Anglo-Saxon kings in England

[Leo van de Pas]

From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England. Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex) whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex)
whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?
>>


Many people have ancestral lines to Edward I, King of England
Edward himself has an ancestor King Edmund of England 1016
This Edmund has an ancestor King Edmund of England 941-946
This Edmund has an ancestor King Aethulwulf of Wessex 839-55
This Aethulwulf has an ancestor Under-King Ealhmund of Kent d 786
The Ealhmund has an ancestor Prince Ingild of Wessex d 718
This Ingild has an ancestor Ceawlin, King of Wessex
son of Cynric King of Wessex
son of Crioda Prince of Wessex
son of Cerdic King of Wessex d 534

which then goes back to Odin eventually

Will Johnson

[Leo van de Pas]

Dear Will,

I asked to ignore the House of Wessex as they are known, and the question is
about descendants not ancestors.

Thanks for responding.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


> In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ***@netspeed.com.au writes:
>
> << From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
> Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of
> Wessex)
> whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the
> present?
>>>
>
>
> Many people have ancestral lines to Edward I, King of England
> Edward himself has an ancestor King Edmund of England 1016
> This Edmund has an ancestor King Edmund of England 941-946
> This Edmund has an ancestor King Aethulwulf of Wessex 839-55
> This Aethulwulf has an ancestor Under-King Ealhmund of Kent d 786
> The Ealhmund has an ancestor Prince Ingild of Wessex d 718
> This Ingild has an ancestor Ceawlin, King of Wessex
> son of Cynric King of Wessex
> son of Crioda Prince of Wessex
> son of Cerdic King of Wessex d 534
>
> which then goes back to Odin eventually
>
> Will Johnson
>

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/24/06 3:13:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ***@aol.com
writes:

<< In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex)
whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the
present?
>> >>

Okay!! so my mind glossed over the part where Leo says "except the house of
Wessex..." so anyway...

Okay Leo I have that Edward King of England 901-24 was also a great-grandson
of Coenwulf, King of Mercia.
And Edward was a grandson of Ethelred of Mucel, Ealdorman of the Gainas
(which isn't Wessex either)
And his 2nd great-grandfather was actually the underking of Kent (which isn't
Wessex) :)

I wonder if Ealdorman Ordgar of Devonshire has any connection back to any of
these royal houses?

Then you have also Morcar of Northumbria, grandfather of Edward "Atheling" d
1057

Will Johnson

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| In a message dated 5/24/06 3:13:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ***@aol.com
| writes:
|
| << In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
| ***@netspeed.com.au writes:
|
| << From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
| Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex)
| whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the
| present?
| >> >>
|
| I have that Edward King of England 901-24 was also a great-grandson
| of Coenwulf, King of Mercia.
| And Edward was a grandson of Ethelred of Mucel, Ealdorman of the Gainas
| (which isn't Wessex either)
| And his 2nd great-grandfather was actually the underking of Kent (which isn't
| Wessex) :)
|
| I wonder if Ealdorman Ordgar of Devonshire has any connection back to any of
| these royal houses?
|


IIRC, Ordgar is positted as a collateral of the Gewissi, (i.e., the royal house of Wessex).



| Then you have also Morcar of Northumbria, grandfather of Edward "Atheling" d
| 1057
|
| Will Johnson
|

[Todd A. Farmerie]

***@aol.com wrote:

> Okay Leo I have that Edward King of England 901-24 was also a great-grandson
> of Coenwulf, King of Mercia.

His grandmother is said by historical sources to be a Mercian royal, but
no precise connection is given. Further, (as with Wessex before
Ecgbert) the Mercian succession had fallen into a chaos of individuals
of unrecorded or dubious connections to the historical dynasty, or
outright usurpers, making it all the harder to rationalize any specific
connection.

> I wonder if Ealdorman Ordgar of Devonshire has any connection back to any of
> these royal houses?

It has been speculated that many of the Wessex Ealdormen were derived
from one or another of these royal clans brought into the Wessex power
structure at the highest level, but to go from there to saying that a
specific Ealdorman did . . . .

> Then you have also Morcar of Northumbria, grandfather of Edward "Atheling" d
> 1057

That Morcar was father of Edward AEtheling is again speculative, based
on a sequence of identifications of individuals in various sources, but
far from certain.

taf

[Chris Bennett]

Leo --

There are two proposals I know of, both of which have descents to later
times only by virtue of their connections to the house of Wessex.

1) David Kelley suggested that Ealhmund father of Egbert was the same as
Ealhmund king of Kent and descended from the Kentish royal line (which
includes some Egberts). If true this could also provide a Merovingian
descent line

2) Alfred's wife Ealhswith is said to have been of Mercian royal descent.
What this consists of is unknown, at one point I was circling around a
possible descent from Coenwulf, king of Mercia, who was only distantly
related to the previous royal line (if the genealogy given in the ASC is
even genuine).

Chris



""Leo van de Pas"" <***@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000c01c67f7d$f4e5d3a0$***@Toshiba...
> From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
> Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of
> Wessex) whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably
> to the present?
>
> With many thanks
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
>

[p***@gmail.com]

David Williamson (Kings & Queens of Britain) has a number of guesses:

He imagined that Ealhmund, King of Kent, married a daughter of
Aethelbert II, King of Kent.

Also, that Ealhswith (wife of Alfred the Great) was the daughter of
Eadburga, herself daughter of Wigmund (son Wiglaf, King of Mercia) and
Elfleda (daughter of Ceolwulf I, King of Mercia).

[Todd A. Farmerie]

***@gmail.com wrote:
> David Williamson (Kings & Queens of Britain) has a number of guesses:
>
> He imagined that Ealhmund, King of Kent, married a daughter of
> Aethelbert II, King of Kent.
>
> Also, that Ealhswith (wife of Alfred the Great) was the daughter of
> Eadburga, herself daughter of Wigmund (son Wiglaf, King of Mercia) and
> Elfleda (daughter of Ceolwulf I, King of Mercia).

Eadburga was daughter of some Mercian - there is no evidence to suggest
which. This appears to be an attempt at two Mercian Kings for the price
of one. I wonder what his source is for these Wigmund and Elfleda.

taf

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <***@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| ***@gmail.com wrote:
| > David Williamson (Kings & Queens of Britain) has a number of guesses:
| >
| > He imagined that Ealhmund, King of Kent, married a daughter of
| > Aethelbert II, King of Kent.
| >
| > Also, that Ealhswith (wife of Alfred the Great) was the daughter of
| > Eadburga, herself daughter of Wigmund (son Wiglaf, King of Mercia) and
| > Elfleda (daughter of Ceolwulf I, King of Mercia).
|
| Eadburga was daughter of some Mercian - there is no evidence to suggest
| which. This appears to be an attempt at two Mercian Kings for the price
| of one. I wonder what his source is for these Wigmund and Elfleda.
|
| taf

Since the gracious gentleman is deceased, we may never know for sure. I know that he relied on Searle; but we should have to check his bibliography beyond that.
Ford

[p***@gmail.com]

Wigmund, son of Wiglaf, is in Searle "Anglo-Saxon Bishops, Kings and
Nobles" (1899), page 298. Searle cites sources, and in this
particular case Wigmund filius Regis comes from
http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=get&type=charter&id=188

The marriage of Wigmund to Ælfflæd comes from Chronicon Abbatiae de
Evesham.

Eadburh as daughter of Wigmund and Ælfflæd is marked by Williamson as
"conjectural", which I take to mean that it was his own conjecture,
so further research through his bibliography is likely to prove
fruitless, but the connexion was probably inspired by a charter that
mentions Ealhswith's brother Æthelwulf:

http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1442

[Todd A. Farmerie]

***@gmail.com wrote:
> Eadburh as daughter of Wigmund and Ælfflæd is marked by Williamson as
> "conjectural", which I take to mean that it was his own conjecture,
> so further research through his bibliography is likely to prove
> fruitless, but the connexion was probably inspired by a charter that
> mentions Ealhswith's brother Æthelwulf:

We see a lot of this type of conjecture, but I don't know that naming an
Anglo-Saxon child after a maternal uncle was all that common.

taf

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

Provable, every step of the way? No. Definite descents, with gaps, yes. Mercia and Northumbria. Probable? Well...
I should suggest that you check out my piece in _Foundations_, Vol. 1, no. 6, 'Anglo-Saxon Aristocracy: Tracing lineages', pp. 404-413. Last that I checked, it had not made it to the list of subscribers' publications, here.
Ford
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <***@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 7:03 PM
Subject: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England. Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex) whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?
|
| With many thanks
| Leo van de Pas
| Canberra, Australia
|
|

[Renia]

Leo van de Pas wrote:

> From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England. Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex) whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?
>
> With many thanks
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia

This little bit is from The Anglo-Saxons by D.M. Wilson, Thames &
Hudson, London, 1960. (Spellings may differ from modern versions.)

King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert.

Wulf of Wessex's successor was Aethelbald. King Offa of Mercia (757-796)
was cousin to the same Aethelbald. Cenwulf (died 821) succeeded Offa in
1796.

King Anna, Christian, died in 654, buried at Blythburgh. Predecessors
were joint kings who died about 640.
King Aethelhere, Pagan but lapsed Christian, died a hero in 655 after a
short reign
King Aethelwald, Christian, died in battle in 663/4. His body was lost
in the flood waters of the Winwaed. His successor died 713.

Queen Aelfflaed died before 916, married King Aethelstan before about
934. He died in 939.

Atheling Athelstan's will in 1015 mentioned "to my brother Edmund I
grant the sword which belonged to King Offa".

King Canute ascended the English throne in 1016 and reigned for 19
years. Harthacanute, his son, died 1042.

[Renia]

Leo van de Pas wrote:

> From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England. Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex) whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?
>
> With many thanks
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
>

This is from the INDEX to The Ecclesiastical Hitory of the English
Nation & The lives of St Cuthbert & the Abbots, by the Venerable Bede,
Everyman's Library, Dent, London, 1965 (first printed 1910). If you want
me to look up any of them, I will, but when I return from England next week.

