 12s., other seven free tenants
for life 14s. 4d. Nine cottages are worth by the year
13s. 3d.; a meadow, called Tunstalker, 26s. 8d.; a
windmill, 26s. 8d.; a fishery, which [is called] Pidesse
[probably Burton Pidsea], 3s.; and a free court of the
manor, 40s.
- ' These tenements Robert de Ros held formerly of
the Earl of Albemarle, and now of the king by escheat,
by the service of one knight's fee.
- ' The same Robert held of Sir (domino) Herbert de
St. Quintin the town of Ros, part of the aforesaid
chief manor, by knight's service, and it is worth by
the year 40d. There are thirty-two bovates held
of the said Herbert (at 10s.). Nine cottages are
worth yearly 12s. 3d. ' [1]
Cheers,
John
Many thanks, John. I am ashamed to say that, although I have a Ros
descent, I have not spent any time looking into the family. I wonder
if CP adds anything much to this account?
Best wishes, Michael- Hide quoted text -
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m***@btinternet.com
2007-03-18 21:54:11 UTC
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Dear Michael,
There is quite a bit in CP. At the same time, if you'd let me
know where your de Ros descent ends (or 'daughters out' as the case
may be), I'll see what I have that might be of use. Most of the lines
I've traced are for Helmsley, Ingmanthorpe and Wark, but there are
other links in my database including as many daughters as I've been
able to identify - thanks largely to the many contributors to SGM over
the years.
Cheers,
John
Thanks again, John; my line "daughters out" with Agnes, wife of Pain
de Tibetot. I'd certainly be interested in your details.

Best wishes, Michael
John P. Ravilious
2007-03-18 22:24:02 UTC
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-03-18 23:39:46 UTC
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Dear Michael,
Here is the de Ros ancestry of Agnes de Ros, as I currently have
it. Of course, any criticism or added documentation would be welcome.
<snip>
1.1.1.1.1 Sir William de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1264[1]
Burial: Kirkham
of Helmsley in Holderness, co. York
heir of his aunt Hilaire on her death (1241), inherited her
share of the Trussebut fee [her share consisted of 3 1/2
knights' fees, including Melton, Copgrave and Stivelingflet
(Stillingfleet), incl. West Cottingwith [Yorks. Inqs. I:10,
IPM of her sister Agatha Trussebut[12]; also VCH East Riding
III:112-120[13]]
on pilgrimage to Santiago del Compostela, 1252[1]
'Will'm de Ros', knight
Arms: ' Gules three water bougets argent ' [ H S London,
Rolls of Arms, Henry III, Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries,
London, 1967 - ca. 1252 or later, B 66 ][14]
Spouse: Lucy 'filia Piers'
Death: aft 1265[5]
Father: Piers fitz Herbert, of Blaen Llyfni (->1235)
Mother: Alice fitz Roger
In CP XI, p. 94, note (h) they say of Lucy that:

'she is said by Dugdale ... to have been da. of "Reginald Fitz-piers of
Blewbeny in Wales". If she belonged to this family, she was presumably
... da. of Piers FitzHerbert, lords of the Honour of Brecknock, whose
castle was at Blaenllyfni.'

Do you have any firmer sources for this ancestry?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
John P. Ravilious
2007-03-19 01:40:18 UTC
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-03-19 13:36:46 UTC
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In message of 19 Mar, "John P. Ravilious" <***@aol.com> wrote:

<On the parents of Lucy wife of Sir William Ros>
A. Werthorp (Wiverthorpe), Yorks. was one of the holdings of the
FitzHerberts (later lords of Blaen Llyfni), and was to be found later
in the maritagium of Mary de Ros, wife of Sir William de Braose of
Bramber and Gower.
Many thanks. Looks very good. Do you have a reference for this
maritagium?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Janet
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Have anyone of you ever heard of Levi Stuart/Stewart born about 1690, who
married Orr.
I know 1690 is not medieval but I know you all know a lot about the
Stuart/Stewart family
Levi was said to born in Scotland. His wife was__ Orr daughter James and
Janet McClement Orr.



Janet
John P. Ravilious
2007-03-19 16:35:08 UTC
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Dear Tim,

The reference I have is given in note [5] in the post, "[5] CP II:
302, note (i)." The CP article in question is that of de Braose or
Breuse, concerning the lords of Bramber and Gower. The matter of
Werthorpe, or Wiverthorpe (Weaverthorpe), also was dealt with in one
or more prior threads by Doug Richardson, and is cited in Plantagenet
Ancestry [2004].

I should also note, Rosie Bevan has kindly pointed out a
geographical error in the earlier post. Several entries in the de Ros
pedigree given "Helmsley in Holderness", which was an older error on
my part not previously corrected. As Rosie noted, Helmsley in in the
North Riding of Yorkshire, not in the East Riding (Holderness or
otherwise).

