Discussion:
Margrave Adalberto father of Oberto I
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Paulo Canedo
2017-06-01 18:16:19 UTC
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Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source about the House of Este. This particular connection is very interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this newsgroup with the book report them please. Also,
comments are welcome.
Peter Stewart
2017-06-01 23:04:13 UTC
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Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source about the House of Este. This particular connection is very interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this newsgroup with the book report them please. Also,
comments are welcome.
There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's
contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is
Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably
descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough
evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count)
in April 945 to pin down his origin.

Peter Stewart
Paulo Canedo
2017-06-02 12:47:57 UTC
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What argumenta do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their respectiv thesis.
Paulo Canedo
2017-06-02 17:31:03 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source about the House of Este. This particular connection is very interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this newsgroup with the book report them please. Also,
comments are welcome.
There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's
contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is
Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably
descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough
evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count)
in April 945 to pin down his origin.
Peter Stewart
What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their respective thesis.
Peter Stewart
2017-06-02 22:43:59 UTC
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Post by Paulo Canedo
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source about the House of Este. This particular connection is very interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this newsgroup with the book report them please. Also,
comments are welcome.
There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's
contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is
Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably
descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough
evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count)
in April 945 to pin down his origin.
Peter Stewart
What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their respective thesis.
There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book in
a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such
luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It is
not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily reverted
to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz, that is
simply inadmissable.

Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido of
Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. Guido was succeeded by his brother
Lamberto, who was obliged to fight a duel trying to prove that he was a
son of Marozia when his maternal half-brother King Hugo denied this.
Hugo claimed that Guido and Lamberto were both ring-ins. Lamberto lost,
then he was blinded and imprisoned. There is no possibility that Guido
had left a son named Adalberto who was by-passed for the paternal
inheritance of Lucca and Tuscany, and then overlooked by the chroniclers
who tell us about this family. In any case, in January 945 Marozia's
children transacted a charter together with some of their cousins in
which no Adalberto appears, and with no reference to any purported
rights of Oberto in their business.

In the vast literature on the subject of Oberto's origins more
substantial conjectures were raised, for instance attempting to link him
as a descendant to the Supponid dukes of Spoleto. This too is not
accepted today. Pallavicino's conjecture was based on Oberto's
possession of Luni, Tortona and Genoa and the recurrence of the name
Adalberto among his descendants - one of the two main lines of descent
from him is known from this name. The gastalds of Sorano were also
Adalberti, and geographically plausible antecessors for Oberto.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-06-02 23:17:09 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy
was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the
chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who
probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and
part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain
ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was
probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the
Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi
of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source
about the House of Este. This particular connection is very
interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este
male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself
male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the
House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female
generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the
theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this
newsgroup with the book report them please. Also,
comments are welcome.
There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's
contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is
Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably
descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough
evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count)
in April 945 to pin down his origin.
Peter Stewart
What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their
respective thesis.
There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book
in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such
luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It
is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily
reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz,
that is simply inadmissable.
Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido
of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. Guido was succeeded by his
brother Lamberto, who was obliged to fight a duel trying to prove that
he was a son of Marozia when his maternal half-brother King Hugo
denied this. Hugo claimed that Guido and Lamberto were both ring-ins.
Lamberto lost, then he was blinded and imprisoned. There is no
possibility that Guido had left a son named Adalberto who was
by-passed for the paternal inheritance of Lucca and Tuscany, and then
overlooked by the chroniclers who tell us about this family. In any
case, in January 945 Marozia's children transacted a charter together
with some of their cousins in which no Adalberto appears, and with no
reference to any purported rights of Oberto in their business.
In the vast literature on the subject of Oberto's origins more
substantial conjectures were raised, for instance attempting to link
him as a descendant to the Supponid dukes of Spoleto. This too is not
accepted today. Pallavicino's conjecture was based on Oberto's
possession of Luni, Tortona and Genoa and the recurrence of the name
Adalberto among his descendants - one of the two main lines of descent
from him is known from this name. The gastalds of Sorano were also
Adalberti, and geographically plausible antecessors for Oberto.
I should have added that this conjecture of Pallavicino was based on a
theory first proposed by Pietro Ferrari in *La chiesa di S.Bartolomeo
'de donnicato' vicino a Pontremoli, gli Adalberti e le origini
obertenghe* (1938), and developed by Ubaldo Formentini in 'La terza
dinastia dei conti di Parma e le origini obertenghe', *Archivio storico
per le provincie parmensi*, quarta serie 1 (1945-48).

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2017-06-03 05:31:52 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy
was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the
chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who
probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and
part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain
ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was
probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the
Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi
of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source
about the House of Este. This particular connection is very
interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este
male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself
male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the
House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female
generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the
theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this
newsgroup with the book report them please. Also,
comments are welcome.
There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's
contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is
Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably
descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough
evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count)
in April 945 to pin down his origin.
Peter Stewart
What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their
respective thesis.
There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book
in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such
luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It
is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily
reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz,
that is simply inadmissable.
Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido
of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons.
I should also have pointed out that this Adalbert of uncertain ancestry
was mistaken for the the father of Oberto I by Muratori - but he was
misidentifying the persons named in charters of a marquis Adalberto
whose father was Oberto the son of another Adalberto. These charters
were dated 13 March 1002 and 9 July 1011, and the Oberto in the middle
of the genealogical Adalberto sandwich was Oberto II, not Oberto I. We
have no evidence (beyond a guess from onomastics) to indicate that the
latter's father may have been named Adalberto; and as to what his rank
and title may have been, that is also left to guesswork - some
conjecture that he may have been the Adalberto who occurs as count of
Parma in May 921, but this is far from certain.

Peter Stewart

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