Acha, sister of Edwin, King of Northumbria
Addi, earl
Aedan, King of the Scots
Aella, King of the Deirans
Alaric, King of the Goths
Aldgist, King of the Frisians
Adhulf, King of the East Angles
Aldwulf, King of the Wast Angles
Alfrid, King of Northumbria
Alric, King of Kent
Anna,King of the East Angles
Attila, King of the Huns
Atwald, King of Wight
Baldhilda, Queen
Bebba, Queen
Beort, Northumbrian general
Bertfrid, Earl
Bertha, wife of Ethelbert I, King of Kent
Berthun, general of Wessex
Blecca, Governor of Lincoln
Bledla, King of the Huns
Blithryda, wife of Pepin d'Heristal
Bridius, King of the Picts
Cadwalla, 'King of the Britons'
Caedwalla, King of Wessex
Caerl, King of Mercia
Celin (Ceawlin), King of Wessex and Bretwalda
Ceolwulh, King of Northumbria
Cerdic, King of the Britons
Clovis, King of Neustria
Coelred, King of Mercia
Coenred, King of Mercia
Coenred, King of Nurthumbria
Coinwalch (Conwaldh), son of Cynegils, King of Wessex
Cuichelm, King of Wessex
Cyneberga, daughter of Penda, King of Mercia
Cynegils, King of Wessex
Cynewise, Queen of Merica
Dagobert, King of the Franks
Eadbald, King of Kent
Eadbert, King of Kent
Eadfrid, son of Edwin, King of Northumbria
Eanfleda, Edwin's daughter, wife of King Oswy
Eanfrid, brother of Eanher
Eanfrid, son of Edwin, King of Northumbria
Eanfrid, son of Ethelfrid
Eanher, King of the South Saxons
Earconbert, King of Kent
Earcongota, daughter of King Earconbert
Ebba, Queen of Sussex
Ecgric, King of the East Angles
Edric, King of Kent
Edwin, King of Northumbria and Bretwalda
Egbert I, King of Kent
Egfrid, King of Northumbria
Elfleda (Aelflaed) abbess of Whitby, daughter of King Oswy
Elfric, Uncle of King Edwin
Elfwin, brother of King Egfrid
Elli, King of the South Saxons and Bretwalda
Eni, father of King Anna
Eorpwald, King of the East Angles
Ethelbald, King of Mercia
Ethelberga, bastard daughter of King Anna
Ethelberga (Tate) wife of King Edwin
Ethelbert I, King of Kent and Bretwalda
Ethelbert II, King of Kent
Etheldrid, Queen
Etheldrida, wife of King Egfrid and abbess of Ely
Etheldrith, daughter of Ethelhun
Ethelfrid, King of Mercia
Ethelfrid, King of Nurthumbria
Ethelhere, King of the East Angles
Ethelhun, son of King Ethelbert I
Ethelred, Kin of Mercia
Ethelwalch, King of the South Saxons
Ethelwald, King of the East Angles
Ethelwald, son of King Oswald
Ethelwald, under King of Deira
Ethilwin, commander of the Northumbrians under King Oswy
Hereric, father of St Hilda
Hildemer 'prefect' (i.e. Ealdorman) of King Egfrid
Hunwald, Earl
Ida, King of Northumbria
Iffi, son of Osfrid and grandson of King Edwin
Ina, King of Wessex
Irminric (Eormenric), father of King Ethelbert I of Kent
Kenwalk, King of Wessex (see Coinwalch)
Lothere, King of Kent
Lucius, King of the Britons
Meilochan, father of King Bridius
Naitan (Nechtan), King of the Picts
Octa, grandfather of King Ethelbert I of Kent
Offa, son of Sighere, King of the East Angles
Orric (Oisc), father of Octa
Osfrid, son of King Edwin
Osred, King of Northumbria
Osric, King of Deira
Osric, King of Northumbria
Osthrida, wife of King Ethelred of Mercia
Oswald, King of Northumbria and Bretwalda
Oswin, son of Osric of Deira
Oswy (oswiu), King of Northumbria and Bretwalda
Peada, King of the Middle Angles
Penda, King of Mercia
Pepin d'Heristal
Quenberga, concubine of King Edwin
Rathbed, King of Friesland
Redwald, King of the East Angles and Bretwalda
Regnherc, son of King Redwald
Ricula, sister of King Ethelbert, mother of King Sabert
Sabert (Sebert, Saba), King of the East Saxons
Sebbi, King of the East Saxons
Sethrid, stepdaughter of King Anna
Sexbald, King of the East Saxons
Sexberga (Seaxburh), abbess, formerly wife of King Earconbert
Sigebirt (Sigebeorht) I, King of the East Angles
Sigebirt (Sigebeorht) II, King of the East Angles
Sighard, King of the East Angles
Sighere, King of the East Angles
Suebhard, King of Kent
Suefred, King of the East Angles
Suidhelm, King of the East Angles
Theodbald, brother of King Ethelfrid of Northumbria
Tonbert, chief of the S. Girvii
Tytilus, father of King Redwald
Uuffa, father of Tytilus
Vecta, grandfather of Hengist and Horsa (commanders)
Victgilsus, father of Hengist and Horsa
Vortigern, King of the Britons
Wictred (Wihtred), King of Kent
Woden, father of Vecta
Wulfhere, King of Mercia
Wuscfrea, son of King Edwin

Heresuid, mother of King Aldwulf and sister of St Hilda

[p***@gmail.com]

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.

Vecta is the Isle of Wight, and that isn't the grandfather of anybody.

Unfortunately, Anglo-Saxon genealogies are full of falsehoods.

[Renia]

***@gmail.com wrote:
> Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
>
> Vecta is the Isle of Wight, and that isn't the grandfather of anybody.
>
> Unfortunately, Anglo-Saxon genealogies are full of falsehoods.

I only quoted the index to Bede.

My edition of Bede, page 23, says the following:

From the Angles, that is, the country which is called Anglia, and which
is said, from that time, to remain desert to this day, between the
provinces of the Jutes and the Saxons, are descended the East-Angles,
the Midland-Angles, Mercians, all the race of the Northumbrians, that
is, of those nations that dwell on the north side of the river Humber,
and the other nations of the English.

The two first commanders are said to have been Hengist and Horsa. Of
whom Horsa, being afterwards slain in battle by the Britons, was buried
in the eastern parts of Kent, where a monument, bearing his name, is
still inexistence. They were the sons of Victgilsus, whose father was
Vecta, son of Woden; from whose stock the royal race of many provinces
deduce their original.

And on page 73:

This Ethelbert was the son of Irminric, whose father was Octa, whose
father was Orrice, sunamed Oisc, from twhom the kings of Kent are wont
to be called Oiscings. His father was Hengist, who, being invited by
Vortigern, first came into Britain, with his son Oisc, as has been said
above.

[p***@gmail.com]

A good starting point for the Anglo-Saxon genealogies is W. G. Searle
"Anglo-Saxon Bishops, Kings and Nobles" (1899). The genealogies occupy
pages 247 to 464, and sources are cited for every relationship.

There are many difficulties. The sources for the period include forged
charters and fabricated chronicles.

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>

I don't show any descendents of this couple.
One daughter Aethelburh, Queen of /Northumbria/ married
Edwin, King of Deira 593-606, King of /Northumbria/ 616-633

but I don't show any children. If someone has children to them, I'd like to
know

A son of Aethelbert and Bertha
Eadbald, King of /Kent/ 616-640
married Emma, Princess of /Austrasia/
and had at least one child
Earconbert, King of /Kent/ 640-

but again I'm not showing any further descendents.

Will Johnson

[Doug McDonald]

***@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
>
> << King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
> daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
>
> I don't show any descendents of this couple.


Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of
Northumbria in his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And
that, of course, leads to a vast multitude.

This is "for what it's worth" of course.

Doug McDonald

[David Teague]

Could anyone give an outline of this lineage?

Thanks in advance,

David Teague


>From: Doug McDonald <***@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
>To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:53 -0500
>
>***@aol.com wrote:
>>In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>>***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
>>
>><< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
>>daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
>>
>>I don't show any descendents of this couple.
>
>
>Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of Northumbria in
>his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And that, of course, leads to a vast
>multitude.
>
>This is "for what it's worth" of course.
>
>Doug McDonald
>

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Teague" <***@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Could anyone give an outline of this lineage?
|
| Thanks in advance,
|
| David Teague
|
|
| >From: Doug McDonald <***@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
| >To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
| >Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| >Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:53 -0500
| >
| >***@aol.com wrote:
| >>In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
| >>***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
| >>
| >><< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
| >>daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
| >>
| >>I don't show any descendents of this couple.
| >
| >
| >Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of Northumbria in
| >his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And that, of course, leads to a vast
| >multitude.
| >
| >This is "for what it's worth" of course.
| >
| >Doug McDonald
| >

Ecgfrith Ailguin, K. Northumbria 670-685, m. 2ndly, Eormenburga, dt. of Eormenread, K. Kent. They had, (THIN LINE)

Eadwulf I, K. Northumbria 704-705, father of

Earnwine, father of

Eanwulf, father of

Eardwulf I, K. Northumbria 796-806, & 808, father of

Eanread, K. Northumbria 808-840, father of

Æðelread II, K. Northumbria 840-848, father of

Ecgbeorht II, K. Northumbria 876-878/888, father of

Eadwulf II, K. Northumbria 878/888-912/913, father of

Ealdread, Ealdorman of Northumbria, fl. 923-927, father of

Oswulf I, Ealdorman of Northumbria 947-954, father of

Waltheof I, Ealdorman of Northumbria ca. 954-969

The latter generations are from Searle, ASBKN. For the continuity see my article in _Foundations_, mentioned in an earlier post.
Respectfully,
Ford

[David Teague]

Ford,

Thank you very much.