Cheers,

John
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
<On the parents of Lucy wife of Sir William Ros>
A. Werthorp (Wiverthorpe), Yorks. was one of the holdings of the
FitzHerberts (later lords of Blaen Llyfni), and was to be found later
in the maritagium of Mary de Ros, wife of Sir William de Braose of
Bramber and Gower.
Many thanks. Looks very good. Do you have a reference for this
maritagium?
--
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-03-20 00:06:37 UTC
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Post by John P. Ravilious
Dear Tim,
302, note (i)." The CP article in question is that of de Braose or
Breuse, concerning the lords of Bramber and Gower. The matter of
Werthorpe, or Wiverthorpe (Weaverthorpe), also was dealt with in one
or more prior threads by Doug Richardson, and is cited in Plantagenet
Ancestry [2004].
Thanks. Remarkably this is one of the facts where CP does not give
their reference. I wonder what it was?
Post by John P. Ravilious
I should also note, Rosie Bevan has kindly pointed out a
geographical error in the earlier post. Several entries in the de Ros
pedigree given "Helmsley in Holderness", which was an older error on
my part not previously corrected. As Rosie noted, Helmsley in in the
North Riding of Yorkshire, not in the East Riding (Holderness or
otherwise).
Cheers,
John
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
<On the parents of Lucy wife of Sir William Ros>
A. Werthorp (Wiverthorpe), Yorks. was one of the holdings of the
FitzHerberts (later lords of Blaen Llyfni), and was to be found later
in the maritagium of Mary de Ros, wife of Sir William de Braose of
Bramber and Gower.
Many thanks. Looks very good. Do you have a reference for this
maritagium?
--
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Rosie Bevan
2007-03-22 09:26:13 UTC
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In addition to this compelling evidence presented by John is a charter
by Reginald fitz Piers, confirming the gift of the advowson of
Weaverthorpe to St Peter's, York. This charter was witnessed by the
heavy presence of the Ros family - Robert, Peter, and William de Ros,
presumably nephews of Reginald.

"Carta D. Reginaldi filii Herberti, de Ecclesia de Wiverthorpe
Omnibus Christi fidelibus praesens scriptum visuris vel audituris,
Reginaldus filius Petri, salutem in Domino. Noveritis me dedisse,
concessisse, et hac praesenti carta mea confirmasse decao et capitulo
sancti Petri Eborum, pro salute animae meae, et animarum antecessorum
et haeredum meorum, advocationem ecclesiae de Wiverthorpe, cum
pertinentiis. Habendam et tenendam eisdem decano et capitulo, et
successoribus eorum, de me et haeredibus meis, in puram et perpetuam
elemosinam, liberam, et quietam ab omni seculari servitio, et
exactione in perpetuum. Ego vero Reginaldus et haeredes mei
warrantizabimus, &c. eidem decano et capitulo, contra omnes gentes in
perpetuum, &c. In cujus rei testimonium praesens scriptum sigillo meo
roboravi, his testibus, domino Roberto de Ros, domino Petro de Ros,
domino Willielmo de Ros, domino Roberto de Thweng; domino W. de
Wivele, et aliis."

Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1196, Num. CXII

Weaverthorpe is located in the east Riding of Yorkshire and was
anciently held by the Archbishop of York. It was worth 30l. p.a. in
Edward the Confessor's time, but after the harrying of the north by
William the Conqueror it was considered waste in the Domesday account.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ERY/Weaverthorpe/Weaverthorpe92.html

