Discussion:
Wife of Robert, 4th Earl of Strathearn (ancestors of the Duncanson sisters)
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g***@gmail.com
2017-07-26 02:43:29 UTC
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Greetings,

Perhaps a clearer subject might elicit more comment:

The Medieval Lands project, SP, and other web sources I've found show that the wife of Earl Robert is unknown. However, in Royal Ancestry (2013) 2:393 (Daubeney 5iia), Douglas R. states she was an unnamed daughter of Hugh de Moray (or Moravia), by Annabelle daughter of Duncan, Earl of Fife.

Am looking for the reasoning behind giving Earl Robert this unnamed de Moray daughter, and further, her descent from Duncan, Earl of Fife (which one, there are two). While naming patterns of are consistent with the identifications, surely there's more behind it.

If it matters, here is the connection to the Duncansons: 2nd husband of Earl Robert's daughter Annabelle was Patrick Graham, Knt. (see SP 6:207). From there it's several generations of Lord Graham's down to Agnes, wife of Walter Forrester.

Thanks

Greg Cooke
Peter Stewart
2017-07-27 03:30:15 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Greetings,
The Medieval Lands project, SP, and other web sources I've found show that the wife of Earl Robert is unknown. However, in Royal Ancestry (2013) 2:393 (Daubeney 5iia), Douglas R. states she was an unnamed daughter of Hugh de Moray (or Moravia), by Annabelle daughter of Duncan, Earl of Fife.
Am looking for the reasoning behind giving Earl Robert this unnamed de Moray daughter, and further, her descent from Duncan, Earl of Fife (which one, there are two). While naming patterns of are consistent with the identifications, surely there's more behind it.
If it matters, here is the connection to the Duncansons: 2nd husband of Earl Robert's daughter Annabelle was Patrick Graham, Knt. (see SP 6:207). From there it's several generations of Lord Graham's down to Agnes, wife of Walter Forrester.
It's interesting that you have received no answer since your first
posting about this on 16 July - it would seem easy enough to respond
with a copy-paste of notes within 11 days, as frequently done for other
questions regarding Richardson's books.

In this case it may be worth your while to consult Cynthia Neville's PhD
thesis, *The Earls of Strathearn from the twelfth to the mid fourteenth
century, with an edition of their written acts* (University of Aberdeen,
1983), available here:
http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.381152. She found no
evidence for the name or family of Robert's wife, and by the way
disputed the conclusion in SP over the second wife of his daughter
Annabilia (Neville considered this was David, not Patrick Graham).

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-07-27 03:51:27 UTC
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She found no evidence for the name or family of Robert's wife, and by
the way disputed the conclusion in SP over the second wife of his
daughter Annabilia
Scotland is a progressive country, but even there same-sex marriage was
not permitted in the medieval era - Annabilia may have had two husbands,
but she certainly had no wives.

Peter Stewart
j***@gmail.com
2017-07-27 11:53:15 UTC
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The only sources given are Dowden Chartulary of the Abbey of Lindores, and Scots Peerage 8 pp244-245.

Now, it is unlikely that the Chartulary provides the evidence, but it is certain that Scots Peerage does not, stating that his wife is unknown.

Not that it proves the connection, but Robert and this unnamed wife did have children named both Hugh and Annabelle which would be consistent with the naming practices at the time. (They also had children named for their paternal grandparents Gilbert and Maud)

Joecook
Peter Stewart
2017-07-27 12:25:15 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
The only sources given are Dowden Chartulary of the Abbey of Lindores, and Scots Peerage 8 pp244-245.
Now, it is unlikely that the Chartulary provides the evidence, but it is certain that Scots Peerage does not, stating that his wife is unknown.
Not that it proves the connection, but Robert and this unnamed wife did have children named both Hugh and Annabelle which would be consistent with the naming practices at the time. (They also had children named for their paternal grandparents Gilbert and Maud)
Cynthia Neville did not mention a daughter named Maud - where did you
find her?

I don't think anything much can be assumed from the names Hugh and
Annabel. The first is very common and the second not exactly rare, while
of course we cannot know what other male and female siblings may have
died young taking a maternal grandparent's name into obscurity.

Peter Stewart
j***@gmail.com
2017-07-27 12:28:42 UTC
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I don't disagree with you. It is just a curiosity. It is also a curiosity that a Google search for "Hugh of moray" and "strathearn" returns exactly two hits. This thread, and the fmg.ac site which says the wife is unknown. Despite appearing in Richardson's work it appears not to have been blindly copied widely.
j***@gmail.com
2017-07-27 12:38:23 UTC
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Wikipedia apparently once contained this note that was later removed and changed to "wife unknown"

"Robert, Earl of Strathearn married a daughter of Hugh de Moravia (or Sir Hugh Freskin) by a daughter of Duncan, Earl of Fife (this identification made by Andrew B. W. MacEwen. Her maritagium evidently included lands in Durie, Fife later granted by Reynold le Cheyne to their son Gilbert). "

Unfortunately Mr. MacEwan recently passed away, but he did most of his work through the Foundation of Medieval Genealogy so perhaps there was a paper written on this subject although I am not aware of one.