David Teague


>From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <***@Cox.net>
>To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 03:49:51 -0300
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Teague" <***@hotmail.com>
>To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:42 AM
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>
>
>| Could anyone give an outline of this lineage?
>|
>| Thanks in advance,
>|
>| David Teague
>|
>|
>| >From: Doug McDonald <***@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
>| >To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
>| >Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>| >Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:53 -0500
>| >
>| >***@aol.com wrote:
>| >>In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>| >>***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
>| >>
>| >><< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
>| >>daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
>| >>
>| >>I don't show any descendents of this couple.
>| >
>| >
>| >Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of Northumbria in
>| >his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And that, of course, leads to a
>vast
>| >multitude.
>| >
>| >This is "for what it's worth" of course.
>| >
>| >Doug McDonald
>| >
>
>Ecgfrith Ailguin, K. Northumbria 670-685, m. 2ndly, Eormenburga, dt. of
>Eormenread, K. Kent. They had, (THIN LINE)
>
>Eadwulf I, K. Northumbria 704-705, father of
>
>Earnwine, father of
>
>Eanwulf, father of
>
>Eardwulf I, K. Northumbria 796-806, & 808, father of
>
>Eanread, K. Northumbria 808-840, father of
>
>Æðelread II, K. Northumbria 840-848, father of
>
>Ecgbeorht II, K. Northumbria 876-878/888, father of
>
>Eadwulf II, K. Northumbria 878/888-912/913, father of
>
>Ealdread, Ealdorman of Northumbria, fl. 923-927, father of
>
>Oswulf I, Ealdorman of Northumbria 947-954, father of
>
>Waltheof I, Ealdorman of Northumbria ca. 954-969
>
>The latter generations are from Searle, ASBKN. For the continuity see my
>article in _Foundations_, mentioned in an earlier post.
>Respectfully,
>Ford
>
>
>

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
| ***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
|
| << King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
| daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
|
| I don't show any descendents of this couple.
| One daughter Aethelburh, Queen of /Northumbria/ married
| Edwin, King of Deira 593-606, King of /Northumbria/ 616-633
|
| but I don't show any children. If someone has children to them, I'd like to
| know
|
| A son of Aethelbert and Bertha
| Eadbald, King of /Kent/ 616-640
| married Emma, Princess of /Austrasia/
| and had at least one child
| Earconbert, King of /Kent/ 640-
|
| but again I'm not showing any further descendents.
|
| Will Johnson

Suggest checking http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Saxon_genealogy/files/. These are primarily what I have been able to piece together. I try to change them if anything new is introduced, or comes to light. But, if no-one shares, nothing gets changed, unless I stumble on it. The group has been kind of quiet, lately; but maybe something will come from this discussion. Personally, I've had other life-issues this past fortnight, and haven't had time to check through all of the posts on this thread.
Any suggestions, changes or updates to the charts are welcome. That's why I drew and posted them.
Ford

[Renia]

***@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
>
> << King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
> daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
>
> I don't show any descendents of this couple.
> One daughter Aethelburh, Queen of /Northumbria/ married
> Edwin, King of Deira 593-606, King of /Northumbria/ 616-633
>
> but I don't show any children. If someone has children to them, I'd like to
> know
>
> A son of Aethelbert and Bertha
> Eadbald, King of /Kent/ 616-640
> married Emma, Princess of /Austrasia/
> and had at least one child
> Earconbert, King of /Kent/ 640-
>
> but again I'm not showing any further descendents.
>
> Will Johnson
>

According to Bede, Ethelbert and Bertha had a son, Eadbald, as you say.

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< King Canute ascended the English throne in 1016 and reigned for 19
years. Harthacanute, his son, died 1042. >>

I'm not sure that Canute has any descendents today
I'm showing three children for him, none of which had themselves any
grandchildren.
Gunhild who m Henry III, HR Emperor had a daughter Beatrice, Abbess of
Quedlimburg, but that's it.

If anyone has descendents from Canute I'd like to hear about them.
Thanks
Will Johnson

[Todd A. Farmerie]

***@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ***@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
>
> << King Canute ascended the English throne in 1016 and reigned for 19
> years. Harthacanute, his son, died 1042. >>
>
> I'm not sure that Canute has any descendents today
> I'm showing three children for him, none of which had themselves any
> grandchildren.
> Gunhild who m Henry III, HR Emperor had a daughter Beatrice, Abbess of
> Quedlimburg, but that's it.
>
> If anyone has descendents from Canute I'd like to hear about them.

The documented children of Canute have no recorded children of their
own. There may have been unrecognized/undocumented children or
grandchildren, but being such, there can be no documented descent.

taf

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
To the best of my knowledge, none of Canute (II) King of
Denmark, England and I believe Norway for a time had four children;by Aelgifu
,Sweyn, King of Norway and Harold I " Harefoot", King of England by Emma of
Normandy Gunnild, 1st wife of Emperor Henry III and Canute III aka Hardecanute,
nominated to succeed his father in Denmark and Norway in 1035. He went to
Denmark to secure the crown and his brother Harold I serving as regent in England.
In 1036/37 Harold despite the wishes of his father approached the Saxon Witan
and had himself elected King of England. Hardicanute enraged set out with a
fleet from Denmark to displace his brother who died in 1040 before the army
reached England and the Witan nominated and elected Hardicanute as king.
Hardicanute taxed England heavily and died in 1042. apparently none of the three sons
of Canute had any issue and his sister Astrid, wife of Ulf Thorkilsson, son
of Thorkils Styrbjornson, a Swedish prince who was married to a daughter of
Canute II`s patralineal grandfather Harald Bluetooth had a son Sweyn who
eventually was recognized as Hardicanute`s successor in Denmark.
See William Seymour " Sovereign Legacy" ( Doubleday (1980) pp 32-33 and "
The Encyclopedia of World History (6th Edition by Peter N Stearns, General
Editor in succession to William L Langer (2001) Genealogical table on p 182.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/26/06 3:06:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ***@aol.com
writes:

<< apparently none of the three sons
of Canute had any issue and his sister Astrid, wife of Ulf Thorkilsson, son
of Thorkils Styrbjornson, a Swedish prince who was married to a daughter of
Canute II`s patralineal grandfather Harald Bluetooth had a son Sweyn who
eventually was recognized as Hardicanute`s successor in Denmark. >>

Is this Sweyn identical to
Sweyn II, King of /Denmark/ 1047-
died Abt 1074

Thanks
Will Johnson

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
According to David Williamson`s Kings and Queens of Britain
Appendix B Table 2 The Kings of Kent
Earconbert, King of Kent ruled to 664 married Sexburga, daughter
of Anna, King of East Anglica and had Egbert I, King of Kent 664-673,
Hlothere, King of Kent 673-685, Earcongota and Eormengild who married King Wulfhere
of Mercia 657-675 (Table 8 Kings of Mercia gives them 3 children, Coenred ,
King of Mercia 704-709, Berhtwald and St Werburga , Abbess of Ely who d abt
700. Egbert I, King of Kent was father (table 2 again) of Eadric, King of Kent
685-686/7 and Wihtred, King of Kent 690-725 who married 1st Cynegyth, by whom
Ethelbert II, King of Kent 725-762. And Eadbert I, King of Kent jointly with
Ethelbert II 725- 748. Wihtred had apparently no children by 2nd wife
Ethelburga and a son Alric who ruled with his half-brothers by 3rd wife Werburga.
Williamson then conjectures that Ethelbert II was the father of Egbert II, King
of Kent abt 765-abt 780, Eadbert II Praen, King of Kent 796-798 and a daughter
married to Ealhmund of Wessex, Sub King of Kent in 784, parents of Egbert,
King of Wessex who shortly after his ascension in 802 also became King of Kent
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Todd A. Farmerie]

***@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Will,
> According to David Williamson`s Kings and Queens of Britain
> Appendix B Table 2 The Kings of Kent
>
> Egbert II, King
> of Kent abt 765-abt 780, Eadbert II Praen, King of Kent 796-798 and a daughter
> married to Ealhmund of Wessex, Sub King of Kent in 784, parents of Egbert,
> King of Wessex who shortly after his ascension in 802 also became King of Kent

Such a daughter is speculative, not documented.

taf

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
Sweyn Ulfson.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ***@aol.com
writes:

<< Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
Sweyn Ulfson. >>

That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
"Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patrynomic (is
that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.

Thanks
Will

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ***@aol.com
| writes:
|
| << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
| Sweyn Ulfson. >>
|
| That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
| "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
| could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patronymic (is
| that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
|
| Thanks
| Will

I think that _THIS_ would be called a 'matronymic'.
Ford

[David Teague]

A matronymic, eh? Rather like the surname Dyson (which apparently derives
from one Dionysia of Linthwaite in Yorkshire, who fl. c. 1300-20).

David Teague


>From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <***@Cox.net>
>To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 03:26:46 -0300
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <***@aol.com>
>To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:27 PM
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>
>
>| In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>***@aol.com
>| writes:
>|
>| << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same
>as
>| Sweyn Ulfson. >>
>|
>| That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
>| "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That
>they
>| could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the
>patronymic (is
>| that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
>|
>| Thanks
>| Will
>
>I think that _THIS_ would be called a 'matronymic'.
>Ford
>

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Teague" <***@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| A matronymic, eh? Rather like the surname Dyson (which apparently derives
| from one Dionysia of Linthwaite in Yorkshire, who fl. c. 1300-20).
|
| David Teague

Yes, rather!
Ford

[p***@gmail.com]

A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
the mother.

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
| the mother.

Is there really such a word as 'matronymic'? And I thought that I coined it for this discussion. Ah well, just another burst bubble in the scrub-pail of life. :o(

[Lisbeth Andersson]

***@gmail.com wrote in news:1148769539.084942.212660@
38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
> the mother.
>

That should be metronymic.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metronymic

English is not a logical language.;-)



Lisbeth.

----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.

*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisbeth Andersson" <***@bredband.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| ***@gmail.com wrote in news:1148769539.084942.212660@
| 38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
|
| > A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
| > the mother.
| >
|
| That should be metronymic.
| http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metronymic
|
| English is not a logical language.;-)
|
|
|
| Lisbeth.
|
| *What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
|

This page says that metronymic is a variant of matronymic.

[Todd A. Farmerie]

***@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ***@aol.com
> writes:
>
> << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
> Sweyn Ulfson. >>
>
> That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
> "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
> could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patrynomic (is
> that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.

The best analogy is King Henry II of England, called Henry Fitz Empress
to highlight his claim, not Henry Fitz Geoffrey.