Cheers

Rosie
Post by John P. Ravilious
Dear Tim,
A. Werthorp (Wiverthorpe), Yorks. was one of the holdings of the
FitzHerberts (later lords of Blaen Llyfni), and was to be found later
in the maritagium of Mary de Ros, wife of Sir William de Braose of
Bramber and Gower.
1. Grant, 1109x1119 by Thomas, Archbishop of York to 'Lord
Herbert the Chamberlain, and his son in fee Londesbrough, with
Tolthorp, Wiverthorpe, ....' ["Thomas Dei gratia Eboracensis
archiepiscopus,.... Notum vobis facio, quod ego dedi domino
Herberto Camerario, et filio ejus, in feodum Laundesbrough,
cum Tolethorpe, Wiverthorpe, ...."] [1]
2. Confirmation, 1135x1143 by King Stephen to 'William the
treasurer of York, my chaplain.... Know that I have grant to
the same William those churches held in fee by Herbert his
brother, .... that is, the church of Wiverthorpe, the church
of Laundesbrough, and teh church of 'Cleram', with chapels
and appurtenances; and the church of Staunton .... And will
and precept that these be held well, peacefully and honorably
just as by his father and his brother Herbert to whom these
were given and granted , and just as the charter of King
Henry attests. ' ["Stephanus rex Angliae ... Sciatis me
concessisse eidem Willielmo [thesaurarius Eborum, capellanus
meus] ecclesias quas tenet de feodo Herberti fratris sui,...
scilicet ecclesiam de Wiverthorpe, ecclesiam de Laundesbrough
et ecclesiam de Clera[m], cum capellis et pertinentibus; et
eccelsiam de Staunton cum terris et decimis omnibus et rebus
eis pertinentibus. Et volo et praecipio, quod bene et in
pace, et honorifice tenent, sicut pater ejus et frater ejus
Herbertus eas ei dederunt et concesserunt, et sicut carta
regis Henr. testatur. Testibus, G. archiepisc. Eborum; D.
episcopo Elm. et Johanne episc. Sag. et Roberto de Veer; et
Willielmo Martell, apud Eborum. ' [2]
3. Confirmation, 1154x1181 by Stephen, son of Herbert the
Chamberlain, of the grant by William de Scures to St. Peter's
of York of the church of Blessed Mary of Thornton and the
advowson of the church of Acklam. [3]
4. Grant, 1264x1269 by Reginald fitz Peter (d. 1285) to St.
Peter's of York of the advowson of Wiverthorpe [final concord
between Reginald fitz Peter, querent and William, dean of St.
Peter's, in the court of King Henry III at Westminster,
53 Hen. III]. [4]
Wiverthorpe [als. Werthorp, Weaverthorpe], co. Yorks. or a moiety
thereof was evidently the maritagium of Lucy, daughter of Piers fitz
Herbert and wife of Robert de Ros. Her granddaughter Mary de Ros had
lands in 'Werthorp' as her maritagium when married to Sir William de
Breuse [5].
B. Chronology supports Piers fitz Herbert as Lucy's father.
Sir William de Ros and his wife Lucy were likely born say
1200-1210. Their eldest grandson, Sir William de Ros of Helmsley, was
born ca. 1253-1255, and evidently before 27 June 1255 (he was stated
as being aged '30 and more' at one of his father's IPMs, 27 June
1285). The Yorkshire IPM states he was '32 and more' on 12 June 1285
[6].
Piers fitz Herbert and his wife Alice were married ca. 28 Nov
1203, the date of their marriage settlement [7]. Lucy could have
easily been their daughter: it is virtually impossible for their son
Reynold (born say 1204-1214) to have been the great-grandfather of Sir
William de Ros (b. ca. 1253/55, or before).
C. Onomastic evidence supports the FitzHerbert identification of
Lucy's parentage.
The issue of Sir William de Ros and his wife Lucy include a
second son Piers, and a fifth son Herbert, both FitzHerbert names. We
have a charter of Sir Robert, witnessed by his brothers Sir Peter, Sir
William, Sir Alexander and Sir Herbert [ " Hiis testibus: Dominis
Petro de Ros, Willelmo de Ros, Alexandro de Ros, Herberto de Ros,
militibus et fratribus,..." ] enfeoffing Thomas de Werke, chaplain, in
certain lands in Helmsley, dated 1264x1285 [8]. Evidently, Piers de
Ros was named for his maternal grandfather. As to the two known
daughters, the source of the name of Lucy is obvious; that of Alice
(wife of John Comyn of Badenoch, whose maritagium included the manor
of Ulceby, co. Lincs.] was taken from Alice 'fitz Roger', wife of
Piers fitz Herbert.
The evidence for this identification I find is quite compelling,
to the point where I see no basis for dispute. That is, that Lucy was
the sister (not daughter) of Sir Reynold fitz Piers, and daughter of
Piers fitz Herbert of Blaen Llyfni.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1196, Num. CIX.
[2] Dugdale, ibid., Num. CX.
[3] Dugdale, ibid., Num. CXI.
[4] Dugdale, ibid., Nums. CXII, CXIII.
[5] CP II:302, note (i).
[6] Yorks. Inqs. II:32-36.
[7] CP V:465.
[8] Rutland MSS. [HMC series], IV:84, no. (21).
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Dear Michael,
? ? Here is the de Ros ancestry of Agnes de Ros, as I currently have
it. ?Of course, any criticism or added documentation would be welcome.
<snip>
1.1.1.1.1 Sir William de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: ? ? ca 1264[1]
Burial: ? ?Kirkham
of Helmsley in Holderness, co. York
heir of his aunt Hilaire on her death (1241), inherited her
?share of the Trussebut fee [her share consisted of 3 1/2
?knights' fees, including Melton, Copgrave and Stivelingflet
?(Stillingfleet), incl. West Cottingwith [Yorks. Inqs. I:10,
?IPM of her sister Agatha Trussebut[12]; also VCH East Riding
?III:112-120[13]]
on pilgrimage to Santiago del Compostela, 1252[1]
'Will'm de Ros', knight
? ?Arms: ?' Gules three water bougets argent ' [ H S London,
?Rolls of Arms, Henry III, Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries,
?London, 1967 - ca. 1252 or later, B 66 ][14]
Spouse: ? ?Lucy 'filia Piers'
Death: ? ? aft 1265[5]
Father: ? ?Piers fitz Herbert, of Blaen Llyfni (->1235)
Mother: ? ?Alice fitz Roger
? 'she is said by Dugdale ... to have been da. of "Reginald Fitz-piers of
? Blewbeny in Wales". ?If she belonged to this family, she was presumably
? ... da. of Piers FitzHerbert, lords of the Honour of Brecknock, whose
? castle was at Blaenllyfni.'
Do you have any firmer sources for this ancestry?
--
?????????????For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hide quoted text -
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-03-22 10:58:01 UTC
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Post by Rosie Bevan
In addition to this compelling evidence presented by John is a charter
by Reginald fitz Piers, confirming the gift of the advowson of
Weaverthorpe to St Peter's, York. This charter was witnessed by the
heavy presence of the Ros family - Robert, Peter, and William de Ros,
presumably nephews of Reginald.
"Carta D. Reginaldi filii Herberti, de Ecclesia de Wiverthorpe
Omnibus Christi fidelibus praesens scriptum visuris vel audituris,
Reginaldus filius Petri, salutem in Domino. Noveritis me dedisse,
concessisse, et hac praesenti carta mea confirmasse decao et capitulo
sancti Petri Eborum, pro salute animae meae, et animarum antecessorum
et haeredum meorum, advocationem ecclesiae de Wiverthorpe, cum
pertinentiis. Habendam et tenendam eisdem decano et capitulo, et
successoribus eorum, de me et haeredibus meis, in puram et perpetuam
elemosinam, liberam, et quietam ab omni seculari servitio, et
exactione in perpetuum. Ego vero Reginaldus et haeredes mei
warrantizabimus, &c. eidem decano et capitulo, contra omnes gentes in
perpetuum, &c. In cujus rei testimonium praesens scriptum sigillo meo
roboravi, his testibus, domino Roberto de Ros, domino Petro de Ros,
domino Willielmo de Ros, domino Roberto de Thweng; domino W. de
Wivele, et aliis."
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1196, Num. CXII
Weaverthorpe is located in the east Riding of Yorkshire and was
anciently held by the Archbishop of York. It was worth 30l. p.a. in
Edward the Confessor's time, but after the harrying of the north by
William the Conqueror it was considered waste in the Domesday account.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ERY/Weaverthorpe/Weaverthorpe92.html
Thanks for that elucidation. However there is a general principle here
that I am not sure I understand. It concerns the 'advowson'. Advowson,
in more modern times at least, is the right of presenting a nominee to a
vacant ecclesiastical job (see sundry Wiki articles on this). Advowsons
can be owned, traded and gifted separately from any land. Advowsons may
once have belonged to the owners of some land that had something to do
with the ecclesiastical job, but ownership of an advowson does not imply
ownership of the land.

