Post by Peter Stewart
Em sexta-feira, 2 de junho de 2017 00:04:19 UTC+1, Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart Post by Paulo Canedo
Dear followers of the newsgroup as you may know Oberto I of Italy
was ancestor of the Italian House of Este he is said by the
chronicles to be the son of a so called Margrave Adalbert who
probably possessed the march of Milan that compressed Lombardy and
part of Liguria. This so called Malgrave Adalbert is of uncertain
ancestry although you can find it quite widespread that he was
probably a son of Guido of Lucca and Marozia. According to the
Italian Wikipedia this theory originated with the book Gli Estensi
of Luciano Chiappini. This book seems to be a very good source
about the House of Este. This particular connection is very
interesting because if correct it would make the House of Este
male-line descendants of Bertha of Lorraine who was herself
male-line great-great-granddaughter of Charlemagne providing the
House of Este with a descent of Charlemagne with only ONE female
generation. I'm wondering however what are the reasons of the
theory that Adalberto was son of Guido. Can anyone in this
newsgroup with the book report them please. Also,
comments are welcome.
There is an enormous literature on this subject, and Chiappini's
contribution is not usually taken as very persuasive. More plausible is
Alessandro Pallavicino's suggestion (in 2005), that Oberto was probably
descended from the family of the gastalds of Sorano. There is not enough
evidence from Oberto's patrimony and his first appearance (as a count)
in April 945 to pin down his origin.
What arguments do Chiappini and Pallavicino to support their
There is no Chiappini thesis - he was writing a lightly-sourced book
in a popular series on great families (that includes volumes on such
luminaries as the Rockerfellers, Vanderbilts, Krupps and Fuggers). It
is not a profound study of the Este lineage. He rather summarily
reverted to a discredited idea discussed between Muratori and Leibniz,
that is simply inadmissable.
Your Adalbert of uncertain ancestry was certainly not a son of Guido
of Lucca and Marozia: they had no sons. Guido was succeeded by his
brother Lamberto, who was obliged to fight a duel trying to prove that
he was a son of Marozia when his maternal half-brother King Hugo
denied this. Hugo claimed that Guido and Lamberto were both ring-ins.
Lamberto lost, then he was blinded and imprisoned. There is no
possibility that Guido had left a son named Adalberto who was
by-passed for the paternal inheritance of Lucca and Tuscany, and then
overlooked by the chroniclers who tell us about this family. In any
case, in January 945 Marozia's children transacted a charter together
with some of their cousins in which no Adalberto appears, and with no
reference to any purported rights of Oberto in their business.
In the vast literature on the subject of Oberto's origins more
substantial conjectures were raised, for instance attempting to link
him as a descendant to the Supponid dukes of Spoleto. This too is not
accepted today. Pallavicino's conjecture was based on Oberto's
possession of Luni, Tortona and Genoa and the recurrence of the name
Adalberto among his descendants - one of the two main lines of descent
from him is known from this name. The gastalds of Sorano were also
Adalberti, and geographically plausible antecessors for Oberto.
per le provincie parmensi*, quarta serie 1 (1945-48).