I know of a few other examples of a matronymic (if you will). Robert
Fitz Wymarch comes immediately to mind. In the Scandinavian world, "the
sons of Lothbrok" which appears on an Orkney monument seems (based on
grammar) to be a reference to their mother, and I have sean it
speculated that Earl Siward's father, Bjorn 'Bearson" might have been
Berasson, Bera being his mother's name (this original prominance of the
mother, and hence lack of knowledge later on of the father, may also
have given rise to the National Enquirer-like story of his beastial
paternity).

taf

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <***@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| ***@aol.com wrote:
| > In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ***@aol.com
| > writes:
| >
| > << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
| > Sweyn Ulfson. >>
| >
| > That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
| > "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
| > could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patrynomic (is
| > that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
|
| The best analogy is King Henry II of England, called Henry Fitz Empress
| to highlight his claim, not Henry Fitz Geoffrey.
|
| I know of a few other examples of a matronymic (if you will). Robert
| Fitz Wymarch comes immediately to mind. In the Scandinavian world, "the
| sons of Lothbrok" which appears on an Orkney monument seems (based on
| grammar) to be a reference to their mother, and I have sean it
| speculated that Earl Siward's father, Bjorn 'Bearson" might have been
| Berasson, Bera being his mother's name (this original prominance of the
| mother, and hence lack of knowledge later on of the father, may also
| have given rise to the National Enquirer-like story of his beastial
| paternity).
|
| taf

Actually, Todd, I think that you mean _The Weekly World News_. They are the ones with 'Bat Boy', 'Lizard Baby', Bigfoot's numerous love-children, the offspring of space-aliens and demon-possessed toilet bowls. Oops! That last one isn't genealogical - but it is just too entertaining to pass-up. Must be a great job to have that requires one go in stoned, drunk and high.

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will,
Apparently so. Since his most direct claim to the Danish
throne lie through his mother Estrith / Astrid they referred to him as the son of
his danish mother rather than his swedish father Ulf. Sweyn II Estrithson was
the son of Estrith Sweynsdattar, daughter of Sweyn I Forkbeard Haraldson.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Leo van de Pas]

We did have Henry FitzEmpress as well.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


> Dear Will,
> Apparently so. Since his most direct claim to the Danish
> throne lie through his mother Estrith / Astrid they referred to him as the
> son of
> his danish mother rather than his swedish father Ulf. Sweyn II Estrithson
> was
> the son of Estrith Sweynsdattar, daughter of Sweyn I Forkbeard Haraldson.
> Sincerely,
> James W
> Cummings
> Dixmont, Maine
> USA
>
>

[M***@aol.com]

Will, I have the following offspring for King Eadbald of Kent (570-640) and
Emma of Austrasia:

King Eormenred of Kent
Spouse: Oslava
Children:
Ethelred of Kent
Ethelbert of Kent
Ermenburga of Kent (married Merewald)

Abbess/Saint Eanswyth of Folkestone

King Earconbert/Erkinbert of Kent (d. 664)
Spouse: Sexburga of East Anglia (dau of King Anna & Saewara)
Children:
King Egbert I of Kent (d. 673)
King Hlothere of Kent (d. 685)
Princess Earcongota
Princess Eormengild (married King Wulfhere of Mercia)
_______________________________

King Egbert I of Kent (d. 673)
Spouse:
Children:
King Eadric of Kent (d. 687)
King Wihtred of Kent (d. 725)

_______________________________

King Wihtred of Kent (d. 725)
Spouse: Aethelburga
Children:
Princess Aethelburga of Wessex (675-718)

_______________________________

Princess Aethelburga
Spouse: Inglid of Wessex, son of Cenred
Children:
Eoppa of Wessex (706-758)
King Aethelheard of Wessex

Etc., etc.

I hope this information is helpful.

Mardi

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Will, Ford, David and Mardi,
If Wihtred, King of
Kent`s daughter Aethelburga is known to be wife of the Aetheling Ingild of Wessex
and she is mother of the Aetheling Eoppa, grandmother of the Aetheling Eafa and
great grandmother of Ealhmund, sub King of Kent, it strikes me as a bit
unlikely that Ealhmund gained his possession in Kent through marriage to his Great
Grandmother`s elder half brother`s daughter (i-e by marrying his
grandfather`s own cousin. So apparently one of these (probably the conjectural daughter
theory) in incorrect.
Sincerely
James
W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
PS Isn`t there a theory that Eoppa and Eafa are the same person ?

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Dear Will, Ford, David and Mardi,
| If Wihtred, King of Kent`s daughter
| Aethelburga is known to be wife of the Aetheling Ingild of | Wessex and she is mother of the Aetheling Eoppa,
| grandmother of the Aetheling Eafa and
| great-grandmother of Ealhmund, sub King of Kent,
| it strikes me as a bit unlikely that Ealhmund gained his possession in Kent through marriage to his Great-
| Grandmother`s elder half-brother`s daughter, (i-e by marrying his
| grandfather`s own cousin. So apparently one of these (probably the conjectural daughter
| theory) in incorrect.
|
| Sincerely,
| James
| W Cummings
|
| Dixmont, Maine USA



Which daughter are you taking as conjectural?

I don't know whence Mardi got her suggestion, but I suspect that is may be from the ¶ under Fig. 2, 'Rulers of Kent', on p. 409, of my aforementioned article in _Foundations_, I:6. I did not name her; and I suggested that she married Eoppa, Ingilding. I opposed this to Dave Kelley's suggestion of a marriage of Æþelbeorht II's daughter to Eahlmund Eaffing. I touched on the supposition that Sigebeorht, King of Wessex, 756-757, was the brother of Sigeread, King of Kent, 759-763; (both being sons of Eoppa Ingilding, and brothers of Eaffa Eopping). Thus this would, I pointed out, explain the apparent earlier link 'twixt Kent & Wessex than would be the case with the later union.
Ingild 'Conrading', I should suggest, wed an East Saxon princess, probably daughter of K. Sæbbi, thus explaing the East Saxon names of the royal brothers. This, I suggest, is only one way in which the East Saxon dynasty, the Æscwingas, continued beyond the amalgam of their kingdom into the greater Anglo-Saxon polity. For others, one could see the suggestions in my article, or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Saxon-Genealogy/files.


| PS Isn`t there a theory that Eoppa and Eafa are the same person ?
|

I have seen the theory. I don't accept it - it wouldn't fit well chronologically, and Eoppa and Eaffa are not similar enough to be a duplication. BUT I have an open mind on't.

Ford

'Don't judge those who try, and fail. Judge only those who fail to try.'

'Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance !'

'The end is what the means have made it.'
--John Morley, Critical Miscellanies

[Stewart Baldwin]

On Sat, 27 May 2006 22:06:39 +0000 (UTC), ***@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:


> I don't know whence Mardi got her suggestion, but
>I suspect that is may be from the ¶ under Fig. 2,
>'Rulers of Kent', on p. 409, of my aforementioned
>article in _Foundations_, I:6. I did not name her;
>and I suggested that she married Eoppa, Ingilding.
>I opposed this to Dave Kelley's suggestion of a
>marriage of Æþelbeorht II's daughter to Eahlmund
>Eaffing. I touched on the supposition that
>Sigebeorht, King of Wessex, 756-757, was the brother
>of Sigeread, King of Kent, 759-763; (both being sons
>of Eoppa Ingilding, and brothers of Eaffa Eopping).
>Thus this would, I pointed out, explain the apparent
>earlier link 'twixt Kent & Wessex than would be the
>case with the later union.
> Ingild 'Conrading', I should suggest, wed an East
>Saxon princess, probably daughter of K. Sæbbi, thus
>explaing the East Saxon names of the royal brothers.
>This, I suggest, is only one way in which the East
>Saxon dynasty, the Æscwingas, continued beyond the
>amalgam of their kingdom into the greater Anglo-Saxon
>polity. For others, one could see the suggestions in
>my article, or go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Saxon-Genealogy/files.

According to John ["Florence"] of Worcester, king Sigeberht of Wessex
was the son of a certain Sigeric. Sigeberht also had a brother named
Cyneheard [same source]. Since Sigeberht and his father both had
names that also appear among the East Saxon kings, and Cyneheard
appears to be a West Saxon name (the prefix Cyne- being common in that
family), it seems more likely that Sigeberht's father was an East
Saxon, and that his mother was a member of the West Saxon dynasty. I
see no reason to reject the evidence of John of Worcester (who was
using a version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle no longer available to
us) and make Sigeberht a son of Eoppa.

Stewart Baldwin

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Ford, David, Leo, Mardi , Will and others,
Another
example of a matronymic is Duncan mac Bethoc nighean Malcolm. The Scots King
also known as Duncan mac Crinan.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[J***@aol.com]

Dear David and others,
According to David Williamson`s " Kings and
Queens of Britain " Appendix B Table 2 (pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent abt
455-488 was father of Aesc, King of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher married to
Vortigern, King of the Britons. Aesc had Octa , King of Kent abt 512-abt
542, Octa had Eormenric , King of Kent abt 540-abt 560, Eormenric was the
father of Aethelbert I, King of Kent abt 560-616 who married twice 1st Bertha,
daughter of Charibert I, King of Paris, 2nd unknown woman and Ricula, wife of
Sledda, King of Essex
Aethelbert I, King of Kent was the father of Eadbald,
King of Kent 616- 640 who married 1st his father`s widow and 2nd Emma, daughter
of Theodebert II, King of Austrasia and Ethelburga d 647, wife of Eadwine, King
of Northumbria
Eadbald, King of Kent and his first wife had Mildred
(Milmade), Abbess of Lyninge, by Emma He had the subking Eormenred who by wife
Olava had Eormenburga, wife of Merewald, and the Aethelings Ethelbert and
Ethelred, Eadbald had further Eorconbert, King of Kent 640-664 who married
Seaxburga, daughter of Anna, King of East Anglica and a daughter St Eanwythe,
Abbess of Folkestone.
see prior posts for issue from Eorconbert, King of Kent.
According to The Encyopedia of World History Peter Stearns editor (2001) (p
170) Table of Merovingian Kings
1Clovis I 488-511 married St Clothild, daughter of
King Gondebaud of Burgundy
2 Clotaire I 511- 561, King of Soissons, later King
of the Franks m Ingund
3 Sigebert I 561- 575, King of Austrasia
assassinated m Brunhilda, daughter of Athanagild, King of the Visigoths by his wife
Goiswintha
4 Childebert II 575-595, King of Austrasia, King of
Burgundy as well from 593 married Faileuba
5 Theodebert II 595-612 King of Austrasia deposed
and murdeed m Bilchild
6 Emma m Eadbald, King of Kent (note: Eadbald`s
wife is not identified as a daughter of Theodebert II of Austrasia at some sites
on the web)
3 Charibert I m Ingoberg
4 Adelberg (also called Bertha) m Ethelbert I, King
of Kent
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[wjhonson]

Last year James Cummings (of Dixmont, Maine) posted that : "According
to David Williamson`s "Kings and Queens of Britain" Appendix B Table 2
(pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent abt 455-488 was father of Aesc, King
of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher married to Vortigern, King of the
Britons...."