That said the four charters concerning Wiverthorpe seem to me to be all
to do with the advowson and not to do with the lands. So they do not of
themselves imply anything on who held the lands. Or is this line of
reasoning wrong?

I have not snipped the long chunk of what follows as it is relevant to
this question.
Post by Rosie Bevan
Post by John P. Ravilious
Dear Tim,
A. Werthorp (Wiverthorpe), Yorks. was one of the holdings of the
FitzHerberts (later lords of Blaen Llyfni), and was to be found later
in the maritagium of Mary de Ros, wife of Sir William de Braose of
Bramber and Gower.
1. Grant, 1109x1119 by Thomas, Archbishop of York to 'Lord
Herbert the Chamberlain, and his son in fee Londesbrough, with
Tolthorp, Wiverthorpe, ....' ["Thomas Dei gratia Eboracensis
archiepiscopus,.... Notum vobis facio, quod ego dedi domino
Herberto Camerario, et filio ejus, in feodum Laundesbrough,
cum Tolethorpe, Wiverthorpe, ...."] [1]
2. Confirmation, 1135x1143 by King Stephen to 'William the
treasurer of York, my chaplain.... Know that I have grant to
the same William those churches held in fee by Herbert his
brother, .... that is, the church of Wiverthorpe, the church
of Laundesbrough, and teh church of 'Cleram', with chapels
and appurtenances; and the church of Staunton .... And will
and precept that these be held well, peacefully and honorably
just as by his father and his brother Herbert to whom these
were given and granted , and just as the charter of King
Henry attests. ' ["Stephanus rex Angliae ... Sciatis me
concessisse eidem Willielmo [thesaurarius Eborum, capellanus
meus] ecclesias quas tenet de feodo Herberti fratris sui,...
scilicet ecclesiam de Wiverthorpe, ecclesiam de Laundesbrough
et ecclesiam de Clera[m], cum capellis et pertinentibus; et
eccelsiam de Staunton cum terris et decimis omnibus et rebus
eis pertinentibus. Et volo et praecipio, quod bene et in
pace, et honorifice tenent, sicut pater ejus et frater ejus
Herbertus eas ei dederunt et concesserunt, et sicut carta
regis Henr. testatur. Testibus, G. archiepisc. Eborum; D.
episcopo Elm. et Johanne episc. Sag. et Roberto de Veer; et
Willielmo Martell, apud Eborum. ' [2]
3. Confirmation, 1154x1181 by Stephen, son of Herbert the
Chamberlain, of the grant by William de Scures to St. Peter's
of York of the church of Blessed Mary of Thornton and the
advowson of the church of Acklam. [3]
4. Grant, 1264x1269 by Reginald fitz Peter (d. 1285) to St.
Peter's of York of the advowson of Wiverthorpe [final concord
between Reginald fitz Peter, querent and William, dean of St.
Peter's, in the court of King Henry III at Westminster,
53 Hen. III]. [4]
Wiverthorpe [als. Werthorp, Weaverthorpe], co. Yorks. or a moiety
thereof was evidently the maritagium of Lucy, daughter of Piers fitz
Herbert and wife of Robert de Ros. Her granddaughter Mary de Ros had
lands in 'Werthorp' as her maritagium when married to Sir William de
Breuse [5].
B. Chronology supports Piers fitz Herbert as Lucy's father.
Sir William de Ros and his wife Lucy were likely born say
1200-1210. Their eldest grandson, Sir William de Ros of Helmsley, was
born ca. 1253-1255, and evidently before 27 June 1255 (he was stated
as being aged '30 and more' at one of his father's IPMs, 27 June
1285). The Yorkshire IPM states he was '32 and more' on 12 June 1285
[6].
Piers fitz Herbert and his wife Alice were married ca. 28 Nov
1203, the date of their marriage settlement [7]. Lucy could have
easily been their daughter: it is virtually impossible for their son
Reynold (born say 1204-1214) to have been the great-grandfather of Sir
William de Ros (b. ca. 1253/55, or before).
C. Onomastic evidence supports the FitzHerbert identification of
Lucy's parentage.
The issue of Sir William de Ros and his wife Lucy include a
second son Piers, and a fifth son Herbert, both FitzHerbert names. We
have a charter of Sir Robert, witnessed by his brothers Sir Peter, Sir
William, Sir Alexander and Sir Herbert [ " Hiis testibus: Dominis
Petro de Ros, Willelmo de Ros, Alexandro de Ros, Herberto de Ros,
militibus et fratribus,..." ] enfeoffing Thomas de Werke, chaplain, in
certain lands in Helmsley, dated 1264x1285 [8]. Evidently, Piers de
Ros was named for his maternal grandfather. As to the two known
daughters, the source of the name of Lucy is obvious; that of Alice
(wife of John Comyn of Badenoch, whose maritagium included the manor
of Ulceby, co. Lincs.] was taken from Alice 'fitz Roger', wife of
Piers fitz Herbert.