Joecoom
TGB
2017-07-29 13:28:15 UTC
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I don't disagree with you. It is just a curiosity. It is also a curiosity that a Google search for "Hugh of moray" and "strathearn" returns exactly two hits. This thread, and the fmg.ac site which says the wife is unknown. Despite appearing in Richardson's work it appears not to have been blindly copied widely.
I wonder if the attribution of an earl of Fife's daughter named Annabel
married to Hugh de Moravia has a solid basis in the first place. She is
not mentioned by Geoffrey Barrow in 'The earls of Fife in the 12th
century', *Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland* 87
(1952-1953) or by Murray Rose in 'Notes on the family of de Moravia, or
Moray', *Transactions of the Gaelic Society of Inverness* 25
(1901-1903), though this of course does not preclude her existence. If
it's not too much trouble, what sources are cited for her?
Peter Stewart
As I understand things, John Ravilious credited Andrew MacEwen with the identification of Hugh de Moray as the husband of Annabel of Fife back in 2007. While this is not certain, it does seem likely:

TSP viii p.245: "Gilbert, who is named with his brothers Hugh and Earl Malise in charters by the latter. Between the years 1266 and 1269, but not later, he, as son of Robert, Earl of Strathearn, received a grant from Reginald le Chene the younger of the lands of Durie in Fife*. He had also in 1268, when he had the rank of knighthood, a grant from his brother Earl Malise of the lands of Belnollo in Poulis parish (Charters of Inchaffray, 86, 288; cf. 159). It would appear that Belnollo afterwards belonged to the Buries of that Ilk, who were probably descended from this Sir Gilbert.
*This appears from an inventory of the writs of Durie of date about 1669, preserved in the General Register House, Edinburgh (Inventories of Titles, iii. No. 16). The entry is interesting and, the spelling being somewhat modernised, may be given at length:
'Charter by Adam of Kilconquhar, Earl of Carrick, confirming a charter by "Reynold le Cheine, son of Reynold le Cheine, son of Henry le Cheine," to Gilbert, son of Robert, Earl of Strathearn, of his lands of Durie in the shire of Scoonie in Fife, which lands were disponed by Duncan, son of Duncan, Earl of Fife, to Sir Hugh of .... in marriage with Annabella, his daughter, the charter confirmed being engrossed and both wanting dates. Witnesses (to the Earl of Carrick's grant), Robert, Bishop of Dunblane, Allan, abbot, and Hugh, prior of the "lie" (Inchaffray), Sir Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan, Sir (Malise), Earl of Strathearn, Sir William, Earl of Mar, Sir William of Brechin.'
The writ must be between 1266 and 1269".

Reginald's charter is now located at NRS, RH 9/4/3.

TSP ix p.89: "Annabella, married to Sir Hugh. . . . (Inv. of Titles, H.M. Reg. Ho., iii. 16)".
TGB
2017-07-30 02:58:39 UTC
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Post by TGB
Post by j***@gmail.com
I don't disagree with you. It is just a curiosity. It is also a curiosity that a Google search for "Hugh of moray" and "strathearn" returns exactly two hits. This thread, and the fmg.ac site which says the wife is unknown. Despite appearing in Richardson's work it appears not to have been blindly copied widely.
I wonder if the attribution of an earl of Fife's daughter named Annabel
married to Hugh de Moravia has a solid basis in the first place. She is
not mentioned by Geoffrey Barrow in 'The earls of Fife in the 12th
century', *Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland* 87
(1952-1953) or by Murray Rose in 'Notes on the family of de Moravia, or
Moray', *Transactions of the Gaelic Society of Inverness* 25
(1901-1903), though this of course does not preclude her existence. If
it's not too much trouble, what sources are cited for her?
Peter Stewart
TSP viii p.245: "Gilbert, who is named with his brothers Hugh and Earl Malise in charters by the latter. Between the years 1266 and 1269, but not later, he, as son of Robert, Earl of Strathearn, received a grant from Reginald le Chene the younger of the lands of Durie in Fife*. He had also in 1268, when he had the rank of knighthood, a grant from his brother Earl Malise of the lands of Belnollo in Poulis parish (Charters of Inchaffray, 86, 288; cf. 159). It would appear that Belnollo afterwards belonged to the Buries of that Ilk, who were probably descended from this Sir Gilbert.
'Charter by Adam of Kilconquhar, Earl of Carrick, confirming a charter by "Reynold le Cheine, son of Reynold le Cheine, son of Henry le Cheine," to Gilbert, son of Robert, Earl of Strathearn, of his lands of Durie in the shire of Scoonie in Fife, which lands were disponed by Duncan, son of Duncan, Earl of Fife, to Sir Hugh of .... in marriage with Annabella, his daughter, the charter confirmed being engrossed and both wanting dates. Witnesses (to the Earl of Carrick's grant), Robert, Bishop of Dunblane, Allan, abbot, and Hugh, prior of the "lie" (Inchaffray), Sir Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan, Sir (Malise), Earl of Strathearn, Sir William, Earl of Mar, Sir William of Brechin.'
The writ must be between 1266 and 1269".
Reginald's charter is now located at NRS, RH 9/4/3.
TSP ix p.89: "Annabella, married to Sir Hugh. . . . (Inv. of Titles, H.M. Reg. Ho., iii. 16)".
So is Robert's son Gilbert supposed to have had the same mother as his
brothers Hugh and Earl Malise, who were apparently passed over for this
grant in Fife from Reynold le Cheine?
Peter Stewart
Hi Peter,

According to TSP that is correct. Earl Malise was obviously the eldest son and heir to his father's estates; Hugh was a churchman and became prior of Inchaffray (Charters of Inchaffray, Nos. 86, 251); leaving Gilbert as heir to his mother's lands. This is just the sort of inheritance pattern found in numerous examples from the twelfth to fourteenth centuries in Scotland (and elsewhere) before primogeniture became the norm. As far as I can see there is no problem here.

I might add briefly at this point that I am working on several other pieces of circumstantial and charter evidence involving the Ardrossan and Garentully families that, when taken in conjunction with Reginald le Cheyne's charter, all but prove Andrew MacEwan's hypothesis regarding Earl Robert of Strathearn's wife. It is of some note here that Geoffrey Barrow misidentified Simon and Andrew de Garentully as members of the Quarrantilly family (The Kingdom of the Scots, pp.294-5), which they most certainly were not.

All the best,

TGB

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