For the last few days, I've been reading and extracting the fanciful
genealogies and associated fractured chronology from Geoffrey of
Monmouth's "British History" and came upon Book VI, Chapter XII
stating "Vortegirn marries Rowen, the daughter of Hengist".

For those of you who like citing the exact sources for exact claims.

I'm not claiming this work is truthful, only that it's citable.

Google Books lazy link
"The British History of Geoffrey of Monmouth: in Twelve Books", by
Geoffrey of Monmouth
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PPA90&id=FUoMAAAAIAAJ#PPA120,M1
Book VI Chapter XII

Original post follows.

Will Johnson
----------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ***@aol.com
Date: May 27 2006, 2:34 pm
Subject: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
To: soc.genealogy.medieval


Dear David and others,
According to David Williamson`s
"Kingsand
Queens of Britain " Appendix B Table 2 (pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent
abt
455-488 was father of Aesc, King of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher
married to
Vortigern, King of the Britons. Aesc had Octa , King of Kent abt 512-
abt
542, Octa had Eormenric , King of Kent abt 540-abt 560, Eormenric
was the
father of Aethelbert I, King of Kent abt 560-616 who married twice
1st Bertha,daughterof Charibert I, King of Paris, 2nd unknown woman
and Ricula, wife of
Sledda, King of Essex
Aethelbert I, King of Kent was the father of
Eadbald,
King of Kent 616- 640 who married 1st his father`s widow and 2nd
Emma,daughter
of Theodebert II, King of Austrasia and Ethelburga d 647, wife of
Eadwine, King
of Northumbria
Eadbald, King of Kent and his first wife had
Mildred
(Milmade), Abbess of Lyninge, by Emma He had the subking Eormenred who
by wife
Olava had Eormenburga, wife of Merewald, and the Aethelings
Ethelbert and
Ethelred, Eadbald had further Eorconbert, King of Kent 640-664 who
married
Seaxburga,daughterof Anna, King of East Anglica and adaughterSt
Eanwythe,
Abbess of Folkestone.
see prior posts for issue from Eorconbert, King of Kent.
According to The Encyopedia of World History Peter Stearns editor
(2001) (p
170) Table of MerovingianKings
1Clovis I 488-511 married St
Clothild,daughterof
King Gondebaud of Burgundy
2 Clotaire I 511- 561, King of Soissons,
later King
of the Franks m Ingund
3 Sigebert I 561- 575, King of Austrasia
assassinated m Brunhilda,daughterof Athanagild, King of the Visigoths
by his wife
Goiswintha
4 Childebert II 575-595, King of Austrasia,
King of
Burgundy as well from 593 married Faileuba
5 Theodebert II 595-612 King of Austrasia
deposed
and murdeed m Bilchild
6 Emma m Eadbald, King of Kent (note:
Eadbald`s
wife is not identified as adaughterof Theodebert II of Austrasia at
some sites
on the web)
3 Charibert I m Ingoberg
4 Adelberg (also called Bertha) m Ethelbert
I, King
of Kent
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

[Hovite]

On Sep 12, 11:10 pm, wjhonson <***@aol.com> wrote:
> Last year James Cummings (of Dixmont, Maine) posted that : "According
> to David Williamson`s "Kings and Queens of Britain" Appendix B Table 2
> (pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent abt 455-488 was father of Aesc, King
> of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher married to Vortigern, King of the
> Britons...."
>
> For the last few days, I've been reading and extracting the fanciful
> genealogies and associated fractured chronology from Geoffrey of
> Monmouth's "British History" and came upon Book VI, Chapter XII
> stating "Vortegirn marries Rowen, the daughter of Hengist".
>
> For those of you who like citing the exact sources for exact claims.
>
> I'm not claiming this work is truthful, only that it's citable.

The name Rowena is impossible for an Anglo-Saxon woman, and the whole
story is clearly just a fairy tale.

[WJhonson]

<<In a message dated 09/14/07 11:45:26 Pacific Standard Time, ***@gmail.com writes:
The name Rowena is impossible for an Anglo-Saxon woman, and the whole
story is clearly just a fairy tale. >>

-------------------

Paul I know the work is not credible. But like Bertram, I'm collecting these details so I know where they come from, not as proofs of what they relate.

Will

[Hovite]

[Christopher Ingham]

[taf]

On Sep 15, 3:50 pm, Christopher Ingham <***@comcast.net>
wrote:

> Would anyone be aware as to whether there have been any recent
> substantive inroads in verifying the supposed and very tenuous descent
> of Egbert from Charibert via the Kentish kings?

Nothing has been found to overcome the most substantive stumbling
block, the lack of single documentary source that links Egbert to the
Kentish kings.

af

[Christopher Ingham]

On Sep 15, 10:09 pm, taf <***@interfold.com> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 3:50 pm, Christopher Ingham <***@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Would anyone be aware as to whether there have been any recent
> > substantive inroads in verifying the supposed and very tenuous descent
> > of Egbert from Charibert via the Kentish kings?
>
> Nothing has been found to overcome the most substantive stumbling
> block, the lack of single documentary source that links Egbert to the
> Kentish kings.

Drats!

Not to be begging the issue, but what is the probability, in your
informed opinion, that one or more of the genealogical schemes posited
by reputable scholars (this excludes internet genealogy sites, except
perhaps [can I mention it?] "Medieval Lands") is plausible? More
specifically, do you think that the main body of_dramatis personae_has
been correctly determined, and only awaits fine tuning pending future
discoveries and research?

Christopher Ingham

[taf]

On Sep 15, 8:51 pm, Christopher Ingham <***@comcast.net>
wrote:

> Not to be begging the issue, but what is the probability, in your
> informed opinion, that one or more of the genealogical schemes posited
> by reputable scholars (this excludes internet genealogy sites, except
> perhaps [can I mention it?] "Medieval Lands") is plausible?

Well, "plausible" is an entirely different standard. Anyone with a
set of regnal tables could come up with any number of plausible
genealogies, but you are no further ahead having done it, as it is
unsubstantiated speculation that any connection exists to begin with.

More
> specifically, do you think that the main body of_dramatis personae_has
> been correctly determined, and only awaits fine tuning pending future
> discoveries and research?

I am perfect willing to accept the possibility (high probability,
even) that there remain no miracle smoking-gun discoveries out there
to be made, an that any connection between Ecgberht and the Kings of
Kent will forever remain a mystery. I know - not what you wanted to
hear.

taf

[W David Samuelsen]

<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-05/1148672763>

Isn't Canute who ascended to English throne also the same person who
ruled Denmark - known as Canute the Great, on death of Sweyn Forkbeard
of Denmark on 30 Nov 1016 and died 12 Nov 1035, buried in Winchester
Cathedral, Winchester England. He ascended to Danish throne 1018 or 1019
on death of his older brother Harold II.

ruled English, Denmark and Norway as king and was overlord of Schleswig
and Pomerania

had children: Harold, Hardacanute, Sweyn and Cunigunde (Gunhilda).
Gunhilda married Henry, son of Konrad II, Emperor of Holy Roman Empire

Hardacanute suceeded as King of Denmark, as Canute III
Harold I succeeded as King of England as Harold I Harefoot. Never
married and no descendants, succeeded by Hardacanute as Canute the
Hardy, who was succeeded by his half brother Edward the Confessor.
Magnus the Noble succeeded as King of Norway

Not much is known about Sweyn after ouster by Magnus the Great of Norway.

David Samuelsen

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/26/2006 11:07:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@Cox.net writes:

Suggest checking http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Saxon_genealogy/files/.
These are primarily what I have been able to piece together. I try to
change them if anything new is introduced, or comes to light. But, if no-one
shares, nothing gets changed, unless I stumble on it. The group has been kind
of quiet, lately; but maybe something will come from this discussion.
Personally, I've had other life-issues this past fortnight, and haven't had time to
check through all of the posts on this thread.
Any suggestions, changes or updates to the charts are welcome. That's why I
drew and posted them.
Ford


Yahoo Groups is a bad place to put files that you want a lot of comments on.
They require you to join the group and then they are an awfully slow web
service.

Would you consider putting your files on someplace like rootsweb ?

I find Yahoo Groups to be non-intuitive to navigate. It always takes me
several attempts just to find how you're supposed to join and once you join how
you're supposed to contribute or view what's there.

Will

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

-----Original Message-----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


|
| In a message dated 5/26/2006 11:07:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
| ***@Cox.net writes:
|
| Suggest checking http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Saxon_genealogy/files/.
| These are primarily what I have been able to piece together. I try to
| change them if anything new is introduced, or comes to light. But, if no-one
| shares, nothing gets changed, unless I stumble on it. The group has been kind
| of quiet, lately; but maybe something will come from this discussion.
| Personally, I've had other life-issues this past fortnight, and haven't had time to
| check through all of the posts on this thread.
| Any suggestions, changes or updates to the charts are welcome. That's why I
| drew and posted them.
| Ford
|
|
| Yahoo Groups is a bad place to put files that you want a lot of comments on.
| They require you to join the group and then they are an awfully slow web
| service.
|
| Would you consider putting your files on someplace like rootsweb ?
|
| I find Yahoo Groups to be non-intuitive to navigate. It always takes me
| several attempts just to find how you're supposed to join and once you join how
| you're supposed to contribute or view what's there.
|
| Will

Funny that you say that, Will! I was just writing to Gordon Banks about the various lists which I hosted, owned, moderated, facilitated, coached, whatever. Here is an excerpt:

Byzantine Genealogy had been on MSN, but Yahoo! offers more.
On RootsWeb, I had, also, ASIAN-ROYALTY, and ARAB-AND-MOSLEM - but they were taken away at the same time as GEN-ANCIENT[, when I was having PC and connectivity issues]. Their new owners managed to let them die, w/o [angering] everyone off; so Rootsweb let them keep them. The woman at GEN-ANCIENT for those few months [angered] so many that Joseph Uphoff started http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancient_Genealogy; and now that gets all of the Gen-A stuff. Rootsweb isn't too sharp at responsible, (or responsive), management, (or 'managerment', as my employer spells it). IF they would allow gating, they could, at least, resurrect Ancient genealogical studies, and maybe Oriental. They claim that it would violate their privacy policy, even though there is unanimous desire for it among the lists involved. Thus, they thwart the very studies which they claim to promote!