The evidence for this identification I find is quite compelling,
to the point where I see no basis for dispute. That is, that Lucy was
the sister (not daughter) of Sir Reynold fitz Piers, and daughter of
Piers fitz Herbert of Blaen Llyfni.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1196, Num. CIX.
[2] Dugdale, ibid., Num. CX.
[3] Dugdale, ibid., Num. CXI.
[4] Dugdale, ibid., Nums. CXII, CXIII.
[5] CP II:302, note (i).
[6] Yorks. Inqs. II:32-36.
[7] CP V:465.
[8] Rutland MSS. [HMC series], IV:84, no. (21).
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Dear Michael,
? ? Here is the de Ros ancestry of Agnes de Ros, as I currently have
it. ?Of course, any criticism or added documentation would be welcome.
<snip>
1.1.1.1.1 Sir William de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: ? ? ca 1264[1]
Burial: ? ?Kirkham
of Helmsley in Holderness, co. York
heir of his aunt Hilaire on her death (1241), inherited her
?share of the Trussebut fee [her share consisted of 3 1/2
?knights' fees, including Melton, Copgrave and Stivelingflet
?(Stillingfleet), incl. West Cottingwith [Yorks. Inqs. I:10,
?IPM of her sister Agatha Trussebut[12]; also VCH East Riding
?III:112-120[13]]
on pilgrimage to Santiago del Compostela, 1252[1]
'Will'm de Ros', knight
? ?Arms: ?' Gules three water bougets argent ' [ H S London,
?Rolls of Arms, Henry III, Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries,
?London, 1967 - ca. 1252 or later, B 66 ][14]
Spouse: ? ?Lucy 'filia Piers'
Death: ? ? aft 1265[5]
Father: ? ?Piers fitz Herbert, of Blaen Llyfni (->1235)
Mother: ? ?Alice fitz Roger
? 'she is said by Dugdale ... to have been da. of "Reginald Fitz-piers of
? Blewbeny in Wales". ?If she belonged to this family, she was presumably
? ... da. of Piers FitzHerbert, lords of the Honour of Brecknock, whose
? castle was at Blaenllyfni.'
Do you have any firmer sources for this ancestry?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
John P. Ravilious
2007-03-23 02:42:07 UTC
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-03-23 11:46:45 UTC
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Dear Rosie (and Tim),
Thanks for that very interesting post, Rosie. Very interesting
to see the association of the Brothers de Ros with their (evident)
uncle Reginald, esp. with regard to Wyverthorpe (mod. Weaverthorpe).
Tim, while the later documents cited deal with the advowson, I
believe the earliest text I provided dealt with the manors of
Wyverthorpe, as well as Londesbrough. From Monasticon Anglicanum, I
cited a grant, 1109x1119, by Thomas, Archbishop of York to 'Lord
Herbert the Chamberlain, and his son in fee Londesbrough, with
Tolthorp, Wiverthorpe, ....' ["Thomas Dei gratia Eboracensis
archiepiscopus,.... Notum vobis facio, quod ego dedi domino Herberto
Camerario, et filio ejus, in feodum Laundesbrough, cum Tolethorpe,
Wiverthorpe, ...."] [1].
The ongoing connection between the FitzHerberts and Wyverthorpe,
beyond the 'mere' advowson, is shown in the IPM of Reginald Fitz Peter
(taken at Whitton, 30 May 1286). This notes in part,
" The said Reginald held at Wyverthorpe of the Archbishop by
knight's service _____ worth by the year with herbage 4s. There are
in demesne 24 bovates of land (at 10s.), and a pasture called Burrehou
worth 30s. a year.
Sum, L13 14s.
In bondage 12 bovates (at 10s.). Sum, L6.
Fifteen cottages are worth by the year 10s.
A certain oven is worth 3s. a year; and a free farm worth 36s. 9
1/2d.
Sum total of Wyverthorpe, L23 3s. 9 1/2d. " [2]
A little further along, an extent taken on 26 July 1286 states in
part, concerning Londesbrough,
" Moreover Reginald Fitz Peter died seised of the advowson of the
church of Lounesborg' which church is worth 50 marcs a year, and the
advowson of the church of St. John in York, which is not sufficient
for the support of a chaplain yearly.
Besides, William de Ros of Ingmanthorpe and Joan his wife hold in
chief in Lavynton in the county of Lincoln one knight's fee which
appertains to the land of Wychton and Lounesborg' in the county of
York, containing 20 carucates of land, and worth 40 marks a year; and
Simon de Dryby holds the said land of the said William." [3]
This is of some interest, as it shows a connection of de Ros and
FitzHerbert with regard to Londesbrough. William de Ros was third son
(so it appears) of William de Ros of Helmsley by Lucy, evidently
sister of Reginald fitz Piers (fitz Herbert).
Many for all the above and the preceding accounts.

I am quite happy to insert Lucy as the daughter of Piers fitz Herbert
(which is where we started) as the balance of probabilities is very high
that this is correct. But the use of 'so it appears' and 'it is evident
that' leaves this doubting Thomas with the inevitable slight doubt and
so I will be including a word of caution in my notes.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Rosie Bevan
2007-03-23 03:49:41 UTC
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Dear Tim

If you follow the text of charter CIX to St Peter's York, which John
presented as evidence, Archbishop Thomas gave Herbert the chamberlain
and his son, in fee, Londesborough, Tolthorpe, Weaverthorpe,
Helperthorpe as well as other parcels of land, which combined to
represent the 3 knights fees recorded in the carta of 1166, then held
by Herbert fitz Herbert of the Archbishop of York [Red Book of the
Exchequer, p.413]. A church at Weaversthorpe is not mentioned in the
gift and more than likely was founded later, as one is not mentioned
in Weaversthorpe in the Domesday Book either.

It certainly existed by 1123-26 when Henry I confirmed the gift of
Herbert fitz Herbert and William, treasurer of York, his brother, of
the church of Weaverthorpe to St Oswald (Nostell priory) [Regesta
Regum Anglo-Normannorum, v.2 p.234]. Henry II also confirmed the gift
of "ecclesiam de Wivertorp cum omnibus eidem ecclesiae
pertinentibus"[MA 6:1, p.94]

Charter (CX) shows king Stephen confirming his chaplain William fitz
Herbert, treasurer of York, in the gift of the churches of
Weaverthorpe, Londesborough, Clere with their chapels, and the church
of Stanton, all of which William's father, Herbert the Chamberlain,
and William's brother, Herbert fitz Herbert, had given William to be
held of their fee. After his death the churches would have reverted to
his heir i.e. his nephew Herbert.

This right to the advowson to Weaverthorpe would have descended to
Herbert's grandson, Reginald fitz Piers, as lord of the three knights'
fees, which included the manor of Weaverthorpe, held of the Archbishop
of York. The final concord (CXIII) records the prior of Nostell
quitclaiming his right to the advowson of Weaverthorpe to Reginald. In
return Reginald gave the advowson to the deanery of York (to which St
Peter's was attached) to be held of himself and his successors.

In the charter by which Reginald fitz Piers confirms the grant he uses
the word 'advocatio'. By using the term advowson I was giving the
literal translation of this word. As you say this was the right to
appoint a person to the benefice, for with the living came other
appurtenances of the church - land which the priest used to support
himself, and first fruits and the tithe, which was a tax or levy of a
tenth of parishioners' income or produce to support the church. Other
assets might include mills or fisheries.

I don't think there is any doubt that the church of Weaverthorpe
descended with the estate that included the manor of Weaverthorpe, in
the whole fee which the fitz Herberts held from the Archbishop of
York.

I hope this explanation satisfies your query.