That said, (since you, more or less, raised the issue), I wouldn't have a problem with posting my little 'objets d'art généalogique' anywhere where there would be an interest. BUT: (HUGE WARNUNG follows) they are intended as starting points, to be amended as warranted. I need to redo my Anastasii chart, as is, (due to information shared by Chr. Settipani). I have to go to the library to do this, as I've essentially 'maxxed-out' my RAM, and can't afford to expand it right now. Would Rootsweb be accessible for alterations and updates?

On related comments: I find Yahoo fairly easy to navigate. Certainly more intuitive than Wikicities, Geocities, (also Yahoo!) or FortuneCity, (IIRC, Lycos/AngelFire), and even slightly more so than MSN or SmartGroups.
For joining, I've learned a little trick. When you arrive at the homepage, (e.g: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rabbi-Rabbi/, just type 'join', after the final slash (/). This works even for groups on other language Yahoo!s, (i.e., on does not need to translate the word 'join' into the respective vernacular).

Ford


'Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, "Lenore!"
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, "Lenore!"--
Merely this, and nothing more.'

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Ford,
I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[David Teague]

Brian Sykes used "matronymic" when discussing the derivation of the surname
Dyson in his book _Adam's Curse_.

David Teague


>From: ***@aol.com
>To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 22:23:43 EDT
>
> Dear Ford,
> I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
>used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
>Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
> Sincerely,
> James W Cummings
> Dixmont, Maine USA
>

[h***@hotmail.com]

***@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Ford,
> I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
> used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
> Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
> Sincerely,
> James W Cummings
> Dixmont, Maine USA

The Oxford English Dictionary says it was first used in print in 1794,
modelled on patronymic...

Cheers,

Tom Green

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


|
| ***@aol.com wrote:
| > Dear Ford,
| > I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
| > used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
| > Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
| > Sincerely,
| > James W Cummings
| > Dixmont, Maine USA
|
| The Oxford English Dictionary says it was first used in print in 1794,
| modelled on patronymic...
|
| Cheers,
|
| Tom Green

Bubble-burster!

[h***@hotmail.com]

"Ford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

> | The Oxford English Dictionary says it was first used in print in 1794,
> | modelled on patronymic...
> |
> | Cheers,
> |
> | Tom Green
>
> Bubble-burster!

Sorry :-) But you still have DFA, I seem to recall...

Tom

[Paul K Davis]

But the problem is, when we see a name of the "son of ..." or "daughter of
..." sort, we frequently cannot tell whether it is a patronymic or a
matronymic. It is usually assumed to be a patronymic because they are much
more common, but then we may discover that what we have been referring to
as a patronymic was really a matronymic.

I have also seen matronymics in medieval Welsh genealogies, not
distinguished from patronymics. In fact, I have seen the same person, in
one genealogy given his or her patronymic, and in another the matronymic.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-***@earthlink.net]


> [Original Message]
> From: <***@gmail.com>
> To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
> Date: 5/27/2006 3:52:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>
> A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
> the mother.

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/27/2006 8:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@Cox.net writes:

On RootsWeb, I had, also, ASIAN-ROYALTY, and ARAB-AND-MOSLEM - but they were
taken away at the same time as GEN-ANCIENT[, when I was having PC and
connectivity issues]. Their new owners managed to let them die, w/o [angering]
everyone off; so Rootsweb let them keep them. The woman at GEN-ANCIENT for
those few months [angered] so many that Joseph Uphoff started
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancient_Genealogy


I'm not talking about message groups however, but only about FTP file
repositories.
That is, each page, is indexed, and viewable seperate from any group or
discussion about it.

Rootsweb allows any person to request space and they give you your own FTP
site. They state "unlimited space", I haven't really pushed it, but so far
I've found no limits to the amount of material I can load to my site. And I've
loaded a few hundred megabytes at least.
Will

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


|
| In a message dated 5/27/2006 8:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
| ***@Cox.net writes:
|
| On RootsWeb, I had, also, ASIAN-ROYALTY, and ARAB-AND-MOSLEM - but they were
| taken away at the same time as GEN-ANCIENT[, when I was having PC and
| connectivity issues]. Their new owners managed to let them die, w/o [angering]
| everyone off; so Rootsweb let them keep them. The woman at GEN-ANCIENT for
| those few months [angered] so many that Joseph Uphoff started
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancient_Genealogy
|
|
| I'm not talking about message groups however, but only about FTP file
| repositories.
| That is, each page, is indexed, and viewable seperate from any group or
| discussion about it.
|
| Rootsweb allows any person to request space and they give you your own FTP
| site. They state "unlimited space", I haven't really pushed it, but so far
| I've found no limits to the amount of material I can load to my site. And I've
| loaded a few hundred megabytes at least.
| Will

Thanks. I'll check into this. You can expect personal correspondence if I have any questions.

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/27/2006 8:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@Cox.net writes:

Would Rootsweb be accessible for alterations and updates?




I answered this tangentially, but I'll answer it more directly now.
Essentially one of the services that Rootsweb offers is individual FTP space
for anything genealogy related. They give any person requesting space,
their own individual FTP location. So I have a site called
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wjhonson for example. You just need a FTP program and
you can upload or download your stuff all day long.

Once google runs through it, it will start appearing in the google index.
But even before that you can certainly give people links to your stuff.

Will

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart Baldwin" <***@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


On Sat, 27 May 2006 22:06:39 +0000 (UTC), ***@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:


> I don't know whence Mardi got her suggestion, but
>I suspect that is may be from the ¶ under Fig. 2,
>'Rulers of Kent', on p. 409, of my aforementioned
>article in _Foundations_, I:6. I did not name her;
>and I suggested that she married Eoppa, Ingilding.
>I opposed this to Dave Kelley's suggestion of a
>marriage of Æþelbeorht II's daughter to Eahlmund
>Eaffing. I touched on the supposition that
>Sigebeorht, King of Wessex, 756-757, was the brother
>of Sigeread, King of Kent, 759-763; (both being sons
>of Eoppa Ingilding, and brothers of Eaffa Eopping).
>Thus this would, I pointed out, explain the apparent
>earlier link 'twixt Kent & Wessex than would be the
>case with the later union.
> Ingild 'Conrading', I should suggest, wed an East
>Saxon princess, probably daughter of K. Sæbbi, thus
>explaing the East Saxon names of the royal brothers.
>This, I suggest, is only one way in which the East
>Saxon dynasty, the Æscwingas, continued beyond the
>amalgam of their kingdom into the greater Anglo-Saxon
>polity. For others, one could see the suggestions in
>my article, or go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Saxon-Genealogy/files.

According to John ["Florence"] of Worcester, king Sigeberht of Wessex
was the son of a certain Sigeric. Sigeberht also had a brother named
Cyneheard [same source]. Since Sigeberht and his father both had
names that also appear among the East Saxon kings, and Cyneheard
appears to be a West Saxon name (the prefix Cyne- being common in that
family), it seems more likely that Sigeberht's father was an East
Saxon, and that his mother was a member of the West Saxon dynasty. I
see no reason to reject the evidence of John of Worcester (who was
using a version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle no longer available to
us) and make Sigeberht a son of Eoppa.

Stewart Baldwin


I am not rejecting John. This is news to me, (and I am not a little puzzled as to how I missed it, and miffed that I did).
Your reconstruction certainly makes sense. I shall have to reconsider all of this, and, undoubtedly, change the geneagraphy that I constructed. Three (3) of them, actually. Well, I keep pointing out that that is why I drew them, and share them.
Thanks for bringing this titbit to my/our attention.
Sincerely,
Ford


--
'Our duty is to be useful, not according to our desires, but according to our powers.'
-Henri Frederic Amiel

'You are not here merely to make a living. You are here to enable the
world to live more amply, with greater vision, and with a finer
spirit of hope and achievement. You are here to enrich the world.
You impoverish yourself if you forget this errand.'
- Woodrow Wilson


'Don't judge those who try, and fail. Judge only those who fail to try.'


'War does not determine who is right; only who is left.'
- The Rt. Hon. Prof. Bertrand, Earl Russell

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@gmail.com writes:

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.



Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed into a
God.

Will

[Doug McDonald]

***@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> ***@gmail.com writes:
>
> Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
>
>
>
> Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
> past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed into a
> God.
>
> Will
>
and if it is true, there is a good chance that I am his
all-male-line descendant

And there is actually some chance that DNA tests can decide
the truth, though of course all depends on luck and the
DNA preserving qualities of permafrost burials.

Doug McDonald

[p***@gmail.com]

According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, if you are a male line
descendant of Woden, then you are also a male line descendant of Adam:

"And Ethelwulf was the son of
Egbert, Egbert of Ealhmund, Ealhmund of Eafa, Eafa of Eoppa,
Eoppa of Ingild; Ingild was the brother of Ina, king of the
West-Saxons, who held that kingdom thirty-seven winters, and
afterwards went to St. Peter, where he died. And they were the
sons of Cenred, Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cutha, Cutha of
Cuthwin, Cuthwin of Ceawlin, Ceawlin of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda,
Creoda of Cerdic, Cerdic of Elesa, Elesa of Esla, Esla of Gewis,
Gewis of Wig, Wig of Freawine, Freawine of Frithugar, Frithugar
of Brond, Brond of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Frithuwald,
Frithuwald of Freawine, Freawine of Frithuwualf, Frithuwulf of
Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Great, Great of Taetwa, Taetwa
of Beaw, Beaw of Sceldwa, Sceldwa of Heremod, Heremod of Itermon,
Itermon of Hathra, Hathra of Hwala, Hwala of Bedwig, Bedwig of
Sceaf; that is, the son of Noah, who was born in Noah's ark:
Laznech, Methusalem, Enoh, Jared, Malalahel, Cainion, Enos, Seth,
Adam the first man, and our Father, that is, Christ. Amen."

(There are some variants.)

[Mary Jane Battaglia]

Now, that does sound familiar. No doubt this concept can be applied to
numerous other deities.
mjbattaglia
----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


>
> In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> ***@gmail.com writes:
>
> Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
>
>
>
> Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
> past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed
> into a
> God.
>
> Will
>
>

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Jane Battaglia" <***@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Now, that does sound familiar. No doubt this concept can be applied to
| numerous other deities.
| mjbattaglia




The entire corpus of Early Irish, and a good chunk of early Welsh pedigrees.




| ----- Original Message -----
| From: <***@aol.com>
| To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
| Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:50 AM
| Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
|
|
| >
| > In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
| > ***@gmail.com writes:
| >
| > Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
| >
| >
| >
| > Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
| > past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed
| > into a
| > God.
| >
| > Will
| >
| >
|
|

[h***@hotmail.com]

"Ford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

> | Now, that does sound familiar. No doubt this concept can be applied to
> | numerous other deities.
> | mjbattaglia
>
> The entire corpus of Early Irish, and a good chunk of early Welsh pedigrees.

Indeed. You're probably already familiar with these, but they are
worth a wider audience, I think, for demonstrating both the process
under discussion here and continuity in oral tradition between the
pre-Roman Iron Age and medieval oral and literary traditions:

Koch, J.T. 1990, 'Brân, Brennos: An Instance of Early
Gallo-Brittonic History and Mythology' in _Cambridge Medieval Celtic
Studies_ 20 (Winter), pp.1-20 [argues that Bran, who probably
functioned as the Brittonic god of death, was actually the historical
Brennos -- see for example
http://www.celtnet.org.uk/gods_b/brennos.html on Brennos]

Koch, J.T. 1987, 'A Welsh Window on the Iron Age: Manawydan,
Mandubracios' in _Cambridge Medieval Celtic Studies_ 14 (Winter),
pp.17-52 [argues that Manawydan map Llyr, the Welsh cognate of the
Irish sea-god Manannán mac Lir, was actually the pre-Roman British
King Mandubracios of the Trinovantes]

Simon Young gave a brief summary of Koch's ideas in 'Celtic Myths,
Celtic History?' in _History Today_, April 2002, 52.4

Cheers,

Tom Green

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 29 May, ***@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> ***@gmail.com writes:
>
> > Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
>
> Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the
> dim past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was
> developed into a God.

This is certainly how the Egyptian gods developed and I would not be
surprised if some of that theology had not rubbed off on the later
Scandanavians, particularly as it was so attractive to the rulers.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Chris Bennett]

"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <***@powys.org> wrote in message
news:***@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
> In message of 29 May, ***@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>> ***@gmail.com writes:
>>
>> > Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
>>
>> Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the
>> dim past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was
>> developed into a God.
>
> This is certainly how the Egyptian gods developed and I would not be
> surprised if some of that theology had not rubbed off on the later
> Scandanavians, particularly as it was so attractive to the rulers.
>

I think you've been reading too much Roger Zelazny ("Creatures of Light and
Darkness" -- great book).

Where did you get the idea that the Egyptian gods are euhemerisations? And
how exactly is that idea supposed to have travelled from pre-dynastic Egypt
to Viking Scandinavia??

Chris

> --
> Tim Powys-Lybbe ***@powys.org
> For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 29 May, "Chris Bennett" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
>
> "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <***@powys.org> wrote in message
> news:***@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
> > In message of 29 May, ***@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> >> ***@gmail.com writes:
> >>
> >> > Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
> >>
> >> Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the
> >> dim past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was
> >> developed into a God.
> >
> > This is certainly how the Egyptian gods developed and I would not be
> > surprised if some of that theology had not rubbed off on the later
> > Scandanavians, particularly as it was so attractive to the rulers.
> >
>
> I think you've been reading too much Roger Zelazny ("Creatures of Light and
> Darkness" -- great book).
>
> Where did you get the idea that the Egyptian gods are euhemerisations? And
> how exactly is that idea supposed to have travelled from pre-dynastic Egypt
> to Viking Scandinavia??

The ideas came from two books, first Carter's on his exploration in the
Valley of the Kings and second Zahi Hawass' (Secretary general of
Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities) on the Tutankhamun discoveries
and what we know of their history, culture and religion.

Tutankhamun was around at 1330 BC. Their religion was highly
theocratic and with an identification between the gods and the rulers.
This must have been both enormously powerful in encouraging obedience
from the ruled and a set of doctrines to appeal to any other ruler.

There was plenty of time for something of this to get to Scandinavia by,
perhaps 500 AD.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[p***@gmail.com]

The falsity of that theory is easily demonstrated: "only three
generations separate the fifth century humans Hengest and Horsa from
the god Woden, who was worshipped at least as early as the first
century A.D." (W. A. Chaney "The Cult of Kingship" 1970).

Woden's alleged son Vecta is a Roman name for the Isle of Wight
(found in two Roman sources and Bede). No man nor god can begat an
island, nor can an island be the grandfather of a couple of horses.

[Todd A. Farmerie]

***@gmail.com wrote:
> The falsity of that theory is easily demonstrated: "only three
> generations separate the fifth century humans Hengest and Horsa from
> the god Woden, who was worshipped at least as early as the first
> century A.D." (W. A. Chaney "The Cult of Kingship" 1970).

It should perhaps be noted that Hengist appears in another context -
'The Fight at Finnsberg' (a heroic poem that is told by a bard in
Beowulf, and, fortunately, a fragment of the original is also preserved).

The Wessex royal descent from Woden has also been definitively demolished.

taf

[Paul K Davis]

The facts that Woden was a god and Vecta was an island does not prove that
there were not also people of these names. Some believe there was a
historical Woden, who was named after the god or who was the prototype of
the god. I have an open mind until further evidence should arise.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-***@earthlink.net]


> [Original Message]
> From: <***@gmail.com>
> To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
> Date: 5/29/2006 9:07:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>
> Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
>
> Vecta is the Isle of Wight, and that isn't the grandfather of anybody.
>
> Unfortunately, Anglo-Saxon genealogies are full of falsehoods.

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/29/06 12:52:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@gmail.com writes:

<< And they were the
sons of Cenred, Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cutha, Cutha of
Cuthwin, Cuthwin of Ceawlin, Ceawlin of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda,
Creoda of Cerdic, Cerdic of Elesa, Elesa of Esla, Esla of Gewis,
Gewis of Wig, Wig of Freawine, Freawine of Frithugar, Frithugar
of Brond, Brond of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Frithuwald,
Frithuwald of Freawine, Freawine of Frithuwualf, Frithuwulf of
Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Great, Great of Taetwa, Taetwa
of Beaw, Beaw of Sceldwa, Sceldwa of Heremod, Heremod of Itermon,
Itermon of Hathra, Hathra of Hwala, Hwala of Bedwig, Bedwig of
Sceaf; that is, the son of Noah, who was born in Noah's ark:
Laznech, Methusalem, Enoh, Jared, Malalahel, Cainion, Enos, Seth,
Adam the first man, and our Father, that is, Christ. Amen." >>

Of course we need to be aware that this descent is much much too short to be
literal and complete.
Will Johnson

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/29/06 12:22:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@gmail.com writes:

<< Woden's alleged son Vecta is a Roman name for the Isle of Wight
(found in two Roman sources and Bede). No man nor god can begat an
island, nor can an island be the grandfather of a couple of horses. >>

The island was named for the person. Simple enough :)
Will

[Perfect Tommy]

In article <***@aol.com>, <***@aol.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 5/29/06 12:22:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ***@gmail.com writes:
>
> << Woden's alleged son Vecta is a Roman name for the Isle of Wight
> (found in two Roman sources and Bede). No man nor god can begat an
> island, nor can an island be the grandfather of a couple of horses. >>
>
> The island was named for the person. Simple enough :)
> Will
>


I find in amusing, as well as offensive, that the same archaeologists
who proudly anounced they had found the tomb of the person later
worshiped as Ra are the same ones who dismiss the very existence of
Odin on the basis that he was worshiped as a god. They swear some king
of Uruk is real because he is on a list as ruling for 1300 years, yet
King Aun is myth because he lived to be more than 120.

The Woden many genealogies trace back to is not the god Odin, he is the
4th century Woden whose wife was named Frigg, hence the confusion. Of
course, they thought they were linking to the god, yet the dating
doesn't work. Of the 14 ways I am supposedly descended from Odin, only
2 actually seem possible. The rest try to squeeze 100 generations into
200 years to connect with Woden, or they try to stretch 10 generation
over 700 years to connect with Odin.

Was Odin real? I believe so. I also believe he was completely insane;
if the stories are based even remotely on fact. I also believe he was a
Scythian. That would explain the disappearance of Asgard (the Scythians
were nomadic so their camp would not be in the same place long, though
possibly in the same place at the same time every year), his claim to
be a god (the Scythians were known to claim divinity as a way of
securing loyatly from conquered peoples), the crusifixion tale of how
he aquired the runes, and the claim that the kings of Sweden had
relatives in the middle-east (the Scythians had conquered part of
Persia and left a group behind to rule).

Many historians try to dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories simply
because the names of the people are the same as that of other things,
mostly in nature (snow, mountains, shore). I guess my sister, whose
name means "meadow", isn't real, along with anyone named Autumn, Poppy
Montgomery and her sisters, anyone named Brooke (Brooke Shields doesn't
exist), etc. I think you get my point.

But I'm no expert.

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Perfect Tommy wrote:

> I find in amusing, as well as offensive, that the same archaeologists
> who proudly anounced they had found the tomb of the person later
> worshiped as Ra are the same ones who dismiss the very existence of
> Odin on the basis that he was worshiped as a god.

You should find it unbelievable, as it would be entirely different sets
of archaeologists researching a tomb in ancient Egypt and ancient
Scandinavian mythology - more the work of an anthropologist.

> The Woden many genealogies trace back to is not the god Odin, he is the
> 4th century Woden whose wife was named Frigg, hence the confusion.

Just assertion. There is no evidence that a 4th century individual of
this name existed.

Of
> course, they thought they were linking to the god, yet the dating
> doesn't work.

It is unclear how the dating of a connection to a god can not work, as
they are generally believed by believers to be immortal - there is no
date at which a god could not have a child, and no number of generations
too many or too few (e.g. there is a religion you may have heard of that
believes the same deity created a man and a woman in 4004 BC and then
fathered a son 4000 years later).

Of the 14 ways I am supposedly descended from Odin, only
> 2 actually seem possible.

That is two more than can be supported by a critical analysis of
surviving documentation.


> Was Odin real? I believe so. I also believe he was completely insane;
> if the stories are based even remotely on fact. I also believe he was a
> Scythian.