Cheers

Rosie
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2007-03-23 11:47:00 UTC
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Post by John P. Ravilious
Dear Tim
If you follow the text of charter CIX to St Peter's York, which John
presented as evidence, Archbishop Thomas gave Herbert the chamberlain
and his son, in fee, Londesborough, Tolthorpe, Weaverthorpe,
Helperthorpe as well as other parcels of land, which combined to
represent the 3 knights fees recorded in the carta of 1166, then held
by Herbert fitz Herbert of the Archbishop of York [Red Book of the
Exchequer, p.413]. A church at Weaversthorpe is not mentioned in the
gift and more than likely was founded later, as one is not mentioned
in Weaversthorpe in the Domesday Book either.
It certainly existed by 1123-26 when Henry I confirmed the gift of
Herbert fitz Herbert and William, treasurer of York, his brother, of
the church of Weaverthorpe to St Oswald (Nostell priory) [Regesta
Regum Anglo-Normannorum, v.2 p.234]. Henry II also confirmed the gift
of "ecclesiam de Wivertorp cum omnibus eidem ecclesiae
pertinentibus"[MA 6:1, p.94]
Charter (CX) shows king Stephen confirming his chaplain William fitz
Herbert, treasurer of York, in the gift of the churches of
Weaverthorpe, Londesborough, Clere with their chapels, and the church
of Stanton, all of which William's father, Herbert the Chamberlain,
and William's brother, Herbert fitz Herbert, had given William to be
held of their fee. After his death the churches would have reverted to
his heir i.e. his nephew Herbert.
This right to the advowson to Weaverthorpe would have descended to
Herbert's grandson, Reginald fitz Piers, as lord of the three knights'
fees, which included the manor of Weaverthorpe, held of the Archbishop
of York. The final concord (CXIII) records the prior of Nostell
quitclaiming his right to the advowson of Weaverthorpe to Reginald. In
return Reginald gave the advowson to the deanery of York (to which St
Peter's was attached) to be held of himself and his successors.
In the charter by which Reginald fitz Piers confirms the grant he uses
the word 'advocatio'. By using the term advowson I was giving the
literal translation of this word. As you say this was the right to
appoint a person to the benefice, for with the living came other
appurtenances of the church - land which the priest used to support
himself, and first fruits and the tithe, which was a tax or levy of a
tenth of parishioners' income or produce to support the church. Other
assets might include mills or fisheries.
I don't think there is any doubt that the church of Weaverthorpe
descended with the estate that included the manor of Weaverthorpe, in
the whole fee which the fitz Herberts held from the Archbishop of
York.
I hope this explanation satisfies your query.
Many thanks. I am quite happy to insert Lucy as the daughter of Piers
fitz Herbert (which is where we started) as the balance of probabilities
is very high that this is correct. But the use of 'don't think there is
any doubt' leaves this doubting Thomas with the inevitable slight doubt
and so I will be including a word of caution in my notes.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
John Watson
2007-03-18 23:52:28 UTC
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On Mar 19, 6:24 am, "John P. Ravilious" <***@aol.com> wrote:

1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Robert de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: 17 May 1285[5]
Burial: Kirkham[1]

His body may have been in Kirkham Priory, but his guts were in
Belvoir:

'Robertus de Roos jacet apud Kyrkham, & viscera ejus ante summum
altare de Beuver, juxta corpus Willielm quarti de Albeneio, ex parte
australi, qui obiit xvi die kalendas Junii anno MCCLXXXV.' [John
Nichols, Additional collections towards the history and antiquities of
the town and county of Leicester, London, 1790, p 1294 - Cartulary of
Belvoir Priory]

But I guess you didn't want to know that !

Regards,

John
John P. Ravilious
2007-03-19 02:01:03 UTC
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Dear John,

Thanks for that.

No detail is too small in genealogy. Too gory, yes, but not too
small.

Cheers,

John
Post by John Watson
1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Robert de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: 17 May 1285[5]
Burial: Kirkham[1]
His body may have been in Kirkham Priory, but his guts were in
'Robertus de Roos jacet apud Kyrkham, & viscera ejus ante summum
altare de Beuver, juxta corpus Willielm quarti de Albeneio, ex parte
australi, qui obiit xvi die kalendas Junii anno MCCLXXXV.' [John
Nichols, Additional collections towards the history and antiquities of
the town and county of Leicester, London, 1790, p 1294 - Cartulary of
Belvoir Priory]
But I guess you didn't want to know that !
Regards,
John
m***@btinternet.com
2007-03-18 22:52:03 UTC
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Dear Michael,
On the subject of the origin of the name de Ros (or de Roos), I
am certain that Dugdale had the deriviation turned around. The name
de Ros derives from the Norman origin of the family, most likely after
the vill or manor of Rots near Caen.
Dear John

For what it is worth, VCH Yorkshire (East Riding), Vol 7, sub Roos
(published 2002) says:

Roos was for long held in demesne by the Ros or Roos family, which is
believed to have been named from its estate there. The first known
member was Peter de Ros (probably d. by 1130), whose son Robert
succeeded c. 1158 to Helmsley (Yorks. N.R.); the family took the title
Baron Ros of Helmsley in the late 13th century. (fn. 14) The estate in
Roos was mentioned in 1202, when another Robert de Ros held land there
of Herbert de St. Quintin. (fn. 15) At the death of Robert's grandson
Robert in 1285 it was described as the manor of ROOS.

From: 'Middle division: Roos', A History of the County of York East
Riding: Volume 7: Holderness Wapentake, Middle and North Divisions
(2002), pp. 83-95. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=16130.
Date accessed: 18 March 2007.

Not sure whether this muddies the waters! I'll go through your very
kind posting with details of the family tomorrow when I have some
time.

Best wishes, Michael
StephenP
2007-03-19 09:28:52 UTC
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It would appear that the title Baron de Ros has "left" the de Ros
name;

Peter Trevor Maxwell, BARON DE ROS, Heir of Georgiana Angela Ross,
Baroness de Ros.
Arms;
Quarterly 1st & 4th Argent a saltire Gules (for Fitzgerald) 2nd & 3rd
Gules three water bougets Argent (for de Ros).
(Debretts Perrage & Baronetage 1990)

http://heraldry-online.org.uk/maxwell/maxwell-arms.htm

Yours aye

Stephen
StephenP
2007-03-18 08:54:45 UTC
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Post by m***@btinternet.com
I took a couple of photographs which I am happy to email to anyone
who might be interested.
Michael Andrews-Reading
Michael

Yes please.

Yours aye

Stephen
Tim Cartmell
2007-03-20 02:20:00 UTC
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Dear John P. Ravilious,

Regarding your March 18, 2007 posting of the de Ros/Roos of Yorkshire, I also have an interest in this family as my ancestry would be through the following daughters if they are indeed proven lines.

Firstly, I have in my records an Alice de Ros, who is stated as being the daughter of Everand, Baron de Ros, she was the wife of William de Percy, 3rd Baron Percy in Yorkshire. They were supposedly the parents of William de Percy, lord of Topcliffe in Yorkshire. Source, A History of the House of Percy, by Gerald Brenan, published 1902. Can this be further confirmed? Gerald Brenan's publication lacked citation of primary sources.

Secondly, In 2005 Brendan Wilson posted to SMG that Sir Gervasius (or Geoffrey) de Lowther, Knt. of Lowther in Westmorland (mentioned 1217) married a daughter of de Ros, Baron of Kendal. Source, Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire and West Riding, by Joseph Foster, published 1874. Is there any substance for this family connection?

Thirdly, Sir Thomas de Musgrave, Knt. of Hartley in Westmorland (d:1385) married Margaret de Ros of Youlton in Yorkshire. Could you tell me if this Margaret is descended from the Sir Alexander de Ros of Yolton, son of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley in Holderness of your post?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Timothy J. Cartmell

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John P. Ravilious
2007-03-21 03:12:01 UTC
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Dear Tim,

Thanks for your query re: the de Ros family. My comments and/or
relevant documentation are interspersed below, following the
individual identifications you cited.
Post by Tim Cartmell
Dear John P. Ravilious,
Regarding your March 18, 2007 posting of the de Ros/Roos of Yorkshire, I also have an interest in this family as my ancestry would be through the following daughters if they are indeed proven lines.
Firstly, I have in my records an Alice de Ros, who is stated as being the daughter of Everand, Baron de Ros, she was the wife of William de Percy, 3rd Baron Percy in Yorkshire. They were supposedly the parents of William de Percy, lord of Topcliffe in Yorkshire. Source, A History of the House of Percy, by Gerald Brenan, published 1902. Can this be further confirmed? Gerald Brenan's publication lacked citation of primary sources.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I see no reference to such a marriage, and certainly see no such
Ros ancestry for the early generations of the Percy family. The third
Percy shown as holding Topcliffe was William de Perci or Percy (d.
1175), whose wife was Alice. She was, however, identified by Round as
'Adelidis de Tunbridge', citing charters of Salley Abbey in Monasticon
Anglicanum (V:512-3). Round identified her as a daughter of Gilbert
de Clare; she is identified in Complete Peerage (X:441, note, in the
Percy article) as a daughter of Richard de Clare (d. 1136) by Adeliza
of Chester. I concur in this identification in CP
Post by Tim Cartmell
Secondly, In 2005 Brendan Wilson posted to SMG that Sir Gervasius (or Geoffrey) de Lowther, Knt. of Lowther in Westmorland (mentioned 1217) married a daughter of de Ros, Baron of Kendal. Source, Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire and West Riding, by Joseph Foster, published 1874. Is there any substance for this family connection?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I see nothing in my notes about the connection. While there
certainly might be a Lowther-de Ros marriage, the chronology is a
problem as given. Margaret de Brus, sister and coheiress of the last
de Brus lord of Kendal, likely married Robert de Ros of Wark say
1240-1250, so it seems unlikely a son in law of theirs would have been
active in 1217.
Post by Tim Cartmell
Thirdly, Sir Thomas de Musgrave, Knt. of Hartley in Westmorland (d:1385) married Margaret de Ros of Youlton in Yorkshire. Could you tell me if this Margaret is descended from the Sir Alexander de Ros of Yolton, son of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley in Holderness of your post?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This link is valid. Sir Alexander de Ros of Yolton, co. Yorks.
was succeeded by his son Sir William. Sir William's daughter and heir
was Margaret, whom you identify above.
Post by Tim Cartmell
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Timothy J. Cartmell
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I hope the foregoing is of use.

Cheers,

John
Post by Tim Cartmell
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b***@gmail.com
2017-06-06 06:18:12 UTC
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Please send. Thanks. R.DeRoos

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