Well, you can certainly believe this if you want. The lack of
supporting evidence makes anything possible. However, you might want to
ask yourself why you find this particular set of beliefs more
comfortable than, say, that the pedigree is invented and that he was not
a historical person.

> Many historians try to dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories simply
> because the names of the people are the same as that of other things,

You wouldn't be able to name any would you? I doubt there are any that
"dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories" for this reason and this reason
alone.


taf

[p***@gmail.com]

> But I'm no expert.

The Jutish kings claimed descent from Aesc, the ash-tree, the Saxons
from Seaxnet, the need of the Saxons, and the Angles from Woden, the
All-Father. Likewise, the Caesars claimed descent from Venus, the
Goddess of Love. But Aesc, Seaxnet, Woden, and Venus were not real
people. Indeed, they were neither real nor people. There were
personificatons of abstract concepts, like Hope and Victory. This is
most obviously apparent in the case of Seaxnet, the need of the Saxons.


It is also important to be aware that the pagan Anglo-Saxons were
illiterate, so written records commence with the arrival of Augustine.
King lists and genealogies purporting to document prechristian kings
are not contemporary with the period, but were fabricated subsequently.
Likewise, the earlier portions of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which was
compiled in 891, are fiction, largely derived from an imaginative
interpretation of place-names. Under 477 we read that Wlencing was the
son of Aelle, but Wlencing is a patronymic meaning 'son of Wlenca',
so he cannot also have been son of Aelle! Clearly the chronicler has
carelessly extracted Wlencing from an early form of the place-name
Lancing. Moving on to 501, Portsmouth is located at the mouth of a
port; it is not named after a sailor called Port; he was quarried out
of the place-name. Then under 508 Natanleag means 'wet meadow', so
it was not named after a slain Welsh king called Natanleod; he is an
invention. And under 514 we find Wihtgar, who twenty years later is
given the Isle of Wight, and later buried at Wihtgaraburg. But
Wihtgaraburg does not mean 'burial place of Wihtgar' but 'the
fortress of the inhabitants of Wight', and Wight itself is derived from
Romano-British Vectis or Vecta.

http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=450-550

While it is now the case that people name children River or Poppy, this
was most certainly not true during the Anglo-Saxon period, when
personal names were almost always constructed from two name forming
elements. Taking Edward the Confessor as a starting point, the sequence
backwards is: Ead-weard, Aethel-red, Ead-gar, Ead-mund, Ead-weard,
Aelf-red, Aethel-wulf, Ecg-berht, and Ealh-mund. All these are
historical. The father and grandfather of Ealhmund are less certainly
historical. Their names are recorded as "Eafa" and "Eoppa".
There are no dates attached to these names. They have no brothers,
sisters, mothers, wives, or daughters. They exist solely to connect
Ealhmund, King of Kent, to the West Saxon kings. "Eafa" and
"Eoppa" may be fictional, but they could be hypocoristic forms of
genuine names, just as Nunna was Nothhelm, Offa was Osfrith, and Aelle
was Aelfwine (and today Billy is William). Beyond "Eoppa", the
regular sequence resumes: In-gild, Coen-red, Ceol-wald, Cuth-wulf,
Cuth-wine, Cael-in, Cyn-ric, "Creoda", and Cer-dic. There are
variant version of this; often the suspicious "Creoda" is omitted.
Cynric and Cerdic may be real Saxons, or Britons (Cunorix and
Caratacos), or they may have been invented by the Chronicler out of
place-names. Certainly the actions attributed to them must be fiction,
because they are placed too far South (in Jutish territory), and are
found in the company of the bogus "Natanleod" and "Wihtgar".

Beyond Cerdic, all is fiction: "Elesa", "Esla", "Gewis",
"Wig", "Freawine", "Froethegar", "Brand",
"Baeldaeg", and Woden, the All-Father. Not only is the list
fictional, but it has been stolen from Ida, King of Bernica, with
"Boernic", eponym of Bernicia removed and replaced with
"Gewis", eponym of the Gewisse (the original name of the West Saxon
people). As with "Eafa" and "Eoppa", there are no dates, no
brothers, sisters, mothers, wives, or daughters, just a list of strange
names. This information comes from K. Sisam, "Anglo-Saxon Royal
Genealogies" (1953):

"The explanation is, I believe, that Cerdic's pedigree was copied from
this part of Ida's, and that Gewis was substituted afterwards to give
it a West Saxon colouring. The substitution exactly at this point might
be made because the association of Bernic with Bernicia was obvious.
Bernic, who appears only in the pedigree of Ida, is generally regarded
as an eponymous king derived from the name of the Bernicians, and
Giwis, who appears only in the pedigree of Cerdic, seems to be derived
in the same way from Gewisse".

[p***@gmail.com]

In several postings above, Ealhmund, father of Ecgberht, King of
Wessex, is referred to as "Ealhmund, subking of Kent". Historically
that style is incorrect. In a surviving absract of a charter he is
called "Ealmundus rex Canciæ". The abstract is greatly abbreviated,
but no superior king is mentioned.

http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+38

The style "subking" seems to be used on the assumption that
Ealhmund was a West Saxon interloper who was somehow imposed on Kent.
There is no evidence for this. On the contrary, Ealhmund's name, and
that of his son, closely match Kentish royal names: the previous kings
(so far as they are know) were Aethelbert, Eadbald, Ercenberht,
Ecgberht, Hlothhere, Eadric, Mul (of Wessex), Sweafheard (of Essex),
Oswine, Wihtred, Aethelberht, Eadberht, Eardwulf, Eadberht, Sigered,
Eanmund, Ecgberht, and Heahberht. Eahlmund's successors were
Eadberht, Cuthred (Mercian), and Baldred.

Eahlmund's name is remarkably similar to Eanmund (supposedly reigning
twenty years previously), and Ecgberht's name is the same as two
previous Kentish kings. In contrast, prior to Ecgberht's accession in
Wessex, no West Saxon king ever had a name commencing with Ean-, Eahl-
Ecg-, or Ead-, nor ending in -mund.

[J***@aol.com]

Dear Tim and others , while the Egyptian gods Ra , Amun and Aten are quite
possibly all traceable to Yahweh/Allah, the gods User (greek Osirius) and Iset
(greek Isis) more likely than not do refer directly to the Egyptian King and
Queen, several other gods are apparently of a totemic origin (such as Sutekh,
Sebek, Hor, Bastet and Hathor) there were other deified humans Imhetep and
Ptahhetep as well.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

[norenxaq]

***@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Tim and others , while the Egyptian gods Ra , Amun and Aten are quite
>possibly all traceable to Yahweh/Allah,
>
traceable how????

[J***@aol.com]

Dear fellow Listers,
in Ancient Egyptian, the sun god Ra`s name
apparently meant creator, Amun meant "the hidden one' and Aten meant "renewing
one" Yahweh / Allah is considered the creator who can`t be seen by human eyes and
who is the renewer of life. As to the deified King and Queen reference Us er
means throne ruler ( or occupier) and Is et (throne renewer) the letters a,
e, i , o and u are generally considered interchangable.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

I have been having an extremely difficult time seeing a connection between Osiris & Isis, and the Anglo-Saxons, kings or no'.

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Dear fellow Listers,
| in Ancient Egyptian, the sun god Ra`s name
| apparently meant creator, Amun meant "the hidden one' and Aten meant "renewing
| one" Yahweh / Allah is considered the creator who can`t be seen by human eyes and
| who is the renewer of life. As to the deified King and Queen reference Us er
| means throne ruler ( or occupier) and Is et (throne renewer) the letters a,
| e, i , o and u are generally considered interchangable.
| Sincerely,
| James W Cummings
| Dixmont, Maine USA
|

[norenxaq]

Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:

>I have been having an extremely difficult time seeing a connection between Osiris & Isis, and the Anglo-Saxons, kings or no'.
>
>

there probably is none

>----- Original Message -----
>From: <***@aol.com>
>To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:56 PM
>Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
>
>
>| Dear fellow Listers,
>| in Ancient Egyptian, the sun god Ra`s name
>| apparently meant creator, Amun meant "the hidden one' and Aten meant "renewing
>| one" Yahweh / Allah is considered the creator who can`t be seen by human eyes and
>| who is the renewer of life. As to the deified King and Queen reference Us er
>| means throne ruler ( or occupier) and Is et (throne renewer) the letters a,
>| e, i , o and u are generally considered interchangable.
>| Sincerely,
>| James W Cummings
>| Dixmont, Maine USA
>|
>
>
>

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Leo van de Pas wrote:
> From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England. Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex) whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?

The truth is that only Wessex has documented descents - all descents
from the other kingdoms are 'speculative', some based on sound
hypothesis, some based on nothing more than the desire to forge just
such links.

taf

[W***@aol.com]

In a message dated 6/11/2006 9:38:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@bredband.net writes:

That should be metronymic.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metronymic

English is not a logical language.;-)



My Webster's (hardback) says Matr the combination form is from Latin matr,
matri and french matr, mater all meaning mother

It says that Metr or metro, the combination form is also from french metra,
etr, meter (with the bar over the 'e') all also meaning... mother.

So it's not English that's at fault here, it's those damn French!

Will

[Lisbeth Andersson]

***@aol.com wrote in news:***@aol.com:

>
> In a message dated 6/11/2006 9:38:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> ***@bredband.net writes:
>
>> That should be metronymic.
>> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metronymic
>>
>> English is not a logical language.;-)
>>
>
>
> My Webster's (hardback) says Matr the combination form is from
> Latin matr, matri and french matr, mater all meaning mother
>
> It says that Metr or metro, the combination form is also from
> french metra, etr, meter (with the bar over the 'e') all also
> meaning... mother.
>
> So it's not English that's at fault here, it's those damn French!
>

So the English are not satisfied with borrowing the whole French
vocabulary once, they have to do it twice? (The French made them do
it!) I'm out of here (back to occasional lurking) before somebody
tells me about the language that got stolen three or more times. :-)


Lisbeth.

----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.

*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[W***@aol.com]

How can we be so sure that Hengist is fictional?

Will



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Ian Wallace]

On 16 Sep, 04:41, ***@aol.com wrote:
> How can we be so sure that Hengist is fictional?
>
> Will

Well there is a road near me named after him, surely that shows he is
real?
It is next to Horsa Road, they are connected by Ethelbert Road and I
don't think anyone doubts that King Ethelbert I was a real person...

Ian.

[Hovite]